Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

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Geneva
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Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Geneva » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:32 pm

I don't understand why some law firms even apply different hiring standards to SLS grads than to HLS and YLS grads. For example, "only the top 10% of the class will be considered, except at Harvard and Yale": http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecare ... iring.html

I understand that Harvard/Yale (may) have more lay prestige than Stanford, but it scares me when people in the legal field seem to put HY in a different category than S. Opinions on 1) how true this is, and 2) if it's going to change?
Thanks!

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rayiner
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:33 pm

Geneva wrote:I don't understand why some law firms even apply different hiring standards to SLS grads than to HLS and YLS grads. For example, "only the top 10% of the class will be considered, except at Harvard and Yale": http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecare ... iring.html

I understand that Harvard/Yale (may) have more lay prestige than Stanford, but it scares me when people in the legal field seem to put HY in a different category than S. Opinions on 1) how true this is, and 2) if it's going to change?
Thanks!


"We won't hire people who are not in the top 10 percent of their class, unless it's Harvard or Yale. We're very grade conscious, even when we hire someone laterally."

He's clearly speaking informally. "Harvard and Yale" is usually just short-hand for "Harvard, Yale, and Stanford." Even the D.C. firms I've talked to seem to treat "HYS" as a unit as a practical matter, and they're as snobby as they come.

Geneva
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Geneva » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:39 pm

rayiner wrote:
Geneva wrote:I don't understand why some law firms even apply different hiring standards to SLS grads than to HLS and YLS grads. For example, "only the top 10% of the class will be considered, except at Harvard and Yale": http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecare ... iring.html

I understand that Harvard/Yale (may) have more lay prestige than Stanford, but it scares me when people in the legal field seem to put HY in a different category than S. Opinions on 1) how true this is, and 2) if it's going to change?
Thanks!


"We won't hire people who are not in the top 10 percent of their class, unless it's Harvard or Yale. We're very grade conscious, even when we hire someone laterally."

He's clearly speaking informally. "Harvard and Yale" is usually just short-hand for "Harvard, Yale, and Stanford." Even the D.C. firms I've talked to seem to treat "HYS" as a unit as a practical matter, and they're as snobby as they come.


i hope you are right! that is reassuring. also, yale/stanford actually seem to have more similar placement stats than harvard and yale. this may be caused by self-selection, but is still reassuring. also, this may be a silly ignorant question, but i thought that neither yale nor stanford ranks? i guess for clerkships they have to release a rank, but otherwise...?

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BioEBear2010
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby BioEBear2010 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:40 pm

Neither school ranks, but one can estimate the approximate grade distributions.

Geneva
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Geneva » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:50 pm

BioEBear2010 wrote:Neither school ranks, but one can estimate the approximate grade distributions.


don't they have to rank students for clerkships? e.g. i know boalt doesn't rank except for clerkships, and swears the students to secrecy
also: huge relief.

abl
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby abl » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:09 pm

Nope, they don't rank for clerkships either. There's no way of calculating rank at S or Y.

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soj
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby soj » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:11 pm

Stanford doesn't rank or assign GPAs for any purpose, but judges see plenty of clerkship applications from Stanford every year so many of them will know based on your transcript roughly how well you did in classes relative to your peers.

Geneva
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Geneva » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:13 pm

abl wrote:Nope, they don't rank for clerkships either. There's no way of calculating rank at S or Y.


This makes me so happy. How about at Harvard? Just curious

09042014
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:15 pm

Just having a stupidly inflated GPA system is better IMO. Several firms who interview me off campus had no idea what to make of my GPA, but probably overestimated my class rank by a fair margin.

Geneva
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Geneva » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:54 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Just having a stupidly inflated GPA system is better IMO. Several firms who interview me off campus had no idea what to make of my GPA, but probably overestimated my class rank by a fair margin.


Ha, nice. I think having grades can be better, but I don't trust myself to be above median, especially at top schools. I've heard from several people that law school grading can be quite arbitrary, especially at the margin. Just curious, what is your GPA system/how inflated?
Last edited by Geneva on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:55 pm

Geneva wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Just having a stupidly inflated GPA system is better IMO. Several firms who interview me off campus had no idea what to make of my GPA, but probably overestimated my class rank by a fair margin.


Ha, nice. I think having grades can be better, but I don't trust myself to be above median, especially at top schools. I've heard from several people that law school grading can be quite arbitrary, especially at the margins. Just curious, what is your GPA system/how inflated/does NU rank?


3.4 median but top 10% is liek 3.8-3.85.

abacus
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby abacus » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:03 pm

rayiner wrote:
Geneva wrote:I don't understand why some law firms even apply different hiring standards to SLS grads than to HLS and YLS grads. For example, "only the top 10% of the class will be considered, except at Harvard and Yale": http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecare ... iring.html

I understand that Harvard/Yale (may) have more lay prestige than Stanford, but it scares me when people in the legal field seem to put HY in a different category than S. Opinions on 1) how true this is, and 2) if it's going to change?
Thanks!


"We won't hire people who are not in the top 10 percent of their class, unless it's Harvard or Yale. We're very grade conscious, even when we hire someone laterally."

He's clearly speaking informally. "Harvard and Yale" is usually just short-hand for "Harvard, Yale, and Stanford." Even the D.C. firms I've talked to seem to treat "HYS" as a unit as a practical matter, and they're as snobby as they come.


Do non-biglaw employers see it as "HYS" too? Or do they see HY as a distinct unit? Since most people stay at firms for just 3-5 years, is S at a disadvantage due to its smaller class size and slightly less powerful brand? (I'm considering H v. S and am a bit concerned that S doesn't give as much post-biglaw flexibility on the East Coast)

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:09 pm

abacus wrote:
Do non-biglaw employers see it as "HYS" too? Or do they see HY as a distinct unit? Since most people stay at firms for just 3-5 years, is S at a disadvantage due to its smaller class size and slightly less powerful brand? (I'm considering H v. S and am a bit concerned that S doesn't give as much post-biglaw flexibility on the East Coast)


Who told you that Stanford is a less powerful brand on the east coast? That's clearly not true.

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rayiner
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:24 pm

abacus wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Geneva wrote:I don't understand why some law firms even apply different hiring standards to SLS grads than to HLS and YLS grads. For example, "only the top 10% of the class will be considered, except at Harvard and Yale": http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecare ... iring.html

I understand that Harvard/Yale (may) have more lay prestige than Stanford, but it scares me when people in the legal field seem to put HY in a different category than S. Opinions on 1) how true this is, and 2) if it's going to change?
Thanks!


"We won't hire people who are not in the top 10 percent of their class, unless it's Harvard or Yale. We're very grade conscious, even when we hire someone laterally."

He's clearly speaking informally. "Harvard and Yale" is usually just short-hand for "Harvard, Yale, and Stanford." Even the D.C. firms I've talked to seem to treat "HYS" as a unit as a practical matter, and they're as snobby as they come.


Do non-biglaw employers see it as "HYS" too? Or do they see HY as a distinct unit? Since most people stay at firms for just 3-5 years, is S at a disadvantage due to its smaller class size and slightly less powerful brand? (I'm considering H v. S and am a bit concerned that S doesn't give as much post-biglaw flexibility on the East Coast)


I worked at the FCC my 1L summer, and while I was there the Chairman (HLS) announced his two new deputies (YLS) and (SLS). Make of that what you will.

concurrent fork
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby concurrent fork » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:29 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
abacus wrote:
Do non-biglaw employers see it as "HYS" too? Or do they see HY as a distinct unit? Since most people stay at firms for just 3-5 years, is S at a disadvantage due to its smaller class size and slightly less powerful brand? (I'm considering H v. S and am a bit concerned that S doesn't give as much post-biglaw flexibility on the East Coast)


Who told you that Stanford is a less powerful brand on the east coast? That's clearly not true.

S certainly doesn't have as much lay prestige in east coast markets, but I doubt that translates into significantly different exit options from biglaw. You can't really prove it either way though since it's impossible to account for self-selection.

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rayiner
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:50 pm

One has to remember that Stanford Law has been in the top echelon of law schools for 40 years (along with Harvard, Yale, Chicago, and Columbia). That is for longer than NYU has been considered a near-peer to Columbia, which is a belief well-entrenched in the legal community by now.

abacus
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby abacus » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:25 pm

.
Last edited by abacus on Thu May 24, 2012 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

imchuckbass58
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:31 pm

The quote is also blatant BS, since Quinn hires well into top 1/3, and even some folks just above median at CCN.

Napt
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Napt » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:51 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
abacus wrote:
Do non-biglaw employers see it as "HYS" too? Or do they see HY as a distinct unit? Since most people stay at firms for just 3-5 years, is S at a disadvantage due to its smaller class size and slightly less powerful brand? (I'm considering H v. S and am a bit concerned that S doesn't give as much post-biglaw flexibility on the East Coast)


Who told you that Stanford is a less powerful brand on the east coast? That's clearly not true.

It actually is true.

bdubs
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby bdubs » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:58 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:The quote is also blatant BS, since Quinn hires well into top 1/3, and even some folks just above median at CCN.


This.

slsorhls
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby slsorhls » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:08 pm

Anyone want to email them and call them out on that quote? Anyone from SLS who can attest that they don't care about grades when hiring SLS students?

I've also heard that in the past there were in fact grade cutoffs applied to Stanford. I don't know if that also occurred at Harvard before grade reform.

09042014
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:13 pm

They hire around top third at NW.

Geneva
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Geneva » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:11 pm

slsorhls wrote:Anyone want to email them and call them out on that quote? Anyone from SLS who can attest that they don't care about grades when hiring SLS students?

I've also heard that in the past there were in fact grade cutoffs applied to Stanford. I don't know if that also occurred at Harvard before grade reform.


The grade cutoff aspect is super depressing to me. Please tell me grades are no longer relevant at HYS except for clerkships/the most elite firms/academia?

bdubs
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby bdubs » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:30 pm

Geneva wrote:
slsorhls wrote:Anyone want to email them and call them out on that quote? Anyone from SLS who can attest that they don't care about grades when hiring SLS students?

I've also heard that in the past there were in fact grade cutoffs applied to Stanford. I don't know if that also occurred at Harvard before grade reform.


The grade cutoff aspect is super depressing to me. Please tell me grades are no longer relevant at HYS except for clerkships/the most elite firms/academia?


Grades will matter at least somewhat no matter where you go. Not sure what your definition of "super elite" is though. I'm sure there are some firms that are happy to pick up anyone with straight Ps at SLS.

Geneva
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Re: Why are "Harvard and Yale", but not "HYS"?

Postby Geneva » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:10 pm

bdubs wrote:
imchuckbass58 wrote:The quote is also blatant BS, since Quinn hires well into top 1/3, and even some folks just above median at CCN.


This.


This is encouraging and scary at the same time. Scary because it is really hard to know how to separate fact from fiction in this profession. I would expect that at least law firms would be *somewhat* straightforward about the required credentials to work for them--if only to save their own time and money...




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