GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Pick?

GW
31
69%
W&M
7
16%
Cardozo
7
16%
 
Total votes: 45

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flem
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby flem » Wed May 02, 2012 10:36 am

Wily wrote:
So assuming COL is the same at both schools, it's costing me $51k more to 'roll the dice' at GW than at Cardozo. Worth it for ~30% v ~15% chance of Biglaw?


To me, yes. Only you can make that call though.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby BmoreOrLess » Wed May 02, 2012 10:39 am

flem wrote:
Wily wrote:
So assuming COL is the same at both schools, it's costing me $51k more to 'roll the dice' at GW than at Cardozo. Worth it for ~30% v ~15% chance of Biglaw?


To me, yes. Only you can make that call though.


Is it really that much of a difference for non-IP kids?
Last edited by BmoreOrLess on Wed May 02, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wily
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Wily » Wed May 02, 2012 1:28 pm

BmoreOrLess wrote:
flem wrote:
Wily wrote:
So assuming COL is the same at both schools, it's costing me $51k more to 'roll the dice' at GW than at Cardozo. Worth it for ~30% v ~15% chance of Biglaw?


To me, yes. Only you can make that call though.


Is it really that much of a difference for non-IP kids?


Well, from current/recent students at GW, I'm hearing that about 20% of the class gets Biglaw SA's and maybe 30% total get biglaw after graduation. From students at Cardozo, I'm hearing that maybe 10% of the class gets biglaw SA's and maybe 15% gets biglaw after graduation. My guess is that at either school IP kids will do better than their ranking.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby BmoreOrLess » Wed May 02, 2012 1:37 pm

Wily wrote:Well, from current/recent students at GW, I'm hearing that about 20% of the class gets Biglaw SA's and maybe 30% total get biglaw after graduation. From students at Cardozo, I'm hearing that maybe 10% of the class gets biglaw SA's and maybe 15% gets biglaw after graduation. My guess is that at either school IP kids will do better than their ranking.


I understand that IP will generally outperform their ranking, I'm just wondering if GW is all that much better than Dozo due to IP, assuming that there are many more IP students at GW with good credentials. I guess my question is of the 30% that get biglaw at GW, what percentage of them are non-IP.

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Wily
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Wily » Wed May 02, 2012 1:43 pm

BmoreOrLess wrote:
Wily wrote:Well, from current/recent students at GW, I'm hearing that about 20% of the class gets Biglaw SA's and maybe 30% total get biglaw after graduation. From students at Cardozo, I'm hearing that maybe 10% of the class gets biglaw SA's and maybe 15% gets biglaw after graduation. My guess is that at either school IP kids will do better than their ranking.


I understand that IP will generally outperform their ranking, I'm just wondering if GW is all that much better than Dozo due to IP, assuming that there are many more IP students at GW with good credentials. I guess my question is of the 30% that get biglaw at GW, what percentage of them are non-IP.


Good question. Mi-chan in the GW accepted thread said that top 20% of the class got Biglaw SA's. I guess we can use that as a rough estimate of how the class does in general.

Are you considering GW also, Bmore?

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby BmoreOrLess » Wed May 02, 2012 1:48 pm

Wily wrote:Are you considering GW also, Bmore?


Got in off the waitlist last week, waiting to see if they are willing to negotiate. I'm sitting on a full ride at Alabama. Originally I wanted to go back down south for law school (went to undergrad in South Carolina), but I do like the idea of staying in the DMV area. No chance I'm doing it at sticker though.

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flem
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby flem » Wed May 02, 2012 1:51 pm

BmoreOrLess wrote:
Got in off the waitlist last week, waiting to see if they are willing to negotiate. I'm sitting on a full ride at Alabama. Originally I wanted to go back down south for law school (went to undergrad in South Carolina), but I do like the idea of staying in the DMV area. No chance I'm doing it at sticker though.


What school in SC?

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby BmoreOrLess » Wed May 02, 2012 1:56 pm

flem wrote:
BmoreOrLess wrote:
Got in off the waitlist last week, waiting to see if they are willing to negotiate. I'm sitting on a full ride at Alabama. Originally I wanted to go back down south for law school (went to undergrad in South Carolina), but I do like the idea of staying in the DMV area. No chance I'm doing it at sticker though.


What school in SC?


Clemson, I just say SC because half the time nobody knows where the hell it is.

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flem
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby flem » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm

BmoreOrLess wrote:
Clemson, I just say SC because half the time nobody knows where the hell it is.


CofC grad, bruh

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby BmoreOrLess » Wed May 02, 2012 2:03 pm

flem wrote:
BmoreOrLess wrote:
Clemson, I just say SC because half the time nobody knows where the hell it is.


CofC grad, bruh


How in gods name did you make it to enough classes to graduate and go to law school? There is zero chance I would have ever done anything productive in college had I gone there.

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Ruxin1
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Ruxin1 » Wed May 02, 2012 2:03 pm

flem wrote:
BmoreOrLess wrote:
Clemson, I just say SC because half the time nobody knows where the hell it is.


CofC grad, bruh


arguably the best southern town in America

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flem
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby flem » Wed May 02, 2012 2:04 pm

BmoreOrLess wrote:
How in gods name did you make it to enough classes to graduate and go to law school? There is zero chance I would have ever done anything productive in college had I gone there.


Hence my 3.01 LSDAS GPA

Ruxin1 wrote:
flem wrote:
CofC grad, bruh


arguably the best southern town in America


It wasn't too shabby, I must say.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby BmoreOrLess » Wed May 02, 2012 2:08 pm

flem wrote:
BmoreOrLess wrote:
How in gods name did you make it to enough classes to graduate and go to law school? There is zero chance I would have ever done anything productive in college had I gone there.


Hence my 3.01 LSDAS GPA

Ruxin1 wrote:
flem wrote:
CofC grad, bruh


arguably the best southern town in America


It wasn't too shabby, I must say.


See, they should really have a multiplier on LSDAS GPA's not for how difficult your school is, but for how awesome your school is. 3.01 at CofC is so much more impressive than a 3.01 at say a Wake Forest. What else are you going to do there other than study?

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flem
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby flem » Wed May 02, 2012 2:10 pm

BmoreOrLess wrote:
See, they should really have a multiplier on LSDAS GPA's not for how difficult your school is, but for how awesome your school is. 3.01 at CofC is so much more impressive than a 3.01 at say a Wake Forest. What else are you going to do there other than study?


I agree with this!

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Wily
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Wily » Thu May 03, 2012 10:53 am

I have to decide tomorrow which school to go to. Cardozo may go up to full scholarship if I tell them I'm withdrawing. GW is stuck at $25k/year, since financial aid office says I'm not eligible for grants because of my merit scholarship. I saw that between 2010 and 2011 GW went from 29% biglaw to 20% biglaw; is this a trend that might continue?

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flem
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby flem » Thu May 03, 2012 10:57 am

Wily wrote:I have to decide tomorrow which school to go to. Cardozo may go up to full scholarship if I tell them I'm withdrawing. GW is stuck at $25k/year, since financial aid office says I'm not eligible for grants because of my merit scholarship. I saw that between 2010 and 2011 GW went from 29% biglaw to 20% biglaw; is this a trend that might continue?


I don't think anyone knows. Keep in mind class of '11 went through OCI in '09 which is when the bottom really fell out. We won't know until the class of '12 data comes out.

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Wily
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Wily » Thu May 03, 2012 10:58 am

flem wrote:
Wily wrote:I have to decide tomorrow which school to go to. Cardozo may go up to full scholarship if I tell them I'm withdrawing. GW is stuck at $25k/year, since financial aid office says I'm not eligible for grants because of my merit scholarship. I saw that between 2010 and 2011 GW went from 29% biglaw to 20% biglaw; is this a trend that might continue?


I don't think anyone knows. Keep in mind class of '11 went through OCI in '09 which is when the bottom really fell out. We won't know until the class of '12 data comes out.


Thanks tflem. You've been consistently helpful in my 0L adventure so far, and I appreciate it!

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flem
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby flem » Thu May 03, 2012 10:59 am

Wily wrote:
Thanks tflem. You've been consistently helpful in my 0L adventure so far, and I appreciate it!


Glad I can be of service. Good luck to you sir.

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Wily
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Wily » Thu May 03, 2012 11:06 am

Another question - how do the positions of students with median/below median grades at either GW or Cardozo compare after graduation?

I'm looking at the lawtransparency data and 30% of Cardozo students were "underemployed" after graduation, vs. 15% of GW students. Does that indicate that median GW students might have better outcomes?

Paul Campos
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Paul Campos » Thu May 03, 2012 11:33 am

Wily wrote:Another question - how do the positions of students with median/below median grades at either GW or Cardozo compare after graduation?

I'm looking at the lawtransparency data and 30% of Cardozo students were "underemployed" after graduation, vs. 15% of GW students. Does that indicate that median GW students might have better outcomes?


Yes. Median GW grads are getting bad outcomes on average right now; median Cardozo graduates are getting disastrous ones.

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Wily
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Wily » Thu May 03, 2012 11:53 am

Paul Campos wrote:
Wily wrote:Another question - how do the positions of students with median/below median grades at either GW or Cardozo compare after graduation?

I'm looking at the lawtransparency data and 30% of Cardozo students were "underemployed" after graduation, vs. 15% of GW students. Does that indicate that median GW students might have better outcomes?


Yes. Median GW grads are getting bad outcomes on average right now; median Cardozo graduates are getting disastrous ones.


Can you elaborate about bad and disastrous? I assume "bad" = small firms that that pay, say, under $50k. "Disastrous" = completely unemployed/employed in jobs that don't need a JD? I wouldn't mind the former that much, I would mind the latter, obviously.

Paul Campos
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Paul Campos » Thu May 03, 2012 12:39 pm

Wily wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:
Wily wrote:Another question - how do the positions of students with median/below median grades at either GW or Cardozo compare after graduation?

I'm looking at the lawtransparency data and 30% of Cardozo students were "underemployed" after graduation, vs. 15% of GW students. Does that indicate that median GW students might have better outcomes?


Yes. Median GW grads are getting bad outcomes on average right now; median Cardozo graduates are getting disastrous ones.


Can you elaborate about bad and disastrous? I assume "bad" = small firms that that pay, say, under $50k. "Disastrous" = completely unemployed/employed in jobs that don't need a JD? I wouldn't mind the former that much, I would mind the latter, obviously.


Yes that's about right. "Bad" = legal job that comes nowhere close to justifying the COA/Opportunity cost. "Disastrous" = no real legal job.

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Wily
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Wily » Thu May 03, 2012 12:57 pm

Thanks, Prof. Campos. My parents have committed to helping with costs of living, so with that plus my savings I am looking only at borrowing for tuition. I would take out $70,000 in debt for GW, vs $18,000 debt for Cardozo, so a difference of about $52,000.

Would you say that it's worth it for me to take a shot at GW, giving these relative debt levels? It would be nice to go to Cardozo for nearly free, but I am gravely concerned about the potential of not finding a legal job at all afterward. GW seems a little better in terms of finding any legal job after graduation, plus it has a slight advantage in Biglaw placement.

I would totally retake and reapply, and I do plan on retaking, but my 2.7 GPA is an albatross that will prevent me from getting into any T14 school except NW, and I think that's still a long shot I feel even if I score above a 175.

Paul Campos
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Paul Campos » Thu May 03, 2012 2:07 pm

Wily wrote:Thanks, Prof. Campos. My parents have committed to helping with costs of living, so with that plus my savings I am looking only at borrowing for tuition. I would take out $70,000 in debt for GW, vs $18,000 debt for Cardozo, so a difference of about $52,000.

Would you say that it's worth it for me to take a shot at GW, giving these relative debt levels? It would be nice to go to Cardozo for nearly free, but I am gravely concerned about the potential of not finding a legal job at all afterward. GW seems a little better in terms of finding any legal job after graduation, plus it has a slight advantage in Biglaw placement.

I would totally retake and reapply, and I do plan on retaking, but my 2.7 GPA is an albatross that will prevent me from getting into any T14 school except NW, and I think that's still a long shot I feel even if I score above a 175.



Assuming this is no real hardship for your parents I think you've now gotten the numbers down to a place whether either choice is defensible. Cardozo is low risk/lower return GW is high risk/higher return. Your tolerance for risk is something you have to determine.

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Wily
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Re: GW($$) v Cardozo ($$$)

Postby Wily » Thu May 03, 2012 5:47 pm

Haha, I feel famous now that my cycle has been described as a "sign of desperation" for law schools by Prof. Campos.

I think I'm going to accept the $25,000 scholarship from GW tomorrow. Any objections?




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