Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Northwestern (Sticker)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school should I attend?

Brooklyn Law School
16
37%
Northwestern
27
63%
 
Total votes: 43

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zor
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby zor » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:17 pm

I find it interesting that the poll has twice as many votes for BC as Brooklyn, yet the comments have the opposite lean. To those of you who say BC--why? Is the prestige that much of a factor? Is it going to be geographically stronger when finding NYC jobs? (I mean these questions earnestly.)

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby dingbat » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:49 pm

zor wrote:I find it interesting that the poll has twice as many votes for BC as Brooklyn, yet the comments have the opposite lean. To those of you who say BC--why? Is the prestige that much of a factor? Is it going to be geographically stronger when finding NYC jobs? (I mean these questions earnestly.)

TLS is full of rankings whores and a lot if people vote without reading

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thelawyler
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby thelawyler » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:39 pm

Double deposit and retake. OP, I PMed you.

Tough call. I'd probably take Boston, but yeah, read my PM.

alumniguy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby alumniguy » Mon May 07, 2012 2:32 pm

Unless you want a shot at prestigious PI/Gov't, then Brooklyn is probably a "better" answer here. BC is a great school (I went there), but there are not a ton of PI/Gov't jobs to be had outside of the Boston area (and I graduated during the boom era). Taking on that much debt is not worth it if you don't have biglaw aspirations or want a prestigious PI job. And not being in NYC will definitely hurt you in terms of finding a job in NYC (or make you job search much more difficult). With that said, if you are willing to potentially compromise on entry level jobs (i.e., working in Boston or NE for a few years to gain some experience if the right job presented itself), then I think it is a closer call. BC, from my experiences, is a much more highly regarded school.

Another thought, is that staying in NYC will lead to more expensive living costs than in Boston. You don't NEED a car in Boston - certainly would be helpful for BC, however, there was certainly 5-10% of students without cars that managed just fine. There are plenty of ZIP cars to be had all over the city for random trips to the supermarket, Target, etc. You'll undoubtedly make friends with your section mates and more than likely you can get a ride into class with them. So that should be a factor brought into the cost analysis. I'd guess that living in Boston is probably about $5k less than comparable living in NYC (and this is probably pretty conservative).

And another thought, what type of environment do you think you will thrive in? BC is a very collegial place and given that it is in Newton in a somewhat residential neighborhood, the campus is very conducive to a tight-knit student body. Students generally arrive in the mornings and stay at the law school through their last classes and into the evenings to study at the law library. Students eat lunch together, relax together on campus and study together on campus. I'd be curious to see if Brooklyn has a similar vibe.

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zor
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby zor » Mon May 07, 2012 3:12 pm

alumniguy wrote:Unless you want a shot at prestigious PI/Gov't, then Brooklyn is probably a "better" answer here. BC is a great school (I went there), but there are not a ton of PI/Gov't jobs to be had outside of the Boston area (and I graduated during the boom era). Taking on that much debt is not worth it if you don't have biglaw aspirations or want a prestigious PI job. And not being in NYC will definitely hurt you in terms of finding a job in NYC (or make you job search much more difficult). With that said, if you are willing to potentially compromise on entry level jobs (i.e., working in Boston or NE for a few years to gain some experience if the right job presented itself), then I think it is a closer call. BC, from my experiences, is a much more highly regarded school.

Another thought, is that staying in NYC will lead to more expensive living costs than in Boston. You don't NEED a car in Boston - certainly would be helpful for BC, however, there was certainly 5-10% of students without cars that managed just fine. There are plenty of ZIP cars to be had all over the city for random trips to the supermarket, Target, etc. You'll undoubtedly make friends with your section mates and more than likely you can get a ride into class with them. So that should be a factor brought into the cost analysis. I'd guess that living in Boston is probably about $5k less than comparable living in NYC (and this is probably pretty conservative).

And another thought, what type of environment do you think you will thrive in? BC is a very collegial place and given that it is in Newton in a somewhat residential neighborhood, the campus is very conducive to a tight-knit student body. Students generally arrive in the mornings and stay at the law school through their last classes and into the evenings to study at the law library. Students eat lunch together, relax together on campus and study together on campus. I'd be curious to see if Brooklyn has a similar vibe.


Thanks for your response! I'm not sure what you mean by prestigious PI/Gov't--you mean like the DOJ Honors program or Equal Justice Works/Skadden Fellowships? That is an excellent point. You got me curious, so I did some research... Boston College has gotten 12 EJW fellowships, while Brooklyn has gotten 9--a difference, but not an enormous one. (And if you only count the ones from the last five years, Brooklyn has gotten 8 and BC has gotten 6.) Skadden's definitely a lot snootier regarding schools, but Brooklyn still beats BC: It's gotten four, while BC has gotten three (compare that to 119 to Harvard). So that probably won't happen no matter where I go. As for the DOJ, it doesn't show the breakdown like the others do, but both schools are represented (along with many, many lower-ranked schools) and based on previous threads here (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=93533) it looks like they care more about a big picture view of who you are than what school you went to.

Re: higher living costs in NYC, I assumed that as well, but when I actually looked into apartments in the BC/Cleveland Circle/Newton area they were comparable to what I'm paying now (I live in Harlem and have a landlord who, shockingly, has never raised my rent). If I were to live near Brooklyn Heights, yeah, no question. But where I live now is basically the same as Boston, so no real savings there.

I'm definitely attracted to BC's collegiality, and everyone I've met from BC has been so incredibly friendly and supportive. It's definitely a community I would love to be a part of, and the prestige whore in me doesn't want to have to settle for a "lesser" school, but I'm still trying to gauge whether the debt would be worth it. The classes and professors seemed great, all the students were great, and the alumni have been wonderful. Brooklyn, for what it's worth, struck me as just as friendly and even more supportive of PI/gov't than BC, and the alumni I've spoken to have also been pretty happy.

My bosses still say go to the best school you can get into, but all the informational interviews I've done with people working in public service say to go to school in the city you want to work so you can build a network of connections and intern/extern with places. For me, the appeal of BC is, in this order: prestige, geographic flexibility*, flexibility to do something other than PI**.

* Some people seem to think this is a myth, and that BC is more regional than I think it is. Do you live and work in Boston?
** One of the things about being an adult is acknowledging that interests and needs change and I may not, three years from now, want to do PI.

alumniguy
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby alumniguy » Tue May 08, 2012 5:57 pm

To be honest, I was never all that interested in PI/Gov't work, so when I talked about prestigious stuff, I was intending pretty much those opportunities you listed. I would presume that highly sought after positions would look more at pedigree than "non-prestigious" positions. BC is committed to public interest, but career services is far more committed to biglaw employment. I know there is a public interest job fair that BC students can participate in, but I don't have any specifics on it. If you wanted to get a better understanding of public interest life at BC, I'd ask to speak to someone involved with "PILF" - BC's Public Interest Law Foundation, which is a student group committed to public interest pursuits.

Lucky you re: your NYC housing experience. One item to mention is that most other things are also cheaper in boston - the subway pass is practically 50% of the NYC monthly pass. Food prices will be cheaper, entertainment is generally cheaper, etc. Just something to mull over.

I live/work in NYC. Had no connections to Boston before going to law school and while I enjoyed my time there, there was nothing that was keeping me committed to staying there. I had far better options in NYC than in Boston, so I left. My experience (and that of those people I still keep in touch with from BC), is that most people moving to NYC do so for biglaw. I don't know of anyone that is doing PI work in NYC from BC (but I certainly don't claim to know/remain in contact with everyone that I graduated with), but there are a few people doing gov't work. Just a reference point that I imagine it will be more legwork to get to NYC doing PI than remaining in Boston.

I would add in to the chorus of going to the best school you can get into, unless there are specific reasons to the contrary. Cost is definitely a factor, but many schools (including BC) have loan repayment assistance for students that are dedicated to public interest. You should check out LRAP - Loan Repayment Assistance Program at BC. I really liked BC and it is a great school (not perfect though) and I am confident that you would likely enjoy the experience as well.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue May 08, 2012 6:20 pm

If you don't want to retake the LSAT, then sit out a year if you can stay at your current job. Applications are expected to be down next year. Apply early & hope for more money & better options. Otherwise retake & reapply.

Nevertheless, when you inform both schools that you've decided to wait another year, you might receive better scholarship offers.

P.S. If there was a "right decision" this year, you wouldn't be so tortured over the decision between BC & Brooklyn.

Consider adding "none of the above" to your poll.

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zor
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby zor » Wed May 09, 2012 10:20 am

alumniguy wrote:To be honest, I was never all that interested in PI/Gov't work, so when I talked about prestigious stuff, I was intending pretty much those opportunities you listed. I would presume that highly sought after positions would look more at pedigree than "non-prestigious" positions. BC is committed to public interest, but career services is far more committed to biglaw employment. I know there is a public interest job fair that BC students can participate in, but I don't have any specifics on it. If you wanted to get a better understanding of public interest life at BC, I'd ask to speak to someone involved with "PILF" - BC's Public Interest Law Foundation, which is a student group committed to public interest pursuits.

Lucky you re: your NYC housing experience. One item to mention is that most other things are also cheaper in boston - the subway pass is practically 50% of the NYC monthly pass. Food prices will be cheaper, entertainment is generally cheaper, etc. Just something to mull over.

I live/work in NYC. Had no connections to Boston before going to law school and while I enjoyed my time there, there was nothing that was keeping me committed to staying there. I had far better options in NYC than in Boston, so I left. My experience (and that of those people I still keep in touch with from BC), is that most people moving to NYC do so for biglaw. I don't know of anyone that is doing PI work in NYC from BC (but I certainly don't claim to know/remain in contact with everyone that I graduated with), but there are a few people doing gov't work. Just a reference point that I imagine it will be more legwork to get to NYC doing PI than remaining in Boston.

I would add in to the chorus of going to the best school you can get into, unless there are specific reasons to the contrary. Cost is definitely a factor, but many schools (including BC) have loan repayment assistance for students that are dedicated to public interest. You should check out LRAP - Loan Repayment Assistance Program at BC. I really liked BC and it is a great school (not perfect though) and I am confident that you would likely enjoy the experience as well.


I have already spoken to someone at PILF, and unfortunately funds were really down this year so they were only able to fund a fraction of those who applied. I know I would enjoy my time at BC, but I don't know that that's worth $130k if I'm going to come out the other end (assuming I get a job in public interest) making $40-50k.

CanadianWolf wrote:If you don't want to retake the LSAT, then sit out a year if you can stay at your current job. Applications are expected to be down next year. Apply early & hope for more money & better options. Otherwise retake & reapply.

Nevertheless, when you inform both schools that you've decided to wait another year, you might receive better scholarship offers.

P.S. If there was a "right decision" this year, you wouldn't be so tortured over the decision between BC & Brooklyn.

Consider adding "none of the above" to your poll.


I did that last year. I'm not doing it again.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby sundance95 » Thu May 10, 2012 1:10 am

Brooklyn for sure. You're settled in NY w/a partner, you've worked in the market so you have an idea of what you are getting into & some connections, and you've already decided that you will drop out if you lose your basically full ride scholly. Your only costs are opportunity costs, and if grades don't break your way we're talking only 6 mos or 1 year of opportunity costs.

OTOH, if you go to BC and grades don't go your way, you are going to be in debt.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu May 10, 2012 7:58 pm

zor, since you seem to still be mulling over this decision, I want to strengthen what I said earlier. IMO you have no business moving to Boston to go to BC. Take the money and stay out of debt.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby zor » Tue May 29, 2012 4:09 pm

sundance95 wrote:Brooklyn for sure. You're settled in NY w/a partner, you've worked in the market so you have an idea of what you are getting into & some connections, and you've already decided that you will drop out if you lose your basically full ride scholly. Your only costs are opportunity costs, and if grades don't break your way we're talking only 6 mos or 1 year of opportunity costs.

OTOH, if you go to BC and grades don't go your way, you are going to be in debt.


dixiecupdrinking wrote:zor, since you seem to still be mulling over this decision, I want to strengthen what I said earlier. IMO you have no business moving to Boston to go to BC. Take the money and stay out of debt.


Thanks, guys. I've pretty much decided on Brooklyn. BU and BC both upped their schollys a tiny bit after a second round appeal, but the longer I think about it the more I feel I cannot justify the cost of BC given my career goals.

I'll update if anything crazy happens...

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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby i_heart_fmma » Tue May 29, 2012 4:49 pm

zor wrote:BU had terrible PI placement. The PIP president isn't even going into PI, and a BU recent alum I spoke to who's a public defender said they had no institutional support and she had to find her job on her own. That scared me away from BU.

My risk aversion is really high just because I don't have a financial safety net if BC blows up in my face. $50k from Brooklyn I can pay back in pretty much any job; $130k from BC, not so much. I am attracted to the geographic flexibility of BC, but I have been warned that BC is a lot more regional than people think, and I am concerned about being stuck in Boston.


Just crossed this. Very recent BU grad here. I just wanted to comment on this since I think it paints a very incomplete picture of BU's PI opportunities. While I understand that you may have already made your decision, I think others considering BU, BC, Brooklyn and schools like this should have a more complete picture.

True, the PIP president is not going into PI right after graduation, but this is not because she couldn't have or because she is never going to do PI again. She has a different fantastic job, which is probably why she decided not to work at a PI place immediately after graduation.

Also as for the 1 recent alum you spoke with, I don't think he/she provided completely accurate information either. Perhaps the alum did not participate in BU's 2-semester long Crim. Clinic where supervised students have their own caseloads. The Clinic has professors who are recent or current CPCS attorneys who I am pretty sure advise and recommend students for jobs. Or maybe, the student did not participate in any of the Spring Break pro bono trips where the school provides funding for students volunteer at PI orgs, like public defenders offices. And lastly, perhaps don't discount BU sooo quickly. I am also pretty sure that BU provided much more summer public interest funding with it's PIP Grants than neighbor schools like BC.

Sorry if this came off like a huge advertisement for BU. I mainly just wanted to provide a little more context to your post. Either way, good luck with your decision, and for what it's worth, if you are debating between BC and Brooklyn, I'd choose BC.

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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby LionelHutzJD » Thu May 31, 2012 11:55 pm

retake

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Nova
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby Nova » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:52 am

LionelHutzJD wrote:retake


:roll:

You either are a jerk or didnt read the thread. Maybe both.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:59 am

Nova wrote:
LionelHutzJD wrote:retake


:roll:

You either are a jerk or didnt read the thread. Maybe both.


?

I read the whole thing and came to the same conclusion.

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Nova
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby Nova » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:50 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Nova wrote:
LionelHutzJD wrote:retake


:roll:

You either are a jerk or didnt read the thread. Maybe both.


?

I read the whole thing and came to the same conclusion.


I realize that is a perfectly fair conclusion. I just thought his post was badly timed and lacked thoughtfulness. The OP stated several times they would not be retaking. They asked politely to move on. They pretty much decided and thanked everyone for their thoughts. Its over. They are not going to retake.

Besides, 2 weeks ago Lionel was considering American and Cardozo at sticker, viewtopic.php?f=9&t=184755 . Im glad he had a major epiphany, but really, who is he to tell someone to not accept a 144k scholarship to Brooklyn :P Idk, maybe Im the jerk. :mrgreen:

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LionelHutzJD
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby LionelHutzJD » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:05 pm

Nova wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Nova wrote:
LionelHutzJD wrote:retake


:roll:

You either are a jerk or didnt read the thread. Maybe both.


?

I read the whole thing and came to the same conclusion.


I realize that is a perfectly fair conclusion. I just thought his post was badly timed and lacked thoughtfulness. The OP stated several times they would not be retaking. They asked politely to move on. They pretty much decided and thanked everyone for their thoughts. Its over. They are not going to retake.

Besides, 2 weeks ago Lionel was considering American and Cardozo at sticker, http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 9&t=184755 . Im glad he had a major epiphany, but really, who is he to tell someone to not accept a 144k scholarship to Brooklyn :P Idk, maybe Im the jerk. :mrgreen:




well i was joking/being a jerk. and for the record i was never considering those schools at sticker.

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Nova
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby Nova » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:09 pm

LionelHutzJD wrote:well i was joking/being a jerk. and for the record i was never considering those schools at sticker.


Me too :mrgreen:

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Law Sauce
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby Law Sauce » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:16 pm

Definitely Brooklyn in this situation. It sounds like it is all set up for you to thrive at Brooklyn and without wanting to go into Biglaw, I doubt the difference in ranking is all that important. Plus, its almost free and allows you to make connections in NYC. This seems like a no brainer. The only reason that it may not be is because of the TLS big law mindset. Free your mind and go to Brooklyn, it seems like a nearly perfect opportunity for you. Now just have to take advantage of it.

And I agree that some people just have to move on past the LSAT, a retake is not in everyone's best interest. If you did not have a low cost option then there may be more pressure to do it anyway or not go. Here, however, you have a low cost option that will give you the opportunities that you want to go to law school for. Good Luck

Edit: if you do think that your interests may change and you may want big law or boston, then thats the only real reason to go to BC (or maybe if BC has a great LRAP, which I don't know if they do) but its not like big law falls into your lap in the T14 let alone BC

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zor
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby zor » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:03 pm

i_heart_fmma wrote:Just crossed this. Very recent BU grad here. I just wanted to comment on this since I think it paints a very incomplete picture of BU's PI opportunities. While I understand that you may have already made your decision, I think others considering BU, BC, Brooklyn and schools like this should have a more complete picture.

True, the PIP president is not going into PI right after graduation, but this is not because she couldn't have or because she is never going to do PI again. She has a different fantastic job, which is probably why she decided not to work at a PI place immediately after graduation.

Also as for the 1 recent alum you spoke with, I don't think he/she provided completely accurate information either. Perhaps the alum did not participate in BU's 2-semester long Crim. Clinic where supervised students have their own caseloads. The Clinic has professors who are recent or current CPCS attorneys who I am pretty sure advise and recommend students for jobs. Or maybe, the student did not participate in any of the Spring Break pro bono trips where the school provides funding for students volunteer at PI orgs, like public defenders offices. And lastly, perhaps don't discount BU sooo quickly. I am also pretty sure that BU provided much more summer public interest funding with it's PIP Grants than neighbor schools like BC.

Sorry if this came off like a huge advertisement for BU. I mainly just wanted to provide a little more context to your post. Either way, good luck with your decision, and for what it's worth, if you are debating between BC and Brooklyn, I'd choose BC.


No problem, I welcome additional perspectives. Re: the alum I spoke with, she did all of those things and then some. But who knows the whole story, you know?

Nova wrote:I realize that is a perfectly fair conclusion. I just thought his post was badly timed and lacked thoughtfulness. The OP stated several times they would not be retaking. They asked politely to move on. They pretty much decided and thanked everyone for their thoughts. Its over. They are not going to retake.

Besides, 2 weeks ago Lionel was considering American and Cardozo at sticker, http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 9&t=184755 . Im glad he had a major epiphany, but really, who is he to tell someone to not accept a 144k scholarship to Brooklyn :P Idk, maybe Im the jerk. :mrgreen:


It's okay, if I couldn't deal with assholes I wouldn't make it through law school. :)

Law Sauce wrote:Definitely Brooklyn in this situation. It sounds like it is all set up for you to thrive at Brooklyn and without wanting to go into Biglaw, I doubt the difference in ranking is all that important. Plus, its almost free and allows you to make connections in NYC. This seems like a no brainer. The only reason that it may not be is because of the TLS big law mindset. Free your mind and go to Brooklyn, it seems like a nearly perfect opportunity for you. Now just have to take advantage of it.

And I agree that some people just have to move on past the LSAT, a retake is not in everyone's best interest. If you did not have a low cost option then there may be more pressure to do it anyway or not go. Here, however, you have a low cost option that will give you the opportunities that you want to go to law school for. Good Luck

Edit: if you do think that your interests may change and you may want big law or boston, then thats the only real reason to go to BC (or maybe if BC has a great LRAP, which I don't know if they do) but its not like big law falls into your lap in the T14 let alone BC


Thank you so much for this, I really appreciate your comment!

I just wanted to let everyone in the thread know that Brooklyn came back to me and is now offering me a full scholarship plus a $5000/year stipend. I don't know if that new information changes anyone's mind, but it sure changed mine. Thank you, everyone, for your input. It was extremely helpful to me and I feel like I've made the right choice.

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zor
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby zor » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:01 pm

And I just got in off the Northwestern waitlist. No money left, though. I don't suppose there's any reason to take NW at sticker over Brooklyn at full ride plus $5k?

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby dingbat » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:17 pm

zor wrote:And I just got in off the Northwestern waitlist. No money left, though. I don't suppose there's any reason to take NW at sticker over Brooklyn at full ride plus $5k?

A lot of people will tell you to take the T14 at sticker over Brooklyn with full scholly plus.
Keep in mind that this board is very biglaw centric
Check NW's LRAP (especially the limitations)
I personally wouldn't fork over an additional $175k if a big salary is not your main goal.
However, if you are happy with IBR/LRAP/PSLF then NW will open more doors for you

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zor
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby zor » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:40 pm

dingbat wrote:A lot of people will tell you to take the T14 at sticker over Brooklyn with full scholly plus.
Keep in mind that this board is very biglaw centric
Check NW's LRAP (especially the limitations)
I personally wouldn't fork over an additional $175k if a big salary is not your main goal.
However, if you are happy with IBR/LRAP/PSLF then NW will open more doors for you


NW is actually an appalling $79k/year CoA, so the total debt would be more than $250k. The idea of taking out a quarter million dollars is terrifying, even if they do have a good LRAP.

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Boston College ($)

Postby dingbat » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:53 pm

zor wrote:
dingbat wrote:A lot of people will tell you to take the T14 at sticker over Brooklyn with full scholly plus.
Keep in mind that this board is very biglaw centric
Check NW's LRAP (especially the limitations)
I personally wouldn't fork over an additional $175k if a big salary is not your main goal.
However, if you are happy with IBR/LRAP/PSLF then NW will open more doors for you


NW is actually an appalling $79k/year CoA, so the total debt would be more than $250k. The idea of taking out a quarter million dollars is terrifying, even if they do have a good LRAP.

ouch. I just figured $50k per year tuition plus $5k/year living expenses and interest to compare them against your offer at Brooklyn.
I agree, $250k is scary

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Law Sauce
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Re: Brooklyn ($$$) vs. Northwestern (Sticker)

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:28 pm

With no goal of Biglaw, still got to choose Brooklyn.




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