Chicago vs Minnesota

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Lekal
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Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Lekal » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:21 am

I could really use the feedback to propel me to a final decision
-It'd be Chicago at sticker and Minn at $35k/yr scholarship. Cost of Attendance= ~217k at Chicago and ~87k at Minn, taking the school's numbers at face value. I get that there are very few circumstances under which >200k debt for law school is ok. I keep going back and forth on whether Chicago is one of them.
-I want to practice in the Midwest
-I have $0 in undergraduate debt
-I'm not sold on gunning for Biglaw.
-I have no other T14 (or T20) options with money. NYU at sticker, but I have no interest in the New York market.

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rayiner
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:29 am

Lekal wrote:I could really use the feedback to propel me to a final decision
-It'd be Chicago at sticker and Minn at $35k/yr scholarship. Cost of Attendance= ~217k at Chicago and ~87k at Minn, taking the school's numbers at face value. I get that there are very few circumstances under which >200k debt for law school is ok. I keep going back and forth on whether Chicago is one of them.
-I want to practice in the Midwest
-I have $0 in undergraduate debt
-I'm not sold on gunning for Biglaw.
-I have no other T14 (or T20) options with money. NYU at sticker, but I have no interest in the New York market.


No in-between options? Say Michigan with $$$?

$90k of debt at UMN is not worth it. It's still $1,000/month to pay off after school.

What do you want to do with your legal career? Realize that big law is the entry point to a lot of the other more interesting jobs.

Lekal
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Lekal » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:34 am

"Litigate" is the short answer to that. I'm not sure what field- appellate advocacy, IP, and criminal law are all on the radar. I'm open to biglaw- especially as an opening to other fields, as you described- I just am not sure Chicago's (from my reviewing of the statistics undeniably) better placement into biglaw is/should be a trump card for me.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:02 am

Have you asked Minnesota for more scholarship money in light of your Chicago off-the-waitlist (and, therefore, later) acceptance ?

P.S. Although "not gunning for biglaw", you may have to in order to pay off $217,000 of student loan debt unless you qualify for IBR/LRAP type programs. Before deciding, you need to investigate Chicago's loan repayment options based on earnings & job type.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:54 am

Lekal wrote:"Litigate" is the short answer to that. I'm not sure what field- appellate advocacy, IP, and criminal law are all on the radar. I'm open to biglaw- especially as an opening to other fields, as you described- I just am not sure Chicago's (from my reviewing of the statistics undeniably) better placement into biglaw is/should be a trump card for me.

1. Chicago is definitely as close to biglaw secure as you can get. At Minnesota you will have to fight to even keep biglaw on the table.

2. Chicago's LRAP is really great if you plan on not going into biglaw.

Lekal
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Lekal » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:49 am

My main issue with Chicago is the numbers I'm looking at below, taken from a financial aid calculator and assuming I'm covering the loans with an unsubsidized Stafford and a Grad Plus loan. The salaries it estimates would be necessary are staggering to me- there's no way I'm going to be making that kind of money out of law school, no matter what kind of cushy biglaw job I land.

Loan Balance: $155,805.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $162,296.88
Loan Interest Rate: 7.90%
Loan Fees: 4.00%
Loan Term: 10 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00
Enrollment Status: Still in School
Degree Program: Lawyer (LLB or JD)
Total Years in College: 3 years
Average Debt per Year: $51,935.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $1,960.54
Number of Payments: 120

Cumulative Payments: $235,265.47
Total Interest Paid: $79,460.47
Estimated Salary Required: $235,264.80

Loan Balance: $61,500.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $62,121.21
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Fees: 1.00%
Loan Term: 10 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00
Enrollment Status: Still in School
Degree Program: Lawyer (LLB or JD)
Total Years in College: 3 years
Average Debt per Year: $20,500.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $714.89
Number of Payments: 120

Cumulative Payments: $85,787.31
Total Interest Paid: $24,287.31
Estimated Salary Required: $85,786.80

CanadianWolf
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:51 am

The liklihood of paid summer employment is higher from Chicago than from Minnesota--so that might lower the total COA for Chicago.

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StrictlyBusiness
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby StrictlyBusiness » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:55 am

Lekal wrote:My main issue with Chicago is the numbers I'm looking at below, taken from a financial aid calculator and assuming I'm covering the loans with an unsubsidized Stafford and a Grad Plus loan. The salaries it estimates would be necessary are staggering to me- there's no way I'm going to be making that kind of money out of law school, no matter what kind of cushy biglaw job I land.

Loan Balance: $155,805.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $162,296.88
Loan Interest Rate: 7.90%
Loan Fees: 4.00%
Loan Term: 10 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00
Enrollment Status: Still in School
Degree Program: Lawyer (LLB or JD)
Total Years in College: 3 years
Average Debt per Year: $51,935.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $1,960.54
Number of Payments: 120

Cumulative Payments: $235,265.47
Total Interest Paid: $79,460.47
Estimated Salary Required: $235,264.80

Loan Balance: $61,500.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $62,121.21
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Fees: 1.00%
Loan Term: 10 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00
Enrollment Status: Still in School
Degree Program: Lawyer (LLB or JD)
Total Years in College: 3 years
Average Debt per Year: $20,500.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $714.89
Number of Payments: 120

Cumulative Payments: $85,787.31
Total Interest Paid: $24,287.31
Estimated Salary Required: $85,786.80


I don't know how that calculator works, but there is no way that type of salary would be necessary. I've calculated out my debt options many different ways, and I've never had an issue paying back sticker+interest anywhere in less than 10 years if you stay in biglaw for 5-7.

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Nelson
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Nelson » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:58 am

Lekal wrote:I could really use the feedback to propel me to a final decision
-It'd be Chicago at sticker and Minn at $35k/yr scholarship. Cost of Attendance= ~217k at Chicago and ~87k at Minn, taking the school's numbers at face value. I get that there are very few circumstances under which >200k debt for law school is ok. I keep going back and forth on whether Chicago is one of them.
-I want to practice in the Midwest
-I have $0 in undergraduate debt
-I'm not sold on gunning for Biglaw.
-I have no other T14 (or T20) options with money. NYU at sticker, but I have no interest in the New York market.

What is your GPA/LSAT? Sounds like you're a reverse splitter, so retaking and reapplying next year could give you better options like a lower T14 with more money.

Lekal
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Lekal » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:59 am

3.76, 173

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Nelson
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Nelson » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:03 am

Lekal wrote:3.76, 173

You should have blanketed the T14 so you would have better offers to leverage Chicago with. I would straight out ask Chicago for more money (I have your numbers and got a decent amount just by asking). If they won't offer you anything, reapplying broadly early next cycle would give you better options. If these are your only options, you underperformed.

EDIT: If you're locked into the midwest, you should consider EDing to Northwestern for the full ride next year. You're right in the range of people who got it this year.

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Ludo!
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:05 am

Do you want to work in Minnesota? If you're fine with practicing in Minnesota for the rest of your life then MN is fine, but if you want to practice anywhere else in the Midwest go to Chicago. I wouldn't worry so much about the debt when you're talking about a huge jump in job prospects

Paul Campos
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:07 pm

With those numbers Minnesota should be paying you. That scholarship offer is weak. Agree with the recommendation that you reapply, blanket the T-14, (and a good number of schools in the next tier) and come up with much better money options than what you're looking at. ED Northwestern for sure.

Given your numbers you shouldn't pay sticker anywhere other than YSH. You should get something close to a free ride from either a lower T-14 or a school at the next level. As of now you'd be overpaying into a declining market.

Lekal
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Lekal » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:37 pm

You should get something close to a free ride from either a lower T-14 or a school at the next level.


Well, I have a free ride at Iowa, and very nearly at Washington & Lee. I haven't been considering either because of the attached stipulations and (for W&L) it's nowhere near my desired practice area.

dap2
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby dap2 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:07 pm

Not sure what calculator you used, but most of them state something like this:

"This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans."

Not suggesting you should pay that much for Chicago, but obviously at a higher salary paying more than 10% towards loans won't be a major hardship.

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rayiner
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:14 pm

Lekal wrote:"Litigate" is the short answer to that. I'm not sure what field- appellate advocacy, IP, and criminal law are all on the radar. I'm open to biglaw- especially as an opening to other fields, as you described- I just am not sure Chicago's (from my reviewing of the statistics undeniably) better placement into biglaw is/should be a trump card for me.


If you want to do appellate advocacy or IP, then you need to do some big law equivalent job, and Chicago's placement should be a trump card for you. Appellate advocacy is a phenomenally competitive and prestige-conscious field of the law. We're talking about a field where some people will look down on you for going to Chicago instead of Harvard.

timbs4339
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:34 pm

rayiner wrote:
Lekal wrote:"Litigate" is the short answer to that. I'm not sure what field- appellate advocacy, IP, and criminal law are all on the radar. I'm open to biglaw- especially as an opening to other fields, as you described- I just am not sure Chicago's (from my reviewing of the statistics undeniably) better placement into biglaw is/should be a trump card for me.


If you want to do appellate advocacy or IP, then you need to do some big law equivalent job, and Chicago's placement should be a trump card for you. Appellate advocacy is a phenomenally competitive and prestige-conscious field of the law. We're talking about a field where some people will look down on you for going to Chicago instead of Harvard.


+1. You'll have a better shot at the more prestigious criminal law positions too.

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rayiner
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:34 pm

Nelson wrote:
Lekal wrote:3.76, 173

You should have blanketed the T14 so you would have better offers to leverage Chicago with. I would straight out ask Chicago for more money (I have your numbers and got a decent amount just by asking). If they won't offer you anything, reapplying broadly early next cycle would give you better options. If these are your only options, you underperformed.

EDIT: If you're locked into the midwest, you should consider EDing to Northwestern for the full ride next year. You're right in the range of people who got it this year.


Yeah, 173/3.76 should be in full-ride range for NU, or at least $30k/year range, and would leave many of the same options on the table as Chicago, though you'll have to do better in school to get appellate advocacy.

Lekal
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Lekal » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:45 pm

At the moment I'm trying to push both schools for a better offer and seriously considering the 're-app next year' suggestion. Having not previously considered that option, I don't have a good handle on any complications that might result (the year off looking bad on my applications, having to re-get recommendations, do I need to retake the LSAT, etc). Does anyone have experience going that route that wouldn't mind me pestering them with PMs while I figure this out?

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Ludo!
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:56 pm

Lekal wrote:At the moment I'm trying to push both schools for a better offer and seriously considering the 're-app next year' suggestion. Having not previously considered that option, I don't have a good handle on any complications that might result (the year off looking bad on my applications, having to re-get recommendations, do I need to retake the LSAT, etc). Does anyone have experience going that route that wouldn't mind me pestering them with PMs while I figure this out?


There are no negative consequences for waiting a year. Nobody will think twice about the year off, your recommendation letters stay in the system, your LSAT is good for several years.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue May 01, 2012 10:36 am

I say go Chicago. UMN's big law placement is atrocious, you'll need to be in the top quarter of your class to even get them to talk to you. Worst of all the degree won't carry anywhere outside the tri-state area. Chicago is absolutely worth the debt in this instance, don't be swayed by the relatively low COA at UMN.
Last edited by rickgrimes69 on Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 02, 2012 2:31 am

You should either be 1) going to school at a solid T20ish regional for completely free, 2) going to a T6 at sticker, or 3) going to a lower T14 with a substantial scholarship.

UMN doesn't fit the bill. Chicago wins this easily.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Helmholtz » Wed May 02, 2012 2:38 am

romothesavior wrote:You should either be 1) going to school at a solid T20ish regional for completely free, 2) going to a T6 at sticker, or 3) going to a lower T14 with a substantial scholarship.

UMN doesn't fit the bill. Chicago wins this easily.


I agree. OP, I know somebody who had more money from Minnesota, but a small scholarship with UMich. Went to UMich and has never regretted it (now a 2L/3L). I think UChicago is an easy pick here. If you don't want to do biglaw, the LRAP is insanely good; if you do want to do biglaw, you can't do much better than UChicago.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby Tom Joad » Wed May 02, 2012 2:39 am

If you are really debt averse you have to negotiate with UM for more money. With your stats you should get a full ride and stipend. My buddy with a 4.22 168 got a full ride and stipend from them.

JasonR
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Re: Chicago vs Minnesota

Postby JasonR » Wed May 02, 2012 5:07 am

Reapply in September.




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