Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

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BlueJeanBaby
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Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby BlueJeanBaby » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:41 pm

I have been brainstorming, and out of pure curiosity I was wondering which you would rather be: first in your class at a tier 4 school, or last in your class (but not low enough to be required to leave) at a tier 1 school. I understand that attending one school over another does not directly impact your rank, but I am simply trying to gauge how important ranking is. Thank you.

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ajcollege
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby ajcollege » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:46 pm

The credited response is neither.

Gun to head, I'd take first in class at a tier 4 after 1L so that I have a prayer of transferring.

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tedalbany
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby tedalbany » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:51 pm

#1 at Tier 4 and not even close. There are decent jobs for grads from almost every school if you rank high enough, but even CCN grads below median may struggle.

Rank tends to be more important than school, you just don't want to have to depend entirely on an unlikely rank (hence why it's important to go to a better school and not shoot yourself in the foot before you even start).

bartleby
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby bartleby » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:55 pm

tedalbany wrote:#1 at Tier 4 and not even close. There are decent jobs for grads from almost every school if you rank high enough, but even CCN grads below median may struggle.

Rank tends to be more important than school, you just don't want to have to depend entirely on an unlikely rank (hence why it's important to go to a better school and not shoot yourself in the foot before you even start).


Agreed, not even close. Unless by Tier 1 you mean HYSCCN or something. I'd probably rather be first in my class at University of the Pacific or something than dead last at Georgetown.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby RedBirds2011 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:56 pm

tedalbany wrote:#1 at Tier 4 and not even close. There are decent jobs for grads from almost every school if you rank high enough, but even CCN grads below median may struggle.

Rank tends to be more important than school, you just don't want to have to depend entirely on an unlikely rank (hence why it's important to go to a better school and not shoot yourself in the foot before you even start).


TCR. Number 1 at a tier 4 is loads better than last at tier 1. Of course, it kind of depends on the tier 4 but everyone I've looked at at least sends a few to big law. I'm sorry but last at a tier 1 ain't getting big law.

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BlueJeanBaby
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby BlueJeanBaby » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:12 pm

Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

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tedalbany
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby tedalbany » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:14 pm

BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.


I don't think you understand how class rankings work.

woeisme
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby woeisme » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:16 pm

BlueJeanBaby wrote:I have been brainstorming, and out of pure curiosity I was wondering which you would rather be: first in your class at a tier 4 school, or last in your class (but not low enough to be required to leave) at a tier 1 school. I understand that attending one school over another does not directly impact your rank, but I am simply trying to gauge how important ranking is. Thank you.


Depends on the schools and one's career goals.

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BlueJeanBaby
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby BlueJeanBaby » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:19 pm

tedalbany wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.


I don't think you understand how class rankings work.


What do you mean? I meant that my peers would arguably be better at taking tests (LSAT), studying (GPA?), etc at a Tier 1 school than a Tier 4 school. Could that not potentially make it more difficult to be top 25% at a Tier 1 school than Tier 4? I really am not sure if there is any real logic behind this.. just my own anxiety manipulating ideas in my head :).

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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby ahnhub » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:19 pm

A more interesting question would be something like, very bottom of the class at NYU vs. #1 student at New York Law School. (I mean, there are 50 schools in the T1 designation, and some of them send very few to Biglaw).

"Bottom of the class" at NYU I guess would mean getting only B's and maybe a couple of B- (which I think are discretionary, and if not they only go to like 5% of each class), for a sub-3.0 GPA. I'm pretty sure I'd rather be the #1 student at NYLS than that.

But I've been told it's actually pretty hard to get grades THAT bad. The grading curves at T-14 schools seem to tend to try to glom up a lot of people around median.
Last edited by ahnhub on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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2014
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby 2014 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:20 pm

BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

The bottom 5% at any school would almost assuredly not be in the top 5% at any other school. Might someone in the bottom 5% at Harvard been able to do the exact same thing that led to them doing poorly there and end up at or above median at a TTT? Possibly, but the education experience is probably similar enough that someone with horrid grades at a top school would have average to bad grades wherever. That's why everyone here advocates going to the best school at the best price you get into because there is no way assure yourself sufficiently better grades by going down the spectrum.

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tedalbany
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby tedalbany » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:23 pm

BlueJeanBaby wrote:
tedalbany wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.


I don't think you understand how class rankings work.


What do you mean? I meant that my peers would arguably be better at taking tests (LSAT), studying (GPA?), etc at a Tier 1 school than a Tier 4 school. Could that not potentially make it more difficult to be top 25% at a Tier 1 school than Tier 4? I really am not sure if there is any real logic behind this.. just my own anxiety manipulating ideas in my head :).


There are always going to be people at the bottom. You could have a class full of legal geniuses but someone will still HAVE to be at the bottom, that doesn't mean they chose a wrong school or even that something went wrong. But realistically it's usually the case that those at the very bottom probably just don't have any idea how to take a law exam. If you learn how to do that and practice enough you should be able to end up at least at median at any school.

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2014
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby 2014 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:24 pm

ahnhub wrote:"Bottom of the class" at NYU I guess would mean getting only B's and maybe a couple of B- (which I think are discretionary, and if not they only go to like 5% of each class)

I'd be shocked if you didn't have to manage at least one (probably several) C's to end up at the bottom of the barrel.

ahnhub wrote:But I've been told it's actually pretty hard to get grades THAT bad. The grading curves at T-14 schools seem to tend to try to glom up a lot of people around median.

From my understanding law school curved classes are done so almost universally on a bell curve. It's not really a T-14 phenomenon it's just how the shape of the curve works. 68% or w/e have to be within one standard deviation of the median meaning a giant chunk of people have to be clumped in there.

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BlueJeanBaby
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby BlueJeanBaby » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:27 am

2014 wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

The bottom 5% at any school would almost assuredly not be in the top 5% at any other school. Might someone in the bottom 5% at Harvard been able to do the exact same thing that led to them doing poorly there and end up at or above median at a TTT? Possibly, but the education experience is probably similar enough that someone with horrid grades at a top school would have average to bad grades wherever. That's why everyone here advocates going to the best school at the best price you get into because there is no way assure yourself sufficiently better grades by going down the spectrum.



I have 6 days to choose to accept a scholarship offer at a T4 school, or wait until next year and roll the dice on the T1 school that is also nearby. I am optimistic about my ability to gain admissions into the T1 school, instate tuition is one heck of a deal, and I would save enough from working this year to pay my tuition for the first two years. It is a gamble, and I am a very, very hesitant person. I make very calculated decisions and somehow this one goes back and forth and back and forth for me.

bartleby
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby bartleby » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:32 am

BlueJeanBaby wrote:
2014 wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

The bottom 5% at any school would almost assuredly not be in the top 5% at any other school. Might someone in the bottom 5% at Harvard been able to do the exact same thing that led to them doing poorly there and end up at or above median at a TTT? Possibly, but the education experience is probably similar enough that someone with horrid grades at a top school would have average to bad grades wherever. That's why everyone here advocates going to the best school at the best price you get into because there is no way assure yourself sufficiently better grades by going down the spectrum.



I have 6 days to choose to accept a scholarship offer at a T4 school, or wait until next year and roll the dice on the T1 school that is also nearby. I am optimistic about my ability to gain admissions into the T1 school, instate tuition is one heck of a deal, and I would save enough from working this year to pay my tuition for the first two years. It is a gamble, and I am a very, very hesitant person. I make very calculated decisions and somehow this one goes back and forth and back and forth for me.


depends where, bro. i honestly think some people at my TT would fare just as well in competition with the MVPs. going to a TTT is never a good idea - i thought we were just talking hypos.

depends what state you are in and what this T1 school is. if it's california, probably no.

ahnhub
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby ahnhub » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:16 am

I don't understand--it seems you would much rather wait the year and go to the instate T1 school. Is the primary reason you want to go to the T4 because you fear the competition?

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Ruxin1
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby Ruxin1 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:24 am

BlueJeanBaby wrote:
2014 wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

The bottom 5% at any school would almost assuredly not be in the top 5% at any other school. Might someone in the bottom 5% at Harvard been able to do the exact same thing that led to them doing poorly there and end up at or above median at a TTT? Possibly, but the education experience is probably similar enough that someone with horrid grades at a top school would have average to bad grades wherever. That's why everyone here advocates going to the best school at the best price you get into because there is no way assure yourself sufficiently better grades by going down the spectrum.



I have 6 days to choose to accept a scholarship offer at a T4 school, or wait until next year and roll the dice on the T1 school that is also nearby. I am optimistic about my ability to gain admissions into the T1 school, instate tuition is one heck of a deal, and I would save enough from working this year to pay my tuition for the first two years. It is a gamble, and I am a very, very hesitant person. I make very calculated decisions and somehow this one goes back and forth and back and forth for me.


If you think you make calculated decisions realize you need to retake.

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2014
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby 2014 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:32 am

BlueJeanBaby wrote:
2014 wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

The bottom 5% at any school would almost assuredly not be in the top 5% at any other school. Might someone in the bottom 5% at Harvard been able to do the exact same thing that led to them doing poorly there and end up at or above median at a TTT? Possibly, but the education experience is probably similar enough that someone with horrid grades at a top school would have average to bad grades wherever. That's why everyone here advocates going to the best school at the best price you get into because there is no way assure yourself sufficiently better grades by going down the spectrum.



I have 6 days to choose to accept a scholarship offer at a T4 school, or wait until next year and roll the dice on the T1 school that is also nearby. I am optimistic about my ability to gain admissions into the T1 school, instate tuition is one heck of a deal, and I would save enough from working this year to pay my tuition for the first two years. It is a gamble, and I am a very, very hesitant person. I make very calculated decisions and somehow this one goes back and forth and back and forth for me.

Odds are your scholarship has stipulations that are unfriendly and you could very well find yourself in a position where you do well but not well enough as a 1L and are now at a TTTT paying sticker for a degree that will effectively limit you to solo practitioner. If that is acceptable to you go for it, but going to a T1 over a T4 is almost always the right decision unless you already have a job lined up and just need the degree or your only T1 options are for some reason located in markets that you have absolutely no connection to.

woeisme
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby woeisme » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:10 am

tedalbany wrote:There are always going to be people at the bottom. You could have a class full of legal geniuses but someone will still HAVE to be at the bottom, that doesn't mean they chose a wrong school or even that something went wrong. But realistically it's usually the case that those at the very bottom probably just don't have any idea how to take a law exam. If you learn how to do that and practice enough you should be able to end up at least at median at any school.


What about if everyone learned how to take a law school exam?

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JoeMo
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby JoeMo » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:47 am

2014 wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

The bottom 5% at any school would almost assuredly not be in the top 5% at any other school. Might someone in the bottom 5% at Harvard been able to do the exact same thing that led to them doing poorly there and end up at or above median at a TTT? Possibly, but the education experience is probably similar enough that someone with horrid grades at a top school would have average to bad grades wherever. That's why everyone here advocates going to the best school at the best price you get into because there is no way assure yourself sufficiently better grades by going down the spectrum.


This is very true. Especially, because I've heard several times over that the curve at the TTT and TTTT schools are even more vicious than they are at the top schools.

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goosey
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby goosey » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:11 am

#1 at tier 4 but ONLY IF full scholarship or significant scholarship.

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AlanShore
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby AlanShore » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:16 am

JoeMo wrote:
2014 wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

The bottom 5% at any school would almost assuredly not be in the top 5% at any other school. Might someone in the bottom 5% at Harvard been able to do the exact same thing that led to them doing poorly there and end up at or above median at a TTT? Possibly, but the education experience is probably similar enough that someone with horrid grades at a top school would have average to bad grades wherever. That's why everyone here advocates going to the best school at the best price you get into because there is no way assure yourself sufficiently better grades by going down the spectrum.


This is very true. Especially, because I've heard several times over that the curve at the TTT and TTTT schools are even more vicious than they are at the top schools.

Also agree. I heard once (on TLS and I honesty dont know what the source of the info was but I remember it seemed legit...) that people who transfer into top schools because they did so well at their former school tend to continue to do extremely well, despite competing against people who presumably have higher LSATs/gpas than the students at their previous school.

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tedalbany
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby tedalbany » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:47 am

woeisme wrote:
tedalbany wrote:There are always going to be people at the bottom. You could have a class full of legal geniuses but someone will still HAVE to be at the bottom, that doesn't mean they chose a wrong school or even that something went wrong. But realistically it's usually the case that those at the very bottom probably just don't have any idea how to take a law exam. If you learn how to do that and practice enough you should be able to end up at least at median at any school.


What about if everyone learned how to take a law school exam?


http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... _grad.html

And pray to the gods.

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JoeMo
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby JoeMo » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:37 pm

tedalbany wrote:
woeisme wrote:
tedalbany wrote:There are always going to be people at the bottom. You could have a class full of legal geniuses but someone will still HAVE to be at the bottom, that doesn't mean they chose a wrong school or even that something went wrong. But realistically it's usually the case that those at the very bottom probably just don't have any idea how to take a law exam. If you learn how to do that and practice enough you should be able to end up at least at median at any school.


What about if everyone learned how to take a law school exam?


http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... _grad.html

And pray to the gods.


Hahahahaha... that's awesome.

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Gail
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Re: Number 1 at Tier 4 or Last at Tier 1

Postby Gail » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:55 pm

2014 wrote:
BlueJeanBaby wrote:Thank you for the responses! I keep thinking about the people who end up at the bottom of good schools. Did they make a mistake of choosing the wrong school, or did something go wrong while they were there? Obviously someone with a decent enough LSAT score and GPA to get in can't be completely daft. I have a bit of anxiety about prospectively going to higher ranked schools because I am worried about how competitive they are. I over-think everything.

The bottom 5% at any school would almost assuredly not be in the top 5% at any other school. Might someone in the bottom 5% at Harvard been able to do the exact same thing that led to them doing poorly there and end up at or above median at a TTT? Possibly, but the education experience is probably similar enough that someone with horrid grades at a top school would have average to bad grades wherever. That's why everyone here advocates going to the best school at the best price you get into because there is no way assure yourself sufficiently better grades by going down the spectrum.


There's a certain kind of person that gets bottom 5%.

It's not the stupid, it's the people that don't give a shit and don't try. They do exist. They are roughly 5% of the class.

After that, I find it hard to believe that LSAT and GPA indicate nothing. I mean, don't rest on your laurels from the LolSAT or your undergraduate degree in whatever. But everything remaining equal, effort spent studying + the same study methods + the same exam writing ability, the person with the higher LSAT and UGPA has a higher probability of getting the higher grade.

Maybe that doesn't occur when competing with people who are only 2 points away from one another though.




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