DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
judgedredd
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:28 am

DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby judgedredd » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:42 am

Hello everyone,

Being new to this forum I apologize in advance if this topic has been discussed a million times, but I would rather speak for my personal scenario see if I can make a more informed decision.

I planned to take the LSAT in December 2011. In my practices, I was not getting the numbers I needed so I decided to postpone the LSAT until February and possibly postpone applications until 2013.

I could not stand the idea of not starting law school this year, and decided I was going to give it a shot. I wanted to get into Loyola, so I applied there, Kent, DePaul and yeah... JM.

To my surprise, for applying in March, I got accepted everywhere except for Loyola (I think they are trying to avoid the academic inbreeding thing, since I graduated from their undergrad). John Marshall is giving me 34K, DePaul 48K and Kent 60K (which, given the difference in tuition between DePaul and Kent, the scholarship would be equivalent between the two).

I had already sent my tuition deposit to DePaul to avoid losing my seat before the deadline. THEN I got word from Kent. I know Kent ranks higher in the national rankings, but... is it just a superior school in the IP sense? Is it superior overall? I don't like the idea of the main campus being IIT (not a very nice area there, I don't want to dread going to the main campus for my law school). I had already gotten used to the idea of going to DePaul...

... But I don't want to make a stupid mistake. Should I back up and go to Kent? I was also thinking of working my ass 1L so that I could transfer somewhere better from DePaul, so I am not closing my mind to the possibility of transfering.

Thank you in advance for your responses.

JD

(LSAT 158, GPA 3.4)
Last edited by judgedredd on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:48 am

OP: Your post is a bit confusing. Reads as if you were unable to take the LSAT, yet you applied & were admitted to several law schools with scholarship offers. When did you apply & what are your numbers (LSAT & GPA) ? Are you an URM ?

P.S. (My best guess is that you're around a 158/3.35 based on DePaul's offer, but a 163/3.5 based on Chicago-Kent's offer.)

judgedredd
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:28 am

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby judgedredd » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:54 am

CanadianWolf, thank you. It made some corrections so it is not that confusing.

158 LSAT score and 3.4 GPA.

I forgot to mention that the DePaul Scholarships is GPA conditional (above 2.2) whereas Kent's is not.

I am latina, so yes to URM.

User avatar
The Rover
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:06 am

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby The Rover » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:03 am

DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL PLANNING TO TRANSFER.

You will have to be in the top 10% of your class at DePaul to even have a chance at transferring somewhere worthwhile (you have a 90% of not being in the top 10%).

What you should really do is call DePaul and tell them that you are not coming, then retake the LSAT in October and apply as soon as you get your score back this fall.

If you refuse to listen to this advice, could you live at home while you went to DePaul/Kent to eliminate cost of living expenses?

judgedredd
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:28 am

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby judgedredd » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:07 am

The Rover wrote:DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL PLANNING TO TRANSFER.

You will have to be in the top 10% of your class at DePaul to even have a chance at transferring somewhere worthwhile (you have a 90% of not being in the top 10%).

What you should really do is call DePaul and tell them that you are not coming, then retake the LSAT in October and apply as soon as you get your score back this fall.

If you refuse to listen to this advice, could you live at home while you went to DePaul/Kent to eliminate cost of living expenses?


I did not say I was planning to transfer, I said I was not closing my mind to the possibility of doing so. And yes, I have the option of staying at home to eliminate living expenses.

I am also aware of the need to be in the top of the class to have the chance of transferring.

User avatar
The Rover
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:06 am

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby The Rover » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:09 am

Edit: Didn't notice stipulations
Last edited by The Rover on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby flem » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:35 am

judgedredd wrote:
I forgot to mention that the DePaul Scholarships is GPA conditional (above 2.2) whereas Kent's is not.

I am latina, so yes to URM.


What is the curve at DePaul?

And a URM should absolutely retake for better options.

User avatar
franklyscarlet
Posts: 2915
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:16 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby franklyscarlet » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:37 am

flem wrote:
judgedredd wrote:
I forgot to mention that the DePaul Scholarships is GPA conditional (above 2.2) whereas Kent's is not.

I am latina, so yes to URM.


What is the curve at DePaul?

And a URM should absolutely retake for better options.


Latina in not necessarily URM. I'm Latina and not URM. That being said, retake. Chicago is a tough market with two great schools already in it, plus michigan placing there.

User avatar
Ludo!
Posts: 4764
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:22 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:47 am

You definitely should retake and apply again next year. Even if you don't score any better, applying earlier will get you better results. Don't sell yourself short just because you can't stand the idea of waiting.

CanadianWolf
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:49 am

OP:Although retaking the LSAT & reapplying is solid advice, if you are intent on starting law school this cycle, then ask DePaul to match Chicago-Kent's offer.

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby flem » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:52 am

franklyscarlet wrote:
Latina in not necessarily URM. I'm Latina and not URM. That being said, retake. Chicago is a tough market with two great schools already in it, plus michigan placing there.


Yeah, I took it at face value honestly.

You'd best be finding out what the curve is at DePaul. 2.2 sounds really low but that could be median or worse for all anyone knows.

judgedredd
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:28 am

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby judgedredd » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:53 am

Ok,

I fully understand the Chicago market problem. I understand also that we all wish we could go to a T14 school, unfortunately, if we could all go it wouldn't be the T14 anymore now would it? that is why I am asking the question DePaul v. Kent, specifically.

User avatar
franklyscarlet
Posts: 2915
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:16 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby franklyscarlet » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:58 am

judgedredd wrote:Ok,

I fully understand the Chicago market problem. I understand also that we all wish we could go to a T14 school, unfortunately, if we could all go it wouldn't be the T14 anymore now would it? that is why I am asking the question DePaul v. Kent, specifically.


This seems unnecessarily defeatist. I would understand it if you had a far sub-3 gpa, but Your GPA is not terrible. A higher LSAT could do wonders, and you were already considering it.

User avatar
Ludo!
Posts: 4764
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:22 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:00 pm

There are nonT14 schools that would give you much a much better shot at getting a legal job in Chicago. Retake and apply early and you could at least be looking at Illinois or ND

helfer snooterbagon
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:04 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby helfer snooterbagon » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:14 pm

2011 Chicago Kent Grad here. Regarding your worry about the main campus, you will never have to go there if you do not want to. I never visited the main IIT campus. The other posters are right about it being a tough market. You will need to be in the top 10%, at least, to have a shot at most big law firms. A few require top 5%. If you are within the top 7% at the end of your first year you can grade onto law review. That seemed to be a big bump as well.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:50 pm

OP, maybe the actual data will open your eyes to the stark reality of the legal market. These schools are terrible options at the prices you are considering them at.

9 months after graduation, only 26.77% of the Chicago Kent c/o 2010 got jobs in firms of 50+, federal clerkships, government, or public interest jobs. For DePaul, that number is 25.61%. It is under 20% at John Marshall. Here is the data:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aik9aY0xMn8JdHZpRzRGNmpIVnFMMTJ0bXNRS0NBd3c&gid=6

Why do we draw a cutoff at firms of 50+? Because, with a few exceptions, that is where you could potentially make enough money to make a 140k+ investment worth it. Admittedly, there are firms under 50 attorneys that are good firms and pay well. Some small firms are really good places to work. But there are also some firms over 50 that pay like crap and treat their associates terribly, so it is probably about a wash.

It's not a perfect metric, but I think this "50+/Fed clerk/Gov/PI" category is roughly equivalent to the "Jobs that made the JD even remotely worth it" category. Do you like those odds?

You may be wondering, what is everyone else doing? I don't have time to do this for all three schools, but I broke the data down for Kent in another thread:

47 employed long-term "business and industry"
62 employed long-term in firms of 1-10
5 employed long-term in "academia"
27 are employed short term
25 who are unemployed or in grad school (which is often a result of not finding a job)

These categories account for 68% of the c/o 2010. It will be even worse for the c/o 2011.

Business and industry is basically "non-legal jobs." Firms of 1-10 are 9 times out of 10 going to pay shit, and I'll bet you about half of the people in that category are either solos or groups of students who banded together to start their own firm. Academia? Umm, okay.

Again, I concede that some of these might be good outcomes (not many). I wish I could tell you how many people at Kent got JD-required jobs based on this data, but the ABA doesn't require or report it anymore. I also wish I could tell you what the hell "business and industry" means, but its an amorphous term. It usually means bad jobs or jobs that one could have gotten without a JD; guess why the top schools send so few students into it? Sorry, but when you are a "law school" that purportedly trains people to be lawyers, there is a presumption that placement sucks if half your students can't even get a full-time job that uses that JD.


As you can see, if you go to a school like Kent, there is a very good chance you go work in a job that doesn't require you to use your JD. And even if you do, the odds are good that it will be be part-time, low pay, and maybe not even at a real "firm," but just as a solo or in some small conglomeration with other solos. Still want to pay 140k+ for that degree?

This isn't about "prestige" or elitism or whatever. It doesn't matter to me where a school is ranked; it matters how students do in getting jobs. T14 schools are the best because they place well. These schools you are looking at place miserably, yet charge the same prices as their UChicago/Northwestern counterparts up the street. How insane is that? You wouldn't pay Porsche money for a beat up Grand Am. So don't pay T14 money for a degree that, in all likelihood, isn't going to get you a halfway decent job.

User avatar
franklyscarlet
Posts: 2915
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:16 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby franklyscarlet » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:59 pm

romothesavior wrote:
You wouldn't pay Porsche money for a beat up Grand Am.


This is possibly the best analogy I've heard for this in quite awhile.

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby flem » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:14 pm

franklyscarlet wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
You wouldn't pay Porsche money for a beat up Grand Am.


This is possibly the best analogy I've heard for this in quite awhile.


+1

I've always said don't pay T14 money for a non-T14 education but that's so much more succinct.

User avatar
boredatwork
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:26 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby boredatwork » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:59 pm

That is a stupid analogy. A better analogy would be paying for the parts to create a grand am for the price of the parts to create a porsche.

User avatar
franklyscarlet
Posts: 2915
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:16 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby franklyscarlet » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:04 pm

boredatwork wrote:That is a stupid analogy. A better analogy would be paying for the parts to create a grand am for the price of the parts to create a porsche.


My students become this focused on complete accuracy in analogies all the time. It's way too complicated. Analogies are ruined when they collapse upon themselves.

User avatar
boredatwork
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:26 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby boredatwork » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:35 pm

Fair enough, I see your point. I guess I just couldn't find an eloquent way of saying that a T14 education gives better opportunity but not necessarily better results.

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby flem » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:39 pm

boredatwork wrote:Fair enough, I see your point. I guess I just couldn't find an eloquent way of saying that a T14 education gives better opportunity but not necessarily better results.


You're right! Except your odds of landing a great result are like, you know, 50-60% instead of 10%.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:40 pm

boredatwork wrote:Fair enough, I see your point. I guess I just couldn't find an eloquent way of saying that a T14 education gives better opportunity but not necessarily better results.

Same with the Porsche-Grand Am example. Maybe the Porsche is a dud and breaks down. Maybe the Grand Am is a Transformer that saves humanity from destruction from a mechanical alien race.

Unlikely though.

User avatar
boredatwork
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:26 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby boredatwork » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:03 pm

flem wrote:
boredatwork wrote:Fair enough, I see your point. I guess I just couldn't find an eloquent way of saying that a T14 education gives better opportunity but not necessarily better results.


You're right! Except your odds of landing a great result are like, you know, 50-60% instead of 10%.


True, 10% is a little generous for Biglaw, but more like 25% for a job that can service your debt. I guess if I was in OP's situation I would retake. I can live with the risk reward of my chosen school but I maxed out my LSAT retakes and do have a sub 3.0 (LSAC, not cumulative), but probably if I had the option I would do as everyone above has said. Considering you want to go to Loyola, if you increase your LSAT you could get a significant scholarship from Loyola, and get some T1 acceptances, then be able to make your decision from a stronger position.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: DePaul v. Kent (Chicago)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:35 pm

boredatwork wrote:True, 10% is a little generous for Biglaw, but more like 25% for a job that can service your debt.

It boggles my mind that people are fully aware of the debt, the consequence of the debt, and the odds of getting a job that would allow you to effectively service the debt, and still go.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bach-City, Emilysni88, Thomas Hagan, ESQ. and 4 guests