Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

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chrisradd
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Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby chrisradd » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:30 am

A little background one me: I graduated with a Business Marketing degree from a Cal State school & currently work in Internet Marketing. My plans are to attend GUCL part-time, which I will probably not pull a loan out, and continue to work full-time. Is there benefit for me to do this, even though I might not end up actually practicing.

So I have a specific question in mind: Is it worth spending the money to attend a non-ABA school if you plan to be a non-practicing lawyer? I often hear this mentality of in business you need to think like a lawyer talk.

I have also considered going to Loyola's part-time program, but it would cost 130k over 4yrs opposed to 50k at GUCL. I have also considered an MBA, but feel with my GMAT scores/ungd GPA I would not be able to get into USC or UCLA & feel the money wouldn't be effective at Pepperdine.

I primarily want to go to law school for the issue spoting, problem solving, and logical/analytical skills. If there is any other graduate degree you might suggest I pursue, please comment.

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bigeast03
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby bigeast03 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:37 am

chrisradd wrote:A little background one me: I graduated with a Business Marketing degree from a Cal State school & currently work in Internet Marketing. My plans are to attend GUCL part-time, which I will probably not pull a loan out, and continue to work full-time. Is there benefit for me to do this, even though I might not end up actually practicing.

So I have a specific question in mind: Is it worth spending the money to attend a non-ABA school if you plan to be a non-practicing lawyer? I often hear this mentality of in business you need to think like a lawyer talk.

I have also considered going to Loyola's part-time program, but it would cost 130k over 4yrs opposed to 50k at GUCL. I have also considered an MBA, but feel with my GMAT scores/ungd GPA I would not be able to get into USC or UCLA & feel the money wouldn't be effective at Pepperdine.

I primarily want to go to law school for the issue spoting, problem solving, and logical/analytical skills. If there is any other graduate degree you might suggest I pursue, please comment.


What do you want to do with your life, career wise? I think that's the most important question for you to ask yourself. It doesn't seem like you have a set-goal with that regard. It's almost a categorically bad decision to go to law school not planning on being a lawyer, even without loans (you still have opportunity cost). It seems like the only reason you are considering law school is because it's easier for you to get into than business school. Maybe taking some time off and getting work experience would be good, and would let you figure out what you really want to do.

kingofspain
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby kingofspain » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:09 pm

chrisradd wrote:I primarily want to go to law school for the issue spoting, problem solving, and logical/analytical skills.
At business school, you would practice both analytical and constructive/problem-solving modes of thought while learning content actually relevant to your goals. At law school, analytical thinking would be drilled into your head at the expense of creative/constructive thought while you learn a huge body of useless content.

It's an oversimplification, sure, but being unable to get into the business school of your choice does not make law school a reasonable plan.

chrisradd
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby chrisradd » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:33 pm

I am considering an MBA as well. Co-workers tell me that I should at try being promoted at least once in to some sort of management position. I'm currently scoring around the 520 range for the GMAT with about 25-30 hrs of studying (taking a Kaplan Class). I will obviously study a lot more before taking the actual gmat, but with a previous 3.0 undg GPA, I feel I'm way out of the league when it comes to getting into USC/UCLA MBA.

Everyone at work at my job comes from USC, they call it the "usc mafia" lol and they probably wouldn't hire anyone from loyola/pepperdine/csun.

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bigeast03
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby bigeast03 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:42 pm

chrisradd wrote:I am considering an MBA as well. Co-workers tell me that I should at try being promoted at least once in to some sort of management position. I'm currently scoring around the 520 range for the GMAT with about 25-30 hrs of studying (taking a Kaplan Class). I will obviously study a lot more before taking the actual gmat, but with a previous 3.0 undg GPA, I feel I'm way out of the league when it comes to getting into USC/UCLA MBA.

Everyone at work at my job comes from USC, they call it the "usc mafia" lol and they probably wouldn't hire anyone from loyola/pepperdine/csun.


So, you already have a business job. Is there any reason why you don't just stay there and enjoy secure employment? What's motivating you to get either a JD or an MBA?

(Not being snarky, genuinely curious)

chrisradd
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby chrisradd » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:11 pm

Well yes, I got lucky because I interned at my current company. I worked at BofA for a while until a position opened up, contacted my old boss, and got the job. My issue is that I feel there is little room to move up if you don't posses a higher advanced degree. I'm stuck between making the decision of going to Bschool - even though it would have to be a much lower ranked school, such as Pepperdine, or I'm considering the law school route. Once again, I would be studying law, because it would just be useful in life, business, etc., as well as for the analytical/problem solving/issue spotting skill set. I suppose you can "skin a cat in different ways" and colleagues tell me to just get a business degree for a less prestigious school, but in reality the cost is way too high for a school like Pepperdine/Loyola MBA, and it doesn't guarantee a better position/job.

I want to currently stay employed full time, but I want to go to school at night for some sort of advanced degree. I guess my real question is, what do you suppose I get that degree in? If I were to pursue a J.D., is it necessary to go to a higher ranked school, since other lawyers/business people don't look at Glendale Law school as a real law school?

Or, should I get an MBA from Pepperdine/Loyola, spend about 60-80k, and realize that I will only maybeeee 20k more in the workforce, oppose to going to UCLA/USC MBA, which would open the doors to much better alumni and better job prospects, which I probably don't have the gpa/gmat to get into?

ps. - I want to say thanks for responding, its much appreciated

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bigeast03
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby bigeast03 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:26 pm

chrisradd wrote:Well yes, I got lucky because I interned at my current company. I worked at BofA for a while until a position opened up, contacted my old boss, and got the job. My issue is that I feel there is little room to move up if you don't posses a higher advanced degree. I'm stuck between making the decision of going to Bschool - even though it would have to be a much lower ranked school, such as Pepperdine, or I'm considering the law school route. Once again, I would be studying law, because it would just be useful in life, business, etc., as well as for the analytical/problem solving/issue spotting skill set. I suppose you can "skin a cat in different ways" and colleagues tell me to just get a business degree for a less prestigious school, but in reality the cost is way too high for a school like Pepperdine/Loyola MBA, and it doesn't guarantee a better position/job.

I want to currently stay employed full time, but I want to go to school at night for some sort of advanced degree. I guess my real question is, what do you suppose I get that degree in? If I were to pursue a J.D., is it necessary to go to a higher ranked school, since other lawyers/business people don't look at Glendale Law school as a real law school?

Or, should I get an MBA from Pepperdine/Loyola, spend about 60-80k, and realize that I will only maybeeee 20k more in the workforce, oppose to going to UCLA/USC MBA, which would open the doors to much better alumni and better job prospects, which I probably don't have the gpa/gmat to get into?

ps. - I want to say thanks for responding, its much appreciated


If you've got a secure job right now, and you just want to further employment opportunities with an advanced degree, I would wait and continue to study until you feel confident you can get into a B-School you are comfortable with. There doesn't seem to be any reason to rush back to school; you can spend as much time as you need to study and practice the GMAT. Getting managerial experience will also help in the admission process for an MBA as well. I don't think going to a school for the sake of going would be a very good investment, and I think your career goals would be better served by focusing on improving your GMAT. Law school seems like a waste of time/opportunity cost for you. Don't just go somewhere because you think it will be easier.
TL;DR: I would suggest to continue working, study for the GMAT, shoot for USC/UCLA B-School.

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AreJay711
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:38 pm

Law school is decidedly bad for business. I don't think law school really crushes the creativity out of you -- maybe 1L since the exams are issue spotters and making creative arguments will get you points but not as fast as hitting the low lying fruit but not beyond that particularly -- however, the subject matter would be a complete waste of time.

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dingbat
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby dingbat » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:58 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Law school is decidedly bad for business.

This is total BS. Many top businessmen (and women) went to law school.
It also can teach you to think in a way that may be beneficial in business.

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Br3v
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby Br3v » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:12 pm

What is wrong with everyone?
Flame.

chrisradd
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby chrisradd » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:38 am

dingbat wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Law school is decidedly bad for business.

This is total BS. Many top businessmen (and women) went to law school.
It also can teach you to think in a way that may be beneficial in business.


I too agree with this assumption. The issue I'm struggling with is, weather or not I will actually practice law?

In the context of my situation: If I practice law I feel I'm at a disadvantage, but If I don't practice law I will benefit from it indirectly.

The opposing point of view would state: the opportunity cost of working full-time and studying during the evening/weekend is that I could use that time to a) start a company (entrepreneurship) or b) attend an MBA program c) etc.

The benefit of law school would then have to come from intrinsic value/pursuing a career that requires substantial legal knowledge/start my own law firm/etc.

I appreciate you commenting on this thread, I would like to hear your point of view on how a law degree is beneficial in business?





If I practice law, then I'm at a disadvantage, but I don't plan to do so since I work in Internet Marketing. So I would purely be attending law school based off two



The context of my work can benefit from the practical learning and mindset I would posses (no one could screw you over lol).

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dingbat
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:08 am

The big issue is no one will take the degree seriously.
It won't improve your employment prospects whatsoever, so the only benefit will be intrinsic.
If you're in a career that gives you opportunity to work your way up, you might do so faster.
But while studying law may teach you to think a certain way, it's not going to suddenly make you a lot better at everything.

Thd question is, what do you do and how will an improved mindset help you in furthering your career? While I think there are benefits, whether it's worth it of not really depends on your situation. If you're middle management it may make you a more effective manager, but if you're a low-level sales person, I don't think thè benefit will be that noticeable.

I honk that if you're going to spend 3 years of your life on an education, you may as well spend the extra money to get a piece of paper others would appreciate as well. Consider it am investment, which you should treat as an investment (if I spend X on a degree and it will probably increase my salary by Y, is it worth it? What about degree B, that costs X2, but increases my salary by Y2?)

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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby fruitoftheloom » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:03 pm

Do more research before planning on part time law school while working full time. I originally planned to do that, and I applied this year. I was accepted with decent scholarships to several part time programs. After being accepted, I went and sat in a class at the University I thought I would attend. Those students scared the sh*t out of me. In the program, their estimate was that maybe 30-40% of the class worked full time. The majority of the class either worked part time, or didn't work at all. Most of the class seemed to use the part time program as a way to "ease in" to law school. The ones who did work full time were pretty universally at the middle/bottom half of their class. In this economy it's just too hard to get a job to risk being at the bottom / middle of your class for 1 yr non law salary.

Some other HUGE cons to part time programs:
-Most people get their jobs by working for a legal employer during the summer. I spoke to probably 10 people who graduated from the part time program and 5 current students - every single one said that unless your current employer will hire you as a lawyer or give you a leave of absence for the summer to get legal experience, you will be at a huge (probably insurmountable) disadvantage.
-If you work 7a - 3:30p, assuming you commute 30 mins to law school, that leaves you with 2 hrs of studying during the day. If you make it home by 10p (generous) that's leaving you with 3 15 hour days for 4 years. (I'm assuming you get one day of early release).
-Most of the clinics, law review, moot court, etc. require some time commitment during the day. You won't be able to do that because you'll be working.

Moral of the story - when I started my research, I thought I would be completely fine working full time and going to law school part time. I realized that I would probably end up moderately sucking at both. I'm not willing to risk that. I'll be reapplying to full time programs next year, and I'll just suck up the 3 years lost full time income.

chrisradd
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby chrisradd » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:52 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:Do more research before planning on part time law school while working full time. I originally planned to do that, and I applied this year. I was accepted with decent scholarships to several part time programs. After being accepted, I went and sat in a class at the University I thought I would attend. Those students scared the sh*t out of me. In the program, their estimate was that maybe 30-40% of the class worked full time. The majority of the class either worked part time, or didn't work at all. Most of the class seemed to use the part time program as a way to "ease in" to law school. The ones who did work full time were pretty universally at the middle/bottom half of their class. In this economy it's just too hard to get a job to risk being at the bottom / middle of your class for 1 yr non law salary.

Some other HUGE cons to part time programs:
-Most people get their jobs by working for a legal employer during the summer. I spoke to probably 10 people who graduated from the part time program and 5 current students - every single one said that unless your current employer will hire you as a lawyer or give you a leave of absence for the summer to get legal experience, you will be at a huge (probably insurmountable) disadvantage.
-If you work 7a - 3:30p, assuming you commute 30 mins to law school, that leaves you with 2 hrs of studying during the day. If you make it home by 10p (generous) that's leaving you with 3 15 hour days for 4 years. (I'm assuming you get one day of early release).
-Most of the clinics, law review, moot court, etc. require some time commitment during the day. You won't be able to do that because you'll be working.

Moral of the story - when I started my research, I thought I would be completely fine working full time and going to law school part time. I realized that I would probably end up moderately sucking at both. I'm not willing to risk that. I'll be reapplying to full time programs next year, and I'll just suck up the 3 years lost full time income.



I know this might be a silly question, but how much time do you believe would be adequate for studying the actual law/writing/reading/extracurricular/etc?

What if I actually have got a job working as a paralegal/legal aid, while attending part-time?

What are your thoughts? Thanks!

ps. how much time did you spend on studying for LSAT?

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donzoli
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby donzoli » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:53 pm

chrisradd wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:Do more research before planning on part time law school while working full time. I originally planned to do that, and I applied this year. I was accepted with decent scholarships to several part time programs. After being accepted, I went and sat in a class at the University I thought I would attend. Those students scared the sh*t out of me. In the program, their estimate was that maybe 30-40% of the class worked full time. The majority of the class either worked part time, or didn't work at all. Most of the class seemed to use the part time program as a way to "ease in" to law school. The ones who did work full time were pretty universally at the middle/bottom half of their class. In this economy it's just too hard to get a job to risk being at the bottom / middle of your class for 1 yr non law salary.

Some other HUGE cons to part time programs:
-Most people get their jobs by working for a legal employer during the summer. I spoke to probably 10 people who graduated from the part time program and 5 current students - every single one said that unless your current employer will hire you as a lawyer or give you a leave of absence for the summer to get legal experience, you will be at a huge (probably insurmountable) disadvantage.
-If you work 7a - 3:30p, assuming you commute 30 mins to law school, that leaves you with 2 hrs of studying during the day. If you make it home by 10p (generous) that's leaving you with 3 15 hour days for 4 years. (I'm assuming you get one day of early release).
-Most of the clinics, law review, moot court, etc. require some time commitment during the day. You won't be able to do that because you'll be working.

Moral of the story - when I started my research, I thought I would be completely fine working full time and going to law school part time. I realized that I would probably end up moderately sucking at both. I'm not willing to risk that. I'll be reapplying to full time programs next year, and I'll just suck up the 3 years lost full time income.



I know this might be a silly question, but how much time do you believe would be adequate for studying the actual law/writing/reading/extracurricular/etc?

What if I actually have got a job working as a paralegal/legal aid, while attending part-time?

What are your thoughts? Thanks!

ps. how much time did you spend on studying for LSAT?



So you don't want to go into law, but you are considering spending 4 years to go to law school part-time and possibly leaving your current employment to take a job as a paralegal? So after 4 years of nothing but legal employment and schooling then you will just go find another non-law job?

chrisradd
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby chrisradd » Tue May 01, 2012 11:57 am

At the moment, I'm studying for the June LSAT. I talked to people who work at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles & I was told that a certain percentage of students in the part-time program will drop out & never attend the school. I was told to apply and if I had at least a 163, I had a solid chance of being accepted into the part-time program.

My mind has been everywhere recently. I would like to stay fully employed and attend either Loyola OR Glendale part time. My job will probably not be in law while in school, but in Internet marketing.

My thoughts now are if I attend Glendale Law, then I will continue on with that path. Or If I get into Loyola (since I would have to take out some serious loans, then I would really want to eventually work as a lawyer), so I have other thoughts now. I would quit working for a yr, while attending part-time. I would spend all day during the week studying/reading/etc and going to class in the evening, making sure I finish extremely well my 1L. Then I would go back into the workforce and either work as a legal aid or back into marketing (because I have already attained a lot of skills in this position) and continue with school til I graduate and then transition eventually into a lawyer position.

What do you think? I feel if I go to Glendale that other law firms wouldn't take me seriously. If I finish from Glendale, I would then want to start my own practice for more so low-income families, in which they won't care where I went to Law school..

Let me know your thoughts, much appreciated!! thx --CR

CanadianWolf
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue May 01, 2012 12:43 pm

Only invest in a law degree if you want to practice law or have a great deal of money to waste. Forget about non-ABA accredited law schools & half of the ABA accredited law schools. Loyola-Marymount part-time should work for you if unsuccessful at getting into UCLA or USC.

Get an MBA degree. If you want to stay with your current employer, then an MBA degree from a well respected business school, such as Pepperdine, should suffice. If trying to get employed by another company, then the quality/prestige/ranking of your MBA school probably will come into play---but your work history & experience should be equally important.

As an aside: I know of several people who received promotions after completing on-line (yes, Phoenix) MBA degrees. Most were long-term employees, but some had only about a year with their internationally known employer. In short, an MBA degree can lead to job security & promotions with your current employer regardless of the business school rank.

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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Going to a CBA v. ABA accredited law school?

Postby fruitoftheloom » Fri May 04, 2012 3:51 pm

chrisradd wrote:

I know this might be a silly question, but how much time do you believe would be adequate for studying the actual law/writing/reading/extracurricular/etc?

What if I actually have got a job working as a paralegal/legal aid, while attending part-time?

What are your thoughts? Thanks!

ps. how much time did you spend on studying for LSAT?


Sorry for the delayed response - my guess is that you need a solid 15-20 hours a week available for studying and legal writing class. As finals approach, that number will increase.

The job as a paralegal is actually one of the most difficult. Most paralegals are closely supervised and expected to be on task. The paralegals I know would be fired if they got caught working on school stuff at work. I would be super cautious about this job unless you knew the employer & they were flexible.

To get a 167 I studied for maybe 3 months (?), I hadn't found this site so all I did was take 10 practice tests from the 1990s. I'm going to re-take in Oct, so I'll have spent 6 months studying with the right materials.




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