Penn vs. Northwestern

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Penn or Northwestern

Penn (15k/year scholarship)
29
43%
Northwestern (25k/year scholarship)
38
57%
 
Total votes: 67

Gemini198
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Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby Gemini198 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:45 am

Can't decide between Peen (15k/year scholarship) and Northwestern (25k/year scholarship).

Is it crazy to be torn in this decision? Or is Penn hands down the better school and I should just go?

Northwestern is tempting to me because of the financial offer, and because I prefer Chicago over Philly (although I haven't visited either of the schools and am basing this only on past vacations). I'm from CA and ultimately want to work in Cali. Not crazy about Big Law, but may have to briefly go that route to pay off loans.

As a side note, I posted a poll earlier as well. At that time I was deciding between USC and Northwestern, but then Penn offered me money and that really changed the situation. Also, I'm currently a journalist by profession and want to be able to take journalism courses while in law school (both schools allow this to a reasonable extent).

Is Penn's higher ranker and better reputation reason enough to turn down Northwestern's financial offer? Is Penn the better choice for getting back to Cali?

Thanks in advance for the input/advice!

09042014
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:47 am

Northwestern and Penn are basically peer schools. Penn probably has an edge in NYC placement, but you aren't going to NYC. I'd take NU only because it's cheaper. Otherwise pick on the other factors. 30K is a lot of money.

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rayiner
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:56 am

If you're not going to NYC and not sure on big law, then take NU. That's $400/month in your pocket for the next 10 years.

admisionquestion
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby admisionquestion » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:07 am

They are not peer schools. They are schools with similar career data (Penn outperforms by less than 5%).

Lets please squash this "peer school" TLS echo chamber non-sense.

It does not mean ANYTHING to say they are peer schools. Penn is an east coast ivy league school connected to a large college campus. NU is a midwest business oriented school in a campus away from the rest of the college.

NU places 49% in the midwest. Penn places 77% in NYC, DC or Penn. These are not "peer traits."



For the record (faced with about the same decision) I think Penn is a no-brainer. But it comes down to aesthetics. I really REALLY urge you to call both schools and make an appointment for a tour--there is no way to make the right decision without visiting. Both schools feel VERY different. This different feel is really why i contest the "peer school" notion. The TLS Myths are not enough to make an educated decision...

Sirius
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby Sirius » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:08 am

admisionquestion wrote:They are not peer schools. They are schools with similar career data (Penn outperforms by less than 5%).

Lets please squash this "peer school" TLS echo chamber non-sense.

It does not mean ANYTHING to say they are peer schools. Penn is an east coast ivy league school connected to a large college campus. NU is a midwest business oriented school in a campus away from the rest of the college.

NU places 49% in the midwest. Penn places 77% in NYC, DC or Penn. These are not "peer traits."



For the record (faced with about the same decision) I think Penn is a no-brainer. But it comes down to aesthetics. I really REALLY urge you to call both schools and make an appointment for a tour--there is no way to make the right decision without visiting. Both schools feel VERY different. This different feel is really why i contest the "peer school" notion. The TLS Myths are not enough to make an educated decision...



+1

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rayiner
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:08 am

admisionquestion wrote:They are not peer schools. They are schools with similar career data (Penn outperforms by less than 5%).


When people here say "peer schools" they mean in terms of job placement.

admisionquestion
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby admisionquestion » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:11 am

rayiner wrote:If you're not going to NYC and not sure on big law, then take NU. That's $400/month in your pocket for the next 10 years.


I'm sorry but 10K a difference is $118 a month difference over a 10 year term.

ahnhub
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby ahnhub » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:13 am

FWIW Northwestern has a very well-regarded journalism school, although I don't know how feasible it would be to take classes there.

I don't know who would say Penn has a better reputation. Among lay people neither school is particularly well-known, but they both seem to be very good at finding their grads good-paying jobs.

Gemini198
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby Gemini198 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:14 am

admisionquestion wrote: I really REALLY urge you to call both schools and make an appointment for a tour--there is no way to make the right decision without visiting. Both schools feel VERY different. This different feel is really why i contest the "peer school" notion. The TLS Myths are not enough to make an educated decision...


Unfortunately, due to a really hectic work schedule, I won't be able to visit both schools. I'll most likely have to decide without seeing either of them, which is what makes the choice so difficult. I definitely think seeing the schools would have given me an immediate feeling of where I "fit". I do like that Penn is attached to a larger campus, but I've also heard great things about Northwesterns location.

admisionquestion
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby admisionquestion » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:14 am

rayiner wrote:
admisionquestion wrote:They are not peer schools. They are schools with similar career data (Penn outperforms by less than 5%).


When people here say "peer schools" they mean in terms of job placement.


No they dont. If they did then MVP would NOT NOT NOT NOT be a peer group.

In 2010 Penns NLJ data was 51.65. M's was 31. GULC was also 31.

admisionquestion
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby admisionquestion » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:15 am

ahnhub wrote:FWIW Northwestern has a very well-regarded journalism school, although I don't know how feasible it would be to take classes there.

I don't know who would say Penn has a better reputation. Among lay people neither school is particularly well-known, but they both seem to be very good at finding their grads good-paying jobs.


I dont know any "lay people"

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:17 am

admisionquestion wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you're not going to NYC and not sure on big law, then take NU. That's $400/month in your pocket for the next 10 years.


I'm sorry but 10K a difference is $118 a month difference over a 10 year term.


Turns out, law school is now 3 years.

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traehekat
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby traehekat » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:20 am

admisionquestion, you have no idea what you are talking about.

OP, if it were me I would take the money and go with NU.

ahnhub
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby ahnhub » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:21 am

admisionquestion wrote: No they dont. If they did then MVP would NOT NOT NOT NOT be a peer group.

In 2010 Penns NLJ data was 51.65. M's was 31. GULC was also 31.


Okay fine. MVPB is not a peer group. NP is. So OP is picking between peer schools.

OP, I would think your odds at getting back to California from either NU or Penn are pretty much the same. I'd take the money.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:32 am

Tough decision. Northwestern has a spectacular setting looking over Lake Michigan. NU law shares Northwestern's Chicago (undergraduate school is in Evanston) campus with Northwestern's medical school in the most upscale hotel & dining area of Chicago.
Penn's campus is beautiful, but is close to some areas that you need to judge for yourself.

For East Coast placement, Penn is the better choice. For California, I suspect that Northwestern might edge out Penn simply because Penn law grads focus on DC & NYC.

Regardless of my impressions & opinions, I don't think that you can make a wrong choice. Congratulations !

admisionquestion
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby admisionquestion » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:33 am

ahnhub wrote:
admisionquestion wrote: No they dont. If they did then MVP would NOT NOT NOT NOT be a peer group.

In 2010 Penns NLJ data was 51.65. M's was 31. GULC was also 31.


Okay fine. MVPB is not a peer group. NP is. So OP is picking between peer schools.

OP, I would think your odds at getting back to California from either NU or Penn are pretty much the same. I'd take the money.


If your goal is cali big law i think there is a strong case to be made for NU w/ the money.

admisionquestion
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby admisionquestion » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:35 am

traehekat wrote:admisionquestion, you have no idea what you are talking about.

OP, if it were me I would take the money and go with NU.


Tiago Splitter wrote:
admisionquestion wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you're not going to NYC and not sure on big law, then take NU. That's $400/month in your pocket for the next 10 years.


I'm sorry but 10K a difference is $118 a month difference over a 10 year term.


Turns out, law school is now 3 years.


Okay so I was definitely not thinking when it came the monthly difference. Your right its 118 X 3.

In what other regard do I have no idea what I am talking about?

Gemini198
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby Gemini198 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:37 am

Thank you everyone for your response so far! People commenting seem to say that NU financial offer puts it ahead (poll oddly goes the other way), but can anyone comment to make a case for Penn?

Some of the older lawyers I've spoken to say Penn is just hands down the stronger school in terms of reputation. Apparently they see NU as really "young", since it's come up in the rankings fairly recently. They seem to think Penn's reputation will carry me further than NU. Thoughts?

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rayiner
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:39 am

.
Last edited by rayiner on Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:39 am

Just review the NLJ250 placement stats for the past several years.

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KevinP
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby KevinP » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:47 am

I think Northwestern tends to overperform in terms of placement with respect to its ranking partially because of the de facto work experience requirement. By eyeballing the employment statistics (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415), I see that Penn performs only marginally better than NU (~10% without accounting for self-selection), but I would still not classify them as peers, although they are pretty close.

I would personally would go with Penn, but choose whichever school you think you'll be happier at for the next three years.
Last edited by KevinP on Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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traehekat
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby traehekat » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:49 am

admisionquestion wrote:
traehekat wrote:admisionquestion, you have no idea what you are talking about.

OP, if it were me I would take the money and go with NU.


Tiago Splitter wrote:
admisionquestion wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you're not going to NYC and not sure on big law, then take NU. That's $400/month in your pocket for the next 10 years.


I'm sorry but 10K a difference is $118 a month difference over a 10 year term.


Turns out, law school is now 3 years.


Okay so I was definitely not thinking when it came the monthly difference. Your right its 118 X 3.

In what other regard do I have no idea what I am talking about?


When people on here refer to schools as peer schools, they are absolutely referring to job prospects. What the hell else would they be referring to? You seem to suggest it has something to do with aesthetics and "feel" of the school. Would you consider John Marshall and NU peer schools because they are both located in the heart of the city of Chicago?

You claim MVP is not a peer group, and for some reason referenced GULC's NLJ 250 stats. Those are also the 2011 stats, not 2010 (when the numbers were 42 (M) 46 (V) and 53 (P), and they were even closer in 2009 - 50 (P) 51 (M) 52 (V)).

You also supported your OP that these are not peer schools by referencing arbitrarily limited geographic placement, which is meaningless.

Finally, you said you dont know any "lay people," which was just ... weird.

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rayiner
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:59 am

Gemini198 wrote:Thank you everyone for your response so far! People commenting seem to say that NU financial offer puts it ahead (poll oddly goes the other way), but can anyone comment to make a case for Penn?

Some of the older lawyers I've spoken to say Penn is just hands down the stronger school in terms of reputation. Apparently they see NU as really "young", since it's come up in the rankings fairly recently. They seem to think Penn's reputation will carry me further than NU. Thoughts?


Penn definitely has the Ivy-league prestige, and in some places this really makes a difference (D.C. for example). At the same time, 15 years ago Northwestern was a decidedly midwestern school. The entering class in 1996 was 55% midwestern. Now it's ~30%. So it wasn't as well known on the coasts. That being said, these factors don't really seem to have affected recruiting. Most people recruiting you will be associates and junior partners, who mostly graduated in the 2000's.

PS) The ranking comment is interesting. In the 1990's, you wouldn't have called Penn solidly top 10. Penn, Berkeley, NU, Georgetown, and Cornell traded the bottom 5 spots. It's been in the last 10 years that Penn has really broken into the top 10 rankings wise. So I don't really think USNWR has anything to do with what you've encountered, but rather Penn's Ivy reputation.

09042014
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:42 am

Protip: Look at NLJ250 numbers over a great period of time and you notice a shit ton of fluctuation over time. The schools reputation isn't wildly changing year to year. So stop using them as an accurate measure of some big law placing power.

Just look at Cornell. It went from 14th in 09 to 2nd in 2010 and back to 11th in 2011. Michigan has bounced around too.

This is doubly true during recession years. The data from 2010 and 2011 is basically useless. Nobody knew what the fuck was going on, and firms were canceling OCI at schools.

Also, how are NW and Penn not peer schools even if you talk about "feel." Both are pretty corporate focused, urban schools. Both have big, and good JD/MBA programs (which probably peel off 3-5% of these schools big law percentages because they select into business jobs). In fact I probably couldn't pick a more similar law school.

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thelawyler
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Re: Penn vs. Northwestern

Postby thelawyler » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:18 am

If you're aiming for Cali, and you're indifferent about location of both schools, I don't see why not just take the money. Both school's reputations are probably similar in Cali.




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