NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where to go?

NU: COA 80K/yr
14
52%
Minn: COA 24K/yr
13
48%
 
Total votes: 27

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efleury
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NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby efleury » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:59 am

I prefer NU but obviously the cost is a big issue. Over the course of 3 years it will be $168K cheaper to attend Minnesota than NU. Is staying in the T14 worth that? I am not entirely sure what I want to do after but I know with NU you have a better shot at biglaw plus they have a great LRAP. Also, I currently owe 130K in undergrad debt so I am trying not to rush into more debt.

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emkay625
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby emkay625 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:04 am

I voted for NU but I think this is tough. 240K in debt on top of the 140K you already have is a lot. How averse to the debt are you?

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efleury
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby efleury » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:10 am

emkay625 wrote:I voted for NU but I think this is tough. 240K in debt on top of the 140K you already have is a lot. How averse to the debt are you?


I consider myself to be pretty good with money and don't mind living frugally so assuming I can land a biglaw job and want to do that for a while I believe I could pay my debt off pretty fast. With that being said, I've been out of school and working/living on my own for the last 3 years so I know how much of an impact student loan debt can have and I am not eager to be put in a situation where I have crushing debt and a lower income.

rad lulz
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:13 am

You have no business being $380k in debt after law school. Even with $160k, you're gonna have a hell of a time paying it back. Do you even realize what the interest looks like on that? Shit, you have no business being $200k in debt (or whatever) for Minn either. Going to law school at those prices would be rank idiocy.

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Nova
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Nova » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:19 am

Ahhh.... The eternal question of T30 with $$$ vs T14 Sticker. If it wasnt for the UG debt, I would say go for NU.

Almost 400k debt would scare the hell out of me. That isnt including compound interest, is it? Sounds like debtors prison. There's also a decent chance you miss the Big law boat, and then you would be seriously fucked.

The nearly full ride at UMN may be the answer. But even still, 200k debt for UMN is not good either.

Edit: uhh lulz beat me to it.

09042014
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:24 am

If you attend NW at sticker your loan payments are 4.8K dollars a month on a ten year plan. That is streching big law salary pretty hard.

If you go to a 30 year repayment plan that is still 2.8K / month and you'll end up paying a million dollars.

Sorry bro, you cannot afford law school. I hope your UG was worth 130K.

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H.E. Pennypacker
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby H.E. Pennypacker » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:24 am

fuck dude rethink your situation ... big law doesn't last more than 3 years for many and that's 30k/year principle paid down if you live like a pauper in NYC

do you have any other options?

071816
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby 071816 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:29 am

Pay down most of that debt before considering law school unless you can retake and get into a good school for really cheap.

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H.E. Pennypacker
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby H.E. Pennypacker » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:34 am

chimp wrote:Pay down most of that debt before considering law school unless you can retake and get into a good school for really cheap.


+1

fucking up 1L doesn't feel quite as bad with legit corporate work experience and savings that cover living expenses

get some work experience

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romothesavior
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:37 am

NU at sticker and UMN with 120k in scholarship money are both fine in and of themselves. But with 130k of undergrad debt? Holy cow... how does that even happen?

I don't think law school is a good idea for you at all. This is financially imprudent, even with biglaw. If you are 130k in debt now and go to UMN, you are tacking on at least another 50-60k in debt for COL and tuition increases, and then a few dozen thousand more for interest. You'll most likely be 200k+ in debt by the time you graduate from UMN. And Northwestern could put you close to 350-400k in debt once you factor in tuition, COL, and interest.

Financial suicide.

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Nova
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Nova » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:38 am

chimp wrote:Pay down most of that debt before considering law school unless you can retake and get into a good school for really cheap.


IMO, Minn with 40k would be a good school for really cheap. Just not good enough for the OPs situation.

OP, you claim to be frugal but you are allowing yourself to live off 20k a year in Mpls. Thats not really frugal for a single person with no kids. Not that 15k/yr of living expenses and 185Kish debt would change much.

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efleury
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby efleury » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:49 am

Nova wrote:
chimp wrote:Pay down most of that debt before considering law school unless you can retake and get into a good school for really cheap.


IMO, Minn with 40k would be a good school for really cheap. Just not good enough for the OPs situation.

OP, you claim to be frugal but you are allowing yourself to live off 20k a year in Mpls. Thats not really frugal for a single person with no kids. Not that 15k/yr of living expenses and 185Kish debt would change much.


For COA I only used their numbers, I imagine I can live cheaper than they predict but my understanding is that their numbers only include 9 months of room and board.

rad lulz
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:51 am

efleury wrote:
Nova wrote:
chimp wrote:Pay down most of that debt before considering law school unless you can retake and get into a good school for really cheap.


IMO, Minn with 40k would be a good school for really cheap. Just not good enough for the OPs situation.

OP, you claim to be frugal but you are allowing yourself to live off 20k a year in Mpls. Thats not really frugal for a single person with no kids. Not that 15k/yr of living expenses and 185Kish debt would change much.


For COA I only used their numbers, I imagine I can live cheaper than they predict but my understanding is that their numbers only include 9 months of room and board.

9 months bro. Sucks that you got into some good schools, but you really shouldn't go. That debt is horrific. You'd basically be a moron to go to either.




Image

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romothesavior
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:52 am

You also have to consider interest. Many 0Ls, myself included, don't sufficiently account for it. I looked at my loan totals the other day, and was surprised to learn I am in more debt than I had originally thought because of interest. And I have far less debt than you do. Going to law school and letting that stuff accumulate interest, while also adding tens or even hundreds of thousands to your principal, is just insane.

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rayiner
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:53 am

You won't get a job out of Minnesota that will let you comfortably pay $200k in debt, and there are no jobs that let you comfortably pay $380k in debt.

What is the nature of your undergraduate debt? Is it eligible for IBR? What are your non-law options?

On a strictly expected-value basis NU is the right answer, but there is a 25% chance of ending up without a $160k/year job *and* with $380k in debt.

Actually, if you're a poli-sci major from a CSU going to NU might actually be your best option. You're going to have to pray you get big law, but $380k debt with a $160k salary is probably more manageable than $130k debt with a $50k salary.

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Nova
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby Nova » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:58 am

efleury wrote:
Nova wrote:
chimp wrote:Pay down most of that debt before considering law school unless you can retake and get into a good school for really cheap.


IMO, Minn with 40k would be a good school for really cheap. Just not good enough for the OPs situation.

OP, you claim to be frugal but you are allowing yourself to live off 20k a year in Mpls. Thats not really frugal for a single person with no kids. Not that 15k/yr of living expenses and 185Kish debt would change much.


For COA I only used their numbers, I imagine I can live cheaper than they predict but my understanding is that their numbers only include 9 months of room and board.


Fair enough. Ill be at UMN in the fall, which is why I mentioned it.

Single Nonresidents:
Tuition and Fees: $43,385
UMN Health Insurance* $1,900
Laptop Purchase $1,220
Books & Supplies $1,666
Indirect Costs** $12,578
TOTAL $60,749

**Indirect Costs are calculated for a student living off-campus as follows:

•Room/board $9,828 (based upon local housing prices)
•Transportation $750
•Personal/miscellaneous $2,000


Of course these are just estimates. The difference between having a 1br for 1k a month and splitting a place for 500 a month would be nearly 5k a year by its self. Ya no?

lobolawyer
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby lobolawyer » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:02 am

rad lulz wrote:You have no business being $380k in debt after law school.

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bk1
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby bk1 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:08 am

Desert Fox wrote:If you attend NW at sticker your loan payments are 4.8K dollars a month on a ten year plan. That is streching big law salary pretty hard.

If you go to a 30 year repayment plan that is still 2.8K / month and you'll end up paying a million dollars.

Sorry bro, you cannot afford law school. I hope your UG was worth 130K.


This.

Unless a T14 is offering you close to a full ride, there is no way that any law school at any other price makes sense for someone 130k in debt.

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H.E. Pennypacker
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby H.E. Pennypacker » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:16 am

what was your major and what are your other options?

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efleury
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby efleury » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:22 am

rayiner wrote:You won't get a job out of Minnesota that will let you comfortably pay $200k in debt, and there are no jobs that let you comfortably pay $380k in debt.

What is the nature of your undergraduate debt? Is it eligible for IBR? What are your non-law options?

On a strictly expected-value basis NU is the right answer, but there is a 25% chance of ending up without a $160k/year job *and* with $380k in debt.


Most of my UG debt is private loans so it is not eligible for IBR.

So as far as I can tell a 10 yr repayment on 380K @6.8% is going to be just shy of 4.8K/mo like Desert Fox said.

Scenario 1: Biglaw
If I can land a 160K yr job then I pay 28% in taxes ($44.8K) which will be 115K/yr or 9.6K/mo. I pay half of it in loan payments and end with 4.8k a month. That is essentially the same as living on 57.6K a year (after taxes) without any debt. I'm certainly not going to be loaded but it sounds easily doable especially when I consider that right now after loans/taxes I am living on about 11K/yr.

Also, if that's not manageable I can extend the payment terms and be living on up to 85K/yr after taxes although I would much rather pay it off ASAP.

That also doesn't account for raises/bonuses.

Scenario 2:
No Biglaw @ NU
380K in debt
Let's assume I can get a PI job for 50K/yr
I can do use the LRAP and after taxes/UG loans I would make about 31K/yr. Another 3K would go towards my law school loans bringing me down to 28K. Then forgiven after 10 yrs. Again, 28K/yr after taxes is pretty paltry but it is by no means unmanageable.


Am I missing something?

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thelawyler
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby thelawyler » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:25 am

Hmmm if you already have that much in Ugrad debt, it really sounds like... Big Partner or bust.

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rayiner
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:30 am

efleury wrote:
rayiner wrote:You won't get a job out of Minnesota that will let you comfortably pay $200k in debt, and there are no jobs that let you comfortably pay $380k in debt.

What is the nature of your undergraduate debt? Is it eligible for IBR? What are your non-law options?

On a strictly expected-value basis NU is the right answer, but there is a 25% chance of ending up without a $160k/year job *and* with $380k in debt.


Most of my UG debt is private loans so it is not eligible for IBR.

So as far as I can tell a 10 yr repayment on 380K @6.8% is going to be just shy of 4.8K/mo like Desert Fox said.

Scenario 1: Biglaw
If I can land a 160K yr job then I pay 28% in taxes ($44.8K) which will be 115K/yr or 9.6K/mo. I pay half of it in loan payments and end with 4.8k a month. That is essentially the same as living on 57.6K a year (after taxes) without any debt. I'm certainly not going to be loaded but it sounds easily doable especially when I consider that right now after loans/taxes I am living on about 11K/yr.

Also, if that's not manageable I can extend the payment terms and be living on up to 85K/yr after taxes although I would much rather pay it off ASAP.

That also doesn't account for raises/bonuses.

Scenario 2:
No Biglaw @ NU
380K in debt
Let's assume I can get a PI job for 50K/yr
I can do use the LRAP and after taxes/UG loans I would make about 31K/yr. Another 3K would go towards my law school loans bringing me down to 28K. Then forgiven after 10 yrs. Again, 28K/yr after taxes is pretty paltry but it is by no means unmanageable.


Am I missing something?


First, taxes are more like 40% combined. Your take home is just over $8,000/month. That leaves you with say $3,500 a month for rent, food, etc. If you go to NU and gun for big law, you'll bid NYC which is the easiest market. In NYC $3,500 a month for living expenses is going to make things pretty tight, but possibly doable. But you basically *need* to last 7 years in big law (i.e. until you get passed over for partner). You'll be working insane hours in order to live on a shoe-string budget.

Second, PI is not what you do when you miss big law. You do small firms not eligible for IBR or LRAP, or unemployment. PI is insanely competitive and goes to people with good grades who gun for PI from the beginning.

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thelawyler
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby thelawyler » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:36 am

Basically what rayiner said. So this is a judgement call by you... are you willing to live with your current std of living or are you willing to take the risk, work your ass off for 10 years without seeing a pay off, and then finally obtain that good life style well into your 30s. And of course, this has a 40% chance of failure if you miss Big Law, and you may also burn out.

Your call.

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efleury
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby efleury » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:38 am

H.E. Pennypacker wrote:what was your major and what are your other options?


My major was political science so not much in the way of a golden goose there. I have been working at a large hospital since graduation and have been climbing the ranks pretty fast (started as a temp am now a Sr. Secretary/Supervisor). They want to keep me there so if I stayed instead of going I would probably be looking at an administrative supervisor type position @ maybe 40K a year. I honestly believe that if I wanted to stay here I could get to a Practice Manager or Department Director position in the next 10 years. I have valued my time here and have really grown as a worker. However, with that being said this is not what I want to be doing.


Also to everyone asking how I got 130K in debt here's the summary:

Terrible student in HS led to no financial aid.
Parents didn't go to college or understand the loans and neither did I, to be honest so I made some poor decisions.

I didn't go into UG knowing what I wanted to do plus I was in a really bad biking accident that essentially put me out of school for an entire year that I had paid for so I ended up spending essentially 6 years in UG.

Throw in a few semesters of internships in DC and the like and then the interest since and there you have it.

09042014
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Re: NU (Sticker) vs Minnesota ($40K/yr)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:43 am

Well you'll probably have more like 400K. NU at sticker will be more like 260 with interest. And your loans are going to get more interest too. Rates on that NW will be over 7% (some at 7.9% some at 6.8%).

Take home for Chicago big law is under 110K. I think 108Kish. NYC big law is worse. Minnesota big law (if that's where you are from) only pays like 110 before tax. Probably not enogh to pay the loans.

But here the thing. You could probably pay that. But you can't pay that, reliably, for ten years. You only get big law for like 2 years min., 3 years average, 5 years good case, and 7ish best case. You'd basically have to make partner, or lateral into a job that pays big law level salary. Which probably isn't very unrealistic, but it's still a lot of risk.

You basically need to have a great career for ten years or you are FUCKED. Basically you winning this whole situation, is that after 10 years you break even.

Even if you pay 4.6K a year for 5 years, and then you get laid off. You'll still have 230K in debt. That should scare you.




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