Chicago vs HLS? (No $) Forum

[englawyer]

My SO will be probably be finishing her program at the same time as me (3 more years), so realistically I won't know where I'm headed long-term in time for EIP consideration

i hate to be the bearer of bad news but this is rather problematic.

chances are, you will have to choose your destination city about 1.5 years from today (summer 2013). you will line up something through oci/eip which will lead to a summer internship, which will lead to an offer. you can do 3L OCI, but its rather sparse and there is no guarantee you can switch, so you will probably end up going to wherever you ended up for 2L OCI. and if you have the 2L offer, it is not worth forgoing for the hope of job searching after 3L graduation.

so either you will have to undertake a risky post 3L job search with little chance of biglaw, or your s/o will have to end up in your chosen city even if she can't find an academic job there. i would address this conflict before you decide on either school.

one possibility is a clerkship, which would have you doing your full time job search over 3 yrs from now (during the clerkship post-graduation). but that would require top grades and is by no means guaranteed at either school.

[09042014]

Also, if SO says 3 years til PhD, it's probably 5.

[Jay Obee]

I think you should go to Boston for three years. Your SO will be fine. If she gets lonely, I'm sure the fact that you wanted the school ranked 2 higher in USNWR will comfort her and meet her physical needs over the next three years. Also, there are plenty of guys at Chicago and in her cohort, with whom she has very little in common, to keep her from getting lonely, so it really will not be a big deal. What school did you say she was in? Does she have any hobbies?

Also, Desert Fox is right about it being five years.

[madrigal]

I actually hadn't considered asking Chicago for money - I guess I had assumed that as a waitlist admit, there wouldn't be any scholarship money to give out. I was open with the admissions dean I met about considering HLS, and they also know that my SO is here (her department wrote the law school a letter after I landed on the waitlist). Is UChicago the kind of school that can be leveraged for money like that? I got the sense that they consider Harvard to be a peer school.

I know that the timing isn't perfect from a relationship standpoint, but this is something that ultimately I'm doing for myself, and I'm not going to make a choice I'm not happy with. If I take a 2L firm job in Chicago and am working there for a while after 3L, then so be it, there are worse problems to have! You guys are right in that she could easily (or even likely) be here longer than three years. The relationship comments are fair game; this is a serious consideration for me given that I really did like HLS and think I would have a great experience there. I want to make sure I leave myself with the most options down the road, especially with the kind of money/debt involved.

[AspiringAcademic]

Having seen a large number of friends go long-distance for a variety of grad programs, I'd be a tad less optimistic than kwais and some of the others. Plane tickets are expensive, travel is inconvenient, both parties are busy, skype really isn't the same etc etc. I've seen several otherwise happy couples break up or nearly break up when the reality of "we'll see each other twice in the next 3 months, and each time is going to be hard" sets in. Some cope better than others, of course.

Echoing the above:
Your job prospects are probably not greatly altered either way.
Definitely try negotiating with Chicago; they've been very generous this year. Even a 10k scholarship might alter your calculus.
Your total cost of attendance (even absent scholarship) is likely noticeably lower at Chicago. Hyde park is cheaper than Cambridge, living with an SO is cheaper than living alone or with a roommate, and an absence of plane tickets is cheaper than many plane tickets.

[soj]

You should only do this if you were considering doing it regardless of your SO, but if you deferred admission and worked for a few years, perhaps then your SO will have a better idea of where she is headed after her PhD by the time you do OCI. If you and your parents are just barely too wealthy to qualify for need-based aid, entering a higher age bracket might help with money at Harvard.

Just a suggestion. It sounds like your SO is still far from done her PhD anyway, so it's probably not relevant to your situation.

Do you have any other T14 acceptances with money? Even if Chicago knows it's between Chicago and Harvard, there's probably no harm in bringing them up when negotiating.

[Jay Obee]

Madrigal is pretty cavalier about the idea of putting his relationship at risk for the extra 2 places in the rankings, so I'd guess that he isn't really that serious about his SO. I really don't think anyone who saw that their SO was the one they intend to marry, etc., would even consider being apart for three years when an option like Chicago was on the table. If that's the case, then OP should definitely go. Put that final nail in the relationship coffin. It is best for both of them. Once his noncommittal butt is out of the picture, some serious dude can move in. I know I would have no problem doing that. If I was in Chicago, as soon as I found out about the long distance relationship, I'd be all, "Wow, I can't believe anyone would leave someone like you behind. I wouldn't have left you for a second." I'd make her feel wanted, for once. Easy pickins.

[Doorkeeper]

Having seen a large number of friends go long-distance for a variety of grad programs, I'd be a tad less optimistic than kwais and some of the others. Plane tickets are expensive, travel is inconvenient, both parties are busy, skype really isn't the same etc etc. I've seen several otherwise happy couples break up or nearly break up when the reality of "we'll see each other twice in the next 3 months, and each time is going to be hard" sets in. Some cope better than others, of course.

Echoing the above:
Your job prospects are probably not greatly altered either way.
Definitely try negotiating with Chicago; they've been very generous this year. Even a 10k scholarship might alter your calculus.
Your total cost of attendance (even absent scholarship) is likely noticeably lower at Chicago. Hyde park is cheaper than Cambridge, living with an SO is cheaper than living alone or with a roommate, and an absence of plane tickets is cheaper than many plane tickets.

I agree with both sections of this post.

[madrigal]

Madrigal is pretty cavalier about the idea of putting his relationship at risk for the extra 2 places in the rankings, so I'd guess that he isn't really that serious about his SO. I really don't think anyone who saw that their SO was the one they intend to marry, etc., would even consider being apart for three years when an option like Chicago was on the table. If that's the case, then OP should definitely go. Put that final nail in the relationship coffin. It is best for both of them. Once his noncommittal butt is out of the picture, some serious dude can move in. I know I would have no problem doing that. If I was in Chicago, as soon as I found out about the long distance relationship, I'd be all, "Wow, I can't believe anyone would leave someone like you behind. I wouldn't have left you for a second." I'd make her feel wanted, for once. Easy pickins.

I think I was pretty clear that I'm considering going to Harvard because I visited and was impressed both with the campus and the people I met, and think it's a good fit for me. The fact is, two USNWR places apart or not, many people consider Harvard Law to be in a higher tier than Chicago, and I'm trying to get a sense of what that actually means for someone coming out the other end, particularly in a place where "University of Chicago" isn't a household name.

[madrigal]

I think I was pretty clear that I'm considering going to Harvard because I visited and was impressed both with the campus and the people I met, and think it's a good fit for me. The fact is, two USNWR places apart or not, many people consider Harvard Law to be in a higher tier than Chicago, and I'm trying to get a sense of what that actually means for someone coming out the other end, particularly in a place where "University of Chicago" isn't a household name.

And this thread has been extremely helpful, thank you to all who have replied!

Judging by the responses, I may as well try and ask Chicago for money, although the May 1 deposit deadline is looming pretty close here.

[emkay625]

I was in a long-distance relationship for 4 years. It's tough. I vote Chicago.

[Dany]

People got up to $54k off the WL last year (that I know of - could be more). Absolutely negotiate and don't take no for an answer.

[dresden doll]

As for portability, SO in the city is always a good tie for job purposes.

I don't know about this, honestly. I've known a number of people who invented phantom SOs to overcome the ties issue and I sometimes wonder whether firms are catching up to this.

[Dany]

As for portability, SO in the city is always a good tie for job purposes.

I don't know about this, honestly. I've known a number of people who invented phantom SOs to overcome the ties issue and I sometimes wonder whether firms are catching up to this.

/buys self a ring

[Emma.]

Madrigal is pretty cavalier about the idea of putting his relationship at risk for the extra 2 places in the rankings, so I'd guess that he isn't really that serious about his SO. I really don't think anyone who saw that their SO was the one they intend to marry, etc., would even consider being apart for three years when an option like Chicago was on the table. If that's the case, then OP should definitely go. Put that final nail in the relationship coffin. It is best for both of them. Once his noncommittal butt is out of the picture, some serious dude can move in. I know I would have no problem doing that. If I was in Chicago, as soon as I found out about the long distance relationship, I'd be all, "Wow, I can't believe anyone would leave someone like you behind. I wouldn't have left you for a second." I'd make her feel wanted, for once. Easy pickins.

I think I was pretty clear that I'm considering going to Harvard because I visited and was impressed both with the campus and the people I met, and think it's a good fit for me. The fact is, two USNWR places apart or not, many people consider Harvard Law to be in a higher tier than Chicago, and I'm trying to get a sense of what that actually means for someone coming out the other end, particularly in a place where "University of Chicago" isn't a household name.

UChicago Law isn't really a household name anywhere (which maybe accounts for the perception of an inferiority complex among UChicago kids) but luckily, whether or not the school is a household name doesn't count for much apart from impressing girls, and you already have a SO. What matters is the doors the school can open for you. HLS definitely has an edge there, but not a huge one as far as biglaw. You just have to decide whether it is worth doing the long distance thing for that edge.

[Jay Obee]

Madrigal is pretty cavalier about the idea of putting his relationship at risk for the extra 2 places in the rankings, so I'd guess that he isn't really that serious about his SO. I really don't think anyone who saw that their SO was the one they intend to marry, etc., would even consider being apart for three years when an option like Chicago was on the table. If that's the case, then OP should definitely go. Put that final nail in the relationship coffin. It is best for both of them. Once his noncommittal butt is out of the picture, some serious dude can move in. I know I would have no problem doing that. If I was in Chicago, as soon as I found out about the long distance relationship, I'd be all, "Wow, I can't believe anyone would leave someone like you behind. I wouldn't have left you for a second." I'd make her feel wanted, for once. Easy pickins.

I think I was pretty clear that I'm considering going to Harvard because I visited and was impressed both with the campus and the people I met, and think it's a good fit for me. The fact is, two USNWR places apart or not, many people consider Harvard Law to be in a higher tier than Chicago, and I'm trying to get a sense of what that actually means for someone coming out the other end, particularly in a place where "University of Chicago" isn't a household name.

I missed the part in this post where you were not cavalier about risking your relationship. You give that risk very little value.

Where are you gonna work where they are so backwards that only the Harvard name will get you a job? Retail at walmart in waco texas? Wanna run for mayor of a small town in Wyoming? Not that it matters-you aren't going to have to drag that H degree anywhere due to your current SO. If you go to HN that relationship is as good as done.

[slsorhls]

My SO will be probably be finishing her program at the same time as me (3 more years), so realistically I won't know where I'm headed long-term in time for EIP consideration

i hate to be the bearer of bad news but this is rather problematic.

chances are, you will have to choose your destination city about 1.5 years from today (summer 2013). you will line up something through oci/eip which will lead to a summer internship, which will lead to an offer. you can do 3L OCI, but its rather sparse and there is no guarantee you can switch, so you will probably end up going to wherever you ended up for 2L OCI. and if you have the 2L offer, it is not worth forgoing for the hope of job searching after 3L graduation.

so either you will have to undertake a risky post 3L job search with little chance of biglaw, or your s/o will have to end up in your chosen city even if she can't find an academic job there. i would address this conflict before you decide on either school.

one possibility is a clerkship, which would have you doing your full time job search over 3 yrs from now (during the clerkship post-graduation). but that would require top grades and is by no means guaranteed at either school.

This is off the mark. He should go for a biglaw firm with multiple offices. People often are able to work out a switch, so that you end up working in a different office than where you summered. Not that big of a deal. Very understandable given issues with SOs. Of course, I'm talking about the big markets. Working a switch from NYC to a tiny office in a smaller city would be, I'm sure, more difficult.

[concurrent fork]

Madrigal is pretty cavalier about the idea of putting his relationship at risk for the extra 2 places in the rankings, so I'd guess that he isn't really that serious about his SO. I really don't think anyone who saw that their SO was the one they intend to marry, etc., would even consider being apart for three years when an option like Chicago was on the table. If that's the case, then OP should definitely go. Put that final nail in the relationship coffin. It is best for both of them. Once his noncommittal butt is out of the picture, some serious dude can move in. I know I would have no problem doing that. If I was in Chicago, as soon as I found out about the long distance relationship, I'd be all, "Wow, I can't believe anyone would leave someone like you behind. I wouldn't have left you for a second." I'd make her feel wanted, for once. Easy pickins.

I think I was pretty clear that I'm considering going to Harvard because I visited and was impressed both with the campus and the people I met, and think it's a good fit for me. The fact is, two USNWR places apart or not, many people consider Harvard Law to be in a higher tier than Chicago, and I'm trying to get a sense of what that actually means for someone coming out the other end, particularly in a place where "University of Chicago" isn't a household name.

I missed the part in this post where you were not cavalier about risking your relationship. You give that risk very little value.

Where are you gonna work where they are so backwards that only the Harvard name will get you a job? Retail at walmart in waco texas? Wanna run for mayor of a small town in Wyoming? Not that it matters-you aren't going to have to drag that H degree anywhere due to your current SO. If you go to HN that relationship is as good as done.

wtf did OP run over your dog or something? take it easy.

[Flash]

People got up to $54k off the WL last year (that I know of - could be more). Absolutely negotiate and don't take no for an answer.

People actually got up to 150k off the WL last year.

[Stinson]

English PhD makes me want to throw up my hands and say take HLS and its mighty LIPP. It is far superior in terms of flexibility, and who knows where an English PhD might end up? If you wind up in a small town with a small law firm, you'll wish you had LIPP to cover low-salary private work.

The timing cuts the other way though. It's a real problem. You're going to have to make a bet at OCI/EIP about where she might end up. Lateraling probably isn't a serious possibility for about two and a half to three years. I don't know if transferring from one firm office to another would be faster, but I doubt it, especially big to small office. I think there's a very good chance you will be separated for a couple of years by this at least; from that perspective Chicago is better because you could be with her for the next three years and then maybe not for three more. With HLS you run the risk of a relationship-destroying 3+3 years out. It pains me to vote Chicago but I think it may be the better bet here.

[Jay Obee]

wtf did OP run over your dog or something? take it easy.

I'm being a bit blunt, but the choice for OP here is pretty easy. He likes Harvard and wants to go there, and is seeking advice from strangers on the internet. Nobody who really thinks they are with "the one" would leave her for three years, let alone when you have a school like UChicago in your city, which is basically the next best thing to Harvard. I'm happy for OP. He has his priorities straight. He should choose Harvard. I'm sure he'll find a new woman there, just like his current SO will find someone new probably within 6 months of when he leaves.

[englawyer]

My SO will be probably be finishing her program at the same time as me (3 more years), so realistically I won't know where I'm headed long-term in time for EIP consideration

i hate to be the bearer of bad news but this is rather problematic.

chances are, you will have to choose your destination city about 1.5 years from today (summer 2013). you will line up something through oci/eip which will lead to a summer internship, which will lead to an offer. you can do 3L OCI, but its rather sparse and there is no guarantee you can switch, so you will probably end up going to wherever you ended up for 2L OCI. and if you have the 2L offer, it is not worth forgoing for the hope of job searching after 3L graduation.

so either you will have to undertake a risky post 3L job search with little chance of biglaw, or your s/o will have to end up in your chosen city even if she can't find an academic job there. i would address this conflict before you decide on either school.

one possibility is a clerkship, which would have you doing your full time job search over 3 yrs from now (during the clerkship post-graduation). but that would require top grades and is by no means guaranteed at either school.

This is off the mark. He should go for a biglaw firm with multiple offices. People often are able to work out a switch, so that you end up working in a different office than where you summered. Not that big of a deal. Very understandable given issues with SOs. Of course, I'm talking about the big markets. Working a switch from NYC to a tiny office in a smaller city would be, I'm sure, more difficult.

what impressive insight from a 0L

[slsorhls]

My SO will be probably be finishing her program at the same time as me (3 more years), so realistically I won't know where I'm headed long-term in time for EIP consideration

i hate to be the bearer of bad news but this is rather problematic.

chances are, you will have to choose your destination city about 1.5 years from today (summer 2013). you will line up something through oci/eip which will lead to a summer internship, which will lead to an offer. you can do 3L OCI, but its rather sparse and there is no guarantee you can switch, so you will probably end up going to wherever you ended up for 2L OCI. and if you have the 2L offer, it is not worth forgoing for the hope of job searching after 3L graduation.

so either you will have to undertake a risky post 3L job search with little chance of biglaw, or your s/o will have to end up in your chosen city even if she can't find an academic job there. i would address this conflict before you decide on either school.

one possibility is a clerkship, which would have you doing your full time job search over 3 yrs from now (during the clerkship post-graduation). but that would require top grades and is by no means guaranteed at either school.

This is off the mark. He should go for a biglaw firm with multiple offices. People often are able to work out a switch, so that you end up working in a different office than where you summered. Not that big of a deal. Very understandable given issues with SOs. Of course, I'm talking about the big markets. Working a switch from NYC to a tiny office in a smaller city would be, I'm sure, more difficult.

what impressive insight from a 0L

Actually, I was interested in this issue before, so I went ahead and talked to a lot of 3Ls and grads about it.

[dresden doll]

you aren't going to have to drag that H degree anywhere due to your current SO. If you go to HN that relationship is as good as done.

You don't know that. Let's not indulge in utterly unsubstantiated speculations.

[Jay Obee]

you aren't going to have to drag that H degree anywhere due to your current SO. If you go to HN that relationship is as good as done.

You don't know that. Let's not indulge in utterly unsubstantiated speculations.

Just going on pure probability - well that and plus the OP hasn't really defended or weighed the relationship at all, which I find strange. OP hasn't opined at all how he values that relationship. It could be that he is looking for a way out, and this is a great opportunity. I'm not really speculating anymore than anyone else in this thread.
As to long distance relationships, you are in law school, so you know what the odds are. He has a better chance of landing an appellate clerkship than he does of that relationship surviving long distance over 1L. Acting like it is any different is like a 0L assuming they will land top quarter of first year.