NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where to go?

NU: COA 80K/yr
14
52%
Minn: COA 24K/yr
13
48%
 
Total votes: 27

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rayiner
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:47 am

efleury wrote:
H.E. Pennypacker wrote:what was your major and what are your other options?


My major was political science so not much in the way of a golden goose there. I have been working at a large hospital since graduation and have been climbing the ranks pretty fast (started as a temp am now a Sr. Secretary/Supervisor). They want to keep me there so if I stayed instead of going I would probably be looking at an administrative supervisor type position @ maybe 40K a year. I honestly believe that if I wanted to stay here I could get to a Practice Manager or Department Director position in the next 10 years. I have valued my time here and have really grown as a worker. However, with that being said this is not what I want to be doing.


Also to everyone asking how I got 130K in debt here's the summary:

Terrible student in HS led to no financial aid.
Parents didn't go to college or understand the loans and neither did I, to be honest so I made some poor decisions.

I didn't go into UG knowing what I wanted to do plus I was in a really bad biking accident that essentially put me out of school for an entire year that I had paid for so I ended up spending essentially 6 years in UG.

Throw in a few semesters of internships in DC and the like and then the interest since and there you have it.


http://www.studentloanborrowerassistanc ... ankruptcy/

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thelawyler
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby thelawyler » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:51 am

efleury wrote:
H.E. Pennypacker wrote:what was your major and what are your other options?


My major was political science so not much in the way of a golden goose there. I have been working at a large hospital since graduation and have been climbing the ranks pretty fast (started as a temp am now a Sr. Secretary/Supervisor). They want to keep me there so if I stayed instead of going I would probably be looking at an administrative supervisor type position @ maybe 40K a year. I honestly believe that if I wanted to stay here I could get to a Practice Manager or Department Director position in the next 10 years. I have valued my time here and have really grown as a worker. However, with that being said this is not what I want to be doing.


Also to everyone asking how I got 130K in debt here's the summary:

Terrible student in HS led to no financial aid.
Parents didn't go to college or understand the loans and neither did I, to be honest so I made some poor decisions.

I didn't go into UG knowing what I wanted to do plus I was in a really bad biking accident that essentially put me out of school for an entire year that I had paid for so I ended up spending essentially 6 years in UG.

Throw in a few semesters of internships in DC and the like and then the interest since and there you have it.


With your level of debt, have you considered doing the PT program at Georgetown? Work a few years and get to a position in administration that is marketable, apply to someplace in DC, get it, and then do part-time at GULC while avoiding Cost of Living debt? Although that'd still put you in the hole considerably unless you get a scholarship of some kind. But if the PT GULC costs 130k for the 4 years it takes to complete, you'd graduate with 260k~ in debt. That sounds much more manageable (even though it's extremely rough...) than 400k.

I dont know. Tough calls man.

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Bronck
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Bronck » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:53 am

Desert Fox wrote:If you attend NW at sticker your loan payments are 4.8K dollars a month on a ten year plan. That is streching big law salary pretty hard.

If you go to a 30 year repayment plan that is still 2.8K / month and you'll end up paying a million dollars.

Sorry bro, you cannot afford law school. I hope your UG was worth 130K.


I agree completely with this.

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H.E. Pennypacker
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby H.E. Pennypacker » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:56 am

efleury wrote:
H.E. Pennypacker wrote:what was your major and what are your other options?


My major was political science so not much in the way of a golden goose there. I have been working at a large hospital since graduation and have been climbing the ranks pretty fast (started as a temp am now a Sr. Secretary/Supervisor). They want to keep me there so if I stayed instead of going I would probably be looking at an administrative supervisor type position @ maybe 40K a year. I honestly believe that if I wanted to stay here I could get to a Practice Manager or Department Director position in the next 10 years. I have valued my time here and have really grown as a worker. However, with that being said this is not what I want to be doing.


Also to everyone asking how I got 130K in debt here's the summary:

Terrible student in HS led to no financial aid.
Parents didn't go to college or understand the loans and neither did I, to be honest so I made some poor decisions.

I didn't go into UG knowing what I wanted to do plus I was in a really bad biking accident that essentially put me out of school for an entire year that I had paid for so I ended up spending essentially 6 years in UG.

Throw in a few semesters of internships in DC and the like and then the interest since and there you have it.


get them to pay for an MHA? just throwin out ideas.

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rayiner
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:57 am

Dude honestly your best bet is to move to Canada: --LinkRemoved--.

The basic problem is that there is no upside for you here. You can go to NU, kill yourself in law school to get a big firm job, kill yourself at a big firm to make sure you make it 6-7 years there, and you'll still be in debt. All that work just to pay off your creditors. Instead, move to Canada, establish Canadian citizenship, go through Canadian bankruptcy, and get your life back.
Last edited by rayiner on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

lauren_jame
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby lauren_jame » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:58 am

The total cost for both would ASTRONOMICAL. Obviously, NU would leave you with more debt than UMinnesota. UM is over $30k/yr in-state and nearly $44k/yr out-of-state. NU is nearly $50k/yr tuition. Add the cost-of-living and you're easily looking at somewhere near $200k of debt when you graduate. Paying that back will take you a lifetime. See http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

I'd seriously consider the decision if I were you.

09042014
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:00 am

I really wish I knew what happened to ex-big law people in re: their salary long term. If they are making 150K+ salary for life, it would change the math cosiderably.

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rayiner
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:01 am

lauren_jame wrote:The total cost for both would ASTRONOMICAL. Obviously, NU would leave you with more debt than UMinnesota. UM is over $30k/yr in-state and nearly $44k/yr out-of-state. NU is nearly $50k/yr tuition. Add the cost-of-living and you're easily looking at somewhere near $200k of debt when you graduate. Paying that back will take you a lifetime. See http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

I'd seriously consider the decision if I were you.


Total COA at NU for 3 years with interest will be around $250k. OP will also rack up another $20k or so in interest on his UG loans. He'll be at an even $400k at graduation.

09042014
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:08 am

Learning programming bro.

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thelawyler
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby thelawyler » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:09 am

Desert Fox wrote:I really wish I knew what happened to ex-big law people in re: their salary long term. If they are making 150K+ salary for life, it would change the math cosiderably.


Same. There needs to be more TLS data on this... given that 5 years into Big Law, with salary increases and bonus increases, you can be expecting to make 260k... I'd say 100+ is probably reasonable after lateraling down.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby shredderrrrrr » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:11 am

efleury wrote:
rayiner wrote:You won't get a job out of Minnesota that will let you comfortably pay $200k in debt, and there are no jobs that let you comfortably pay $380k in debt.

What is the nature of your undergraduate debt? Is it eligible for IBR? What are your non-law options?

On a strictly expected-value basis NU is the right answer, but there is a 25% chance of ending up without a $160k/year job *and* with $380k in debt.


Most of my UG debt is private loans so it is not eligible for IBR.

So as far as I can tell a 10 yr repayment on 380K @6.8% is going to be just shy of 4.8K/mo like Desert Fox said.

Scenario 1: Biglaw
If I can land a 160K yr job then I pay 28% in taxes ($44.8K) which will be 115K/yr or 9.6K/mo. I pay half of it in loan payments and end with 4.8k a month. That is essentially the same as living on 57.6K a year (after taxes) without any debt. I'm certainly not going to be loaded but it sounds easily doable especially when I consider that right now after loans/taxes I am living on about 11K/yr.

Also, if that's not manageable I can extend the payment terms and be living on up to 85K/yr after taxes although I would much rather pay it off ASAP.

That also doesn't account for raises/bonuses.

Scenario 2:
No Biglaw @ NU
380K in debt
Let's assume I can get a PI job for 50K/yr
I can do use the LRAP and after taxes/UG loans I would make about 31K/yr. Another 3K would go towards my law school loans bringing me down to 28K. Then forgiven after 10 yrs. Again, 28K/yr after taxes is pretty paltry but it is by no means unmanageable.


Am I missing something?


Do you really want to work your ass off for a best case scenario of just being able to scrape by? Whether or not you can do it seems irrelevant to me. The question is if it is worth it. Taking on debt/surviving law school/working crazy biglaw hours only seem logical if there is some sort of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (read: money/comfortable lifestyle). All that work just to be able to (hopefully) pay rent and eat some food each month? I'd pass.

I feel bad for the situation you're in. I just think that LS doesn't make sense for you with so much UG debt.

And I'd also more seriously consider the "if I don't get biglaw" scenarios...

rad lulz
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:12 am

Just do a MAcc program bro

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Bronck
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Bronck » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:13 am

thelawyler wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I really wish I knew what happened to ex-big law people in re: their salary long term. If they are making 150K+ salary for life, it would change the math cosiderably.


Same. There needs to be more TLS data on this... given that 5 years into Big Law, with salary increases and bonus increases, you can be expecting to make 260k... I'd say 100+ is probably reasonable after lateraling down.


Robert Half Legal survey data for in house salaries:

NY in house attorneys w/ 4-9 yrs experience 25-50-75: 136k-197k-259k
NY in house attorneys w/ 10-12 yrs experience 25-50-75: 184k-251k-318k

http://www.roberthalflegal.com/SalaryCe ... =startover

09042014
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:24 am

Bronck wrote:
thelawyler wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I really wish I knew what happened to ex-big law people in re: their salary long term. If they are making 150K+ salary for life, it would change the math cosiderably.


Same. There needs to be more TLS data on this... given that 5 years into Big Law, with salary increases and bonus increases, you can be expecting to make 260k... I'd say 100+ is probably reasonable after lateraling down.


Robert Half Legal survey data for in house salaries:

NY in house attorneys w/ 4-9 yrs experience 25-50-75: 136k-197k-259k
NY in house attorneys w/ 10-12 yrs experience 25-50-75: 184k-251k-318k

http://www.roberthalflegal.com/SalaryCe ... =startover


That tells you how much you make when you lateral in house, but how many can do that. What about us litigation bros.

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Bronck
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Bronck » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:30 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Bronck wrote:
thelawyler wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I really wish I knew what happened to ex-big law people in re: their salary long term. If they are making 150K+ salary for life, it would change the math cosiderably.


Same. There needs to be more TLS data on this... given that 5 years into Big Law, with salary increases and bonus increases, you can be expecting to make 260k... I'd say 100+ is probably reasonable after lateraling down.


Robert Half Legal survey data for in house salaries:

NY in house attorneys w/ 4-9 yrs experience 25-50-75: 136k-197k-259k
NY in house attorneys w/ 10-12 yrs experience 25-50-75: 184k-251k-318k

http://www.roberthalflegal.com/SalaryCe ... =startover


That tells you how much you make when you lateral in house, but how many can do that. What about us litigation bros.


yeaaaahh I know, only covers a subset of corp people. No idea what the exit options for lit bros are outside of lateraling to smaller firms or going into fed gov.

rad lulz
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:44 am

About a third of the in-house opportunities are lit related IIRC.

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rayiner
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:13 am

rad lulz wrote:About a third of the in-house opportunities are lit related IIRC.


Just do IP lit bro.

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boredatwork
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby boredatwork » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:16 am

Your UG loans are all private? so they have an adjustable rate? You could be looking at a lot more than 400k if that interest rate goes up, which I would say is likely.

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Tadatsune
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Tadatsune » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:21 am

Desert Fox wrote:Sorry bro, you cannot afford law school.


Sweet Jesus, this.

Paul Campos
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:21 am

This is somewhat lateral to the OP, but a huge wild card in calculating the NPV of a T-14 at sticker right now is that the post-big law associate landscape is changing so fast. Ten years ago if you had spent five years at a big firm or even got Lathamed the exit options tended to be pretty good, and firms put some real effort into placing their ex-associates. Today you have a lot of ex-big law people who are simply getting nothing, let alone a comfy six figure in house gig. We don't have any good stats on this unfortunately, but it's a totally crucial issue in regard to the extent that sticker actually makes sense anywhere any more.

As for the OP I think he'd be nuts to go to Minnesota. His likely outcome if he does that is a job that pays the same as the job he would have three years from now, except the hours/lifestyle would be far worse, he would have racked up $120K in opportunity costs, and another $60K in educational debt. Also, how is he going to service his private loans while he's in law school?

Northwestern is a more complicated calculation but damn . . . what is wrong with this country that we let somebody get $130K in debt in order to get a Poli Sci undergrad degree?

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Tadatsune
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Tadatsune » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:34 am

Paul Campos wrote:but damn . . . what is wrong with this country that we let somebody get $130K in debt in order to get a Poli Sci undergrad degree?


To be fair, looks like the OP spent 6 years in undergrad. That said, UG debt is a serious problem right now.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue May 01, 2012 10:48 am

What everyone else said. I turned down NU at sticker out of cost concerns and I have about 1/5 the debt you do. If you go NU and get biglaw, and everything goes according to plan, it's possible to pay it off - but why? You're working yourself to the bone for up to a decade for a standard of living that shit law can provide. I agree with everyone else, it's just not worth it.




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