Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

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Wily
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Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:24 pm

Hey all - 2.7/168 . More details about me are here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=182385

I just found that I was admitted to Cardozo yesterday, and after some negotiations, their final offer is $24,000 a year in merit scholarships, top 80% stipulation. Not sure about financial aid, if any. My other option is St. John's, which offered me a full scholarship, top 40% stipulation

Also, I will retake in June, and I'm riding the waitlist at 10 other schools. I want to work on Long Island or NYC after graduating, and biglaw is not a top priority. Possibly transferring is a concern, as I know I couldn't get into a T14 with my undergrad GPA, but I would love to transfer there if I do well next year.

I have to make a seat deposit decision by TOMORROW. If I don't score higher on the LSAT in June, then I am committed to going to one of these two, at least for next year. So is Cardozo's better placement numbers/location worth $24,000 more a year than St. John's? Thanks!

rad lulz
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:29 pm

'Bozo is not worth that price.

Go to St. Johns and drop out of you lose your scholarship.

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Wily
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:37 pm

rad lulz wrote:'Bozo is not worth that price.

Go to St. Johns and drop out of you lose your scholarship.


I've gone to all of St. John's accepted student events so far, and I'm reasonably impressed by the school. I know nothing about Cardozo because they just accepted me yesterday, and I hadn't researched them much. However, the TLS profile for Cardozo is a lot better than the profile for St. John's. I'm just wondering how much better my job prospects would be if I went to Cardozo, and if that's worth $72,000 more over three years...

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flem
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby flem » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:38 pm

Wily wrote:
I've gone to all of St. John's accepted student events so far, and I'm reasonably impressed by the school. I know nothing about Cardozo because they just accepted me yesterday, and I hadn't researched them much. However, the TLS profile for Cardozo is a lot better than the profile for St. John's. I'm just wondering how much better my job prospects would be if I went to Cardozo, and if that's worth $72,000 more over three years...


Total COA at each?

I know you're a huge splitter so that is going to limit your options if you retake.

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Wily
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:25 pm

flem wrote:
Wily wrote:
I've gone to all of St. John's accepted student events so far, and I'm reasonably impressed by the school. I know nothing about Cardozo because they just accepted me yesterday, and I hadn't researched them much. However, the TLS profile for Cardozo is a lot better than the profile for St. John's. I'm just wondering how much better my job prospects would be if I went to Cardozo, and if that's worth $72,000 more over three years...


Total COA at each?

I know you're a huge splitter so that is going to limit your options if you retake.


I have no idea how to calculate this, but here's an attempt:
I'd live on campus at both. St. John's housing is like $13,000 a year + no tuition, so maybe $70,000 COA for three years. I could probably swing this from savings/parents' contributions.

Cardozo's housing is $15,000 (not bad for half of 2-bedroom apt in NYC) + $24,000 tuition, so maybe $150,000 COA for three years. I'd have to take out probably $80,000 in debt to cover this.

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flem
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby flem » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:30 pm

80K debt out of Cardozo isn't crippling but it's not awesome. How badly do you want to go school?

jozzy22
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby jozzy22 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:17 pm

After looking at the employment figures I'd take the St. John's scholarship. Maybe try negotiating Cardozo, they seem likely to negotiate but if not SJU is the way to go.

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Wily
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:00 pm

flem wrote:80K debt out of Cardozo isn't crippling but it's not awesome. How badly do you want to go school?


Pretty badly, I guess. I've been working for two years as a paralegal, so I have some experience in the field. I also am quite aware of the dismal state of law firm hiring, from reading here and the scamblogs and JDU. I'm not really gunning for biglaw, but I don't want to end up doing doc review my whole life either.

From the '10 ABA numbers (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... NBd3c#gid=) it seems that Cardozo does only a little better (21%) than St. John's (19%) in placing into firms with 50+ lawyers or Fed jobs. The difference is a bit more pronounced for 250+/Fed jobs, with Cardozo at 18% and St. John's at 11%. (St. John's is significantly higher than Hofstra, my third choice, on both, which is surprising). Not sure how much these numbers represent, though. ..

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Wily
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:31 am

Any other opinions? I'm leaning towards Cardozo, especially if they'll give me some more money (I'm desperately trying to negotiate with them right now). My parents may be able to borrow some money and lend it to me so I can repay at a lower interest rate, but I really don't want to make them do that either. I have to decide by tonight.

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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby TheZoid » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:45 am

Did you apply late in the cycle? It seems like you'd have some slightly better options at 168.

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flem
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby flem » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:47 am

TheZoid wrote:Did you apply late in the cycle? It seems like you'd have some slightly better options at 168.


2.7

Huge splitter, but didn't break 170. That doesn't surprise me at all actually.

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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby TheZoid » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:55 am

flem wrote:
TheZoid wrote:Did you apply late in the cycle? It seems like you'd have some slightly better options at 168.


2.7

Huge splitter, but didn't break 170. That doesn't surprise me at all actually.


Yea, I'm wondering if the OP applied to WUSTL/other midwestern splitter schools.

ETA: My stats are very similar to the OP.

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JCFindley
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby JCFindley » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:56 am

I don't think Cardozo is so much better than St Johns that I would incur extra debt to go there. Yes, Cardozo has slightly better job prospects but it is not exponentially higher.

Just my opinion of course.....

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flem
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby flem » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:57 am

TheZoid wrote:
Yea, I'm wondering if the OP applied to WUSTL/other midwestern splitter schools.

ETA: My stats are very similar to the OP.


From the link in the OP

Wily wrote:American University - Waitlist
Boston College - Waitlist
Boston University - Reject
Brooklyn - Waitlist
University at Buffalo Law School- Reject
University of California, Davis - Haven't heard back
Benjamin N. Cardozo - Haven't heard back
Columbia University - Haven't heard back (Reject almost certain)
University of Connecticut - Reject
Cornell - Haven't heard back (Reject almost certain)
Fordham University School of Law - Waitlist
George Washington - Waitlist
Georgetown - Reject
Hofstra University - Accept, full scholarship
New York University - Reject
Northeastern University - Waitlist
University of Pennsylvania - Reject
St. John's University - Accept, full scholarship
Wake Forest - Waitlist
Washington and Lee - Waitlist
WUSTL - Waitlist
William & Mary - Waitlist

TheZoid
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby TheZoid » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:01 pm

flem wrote:
TheZoid wrote:
Yea, I'm wondering if the OP applied to WUSTL/other midwestern splitter schools.

ETA: My stats are very similar to the OP.


From the link in the OP

Wily wrote:American University - Waitlist
Boston College - Waitlist
Boston University - Reject
Brooklyn - Waitlist
University at Buffalo Law School- Reject
University of California, Davis - Haven't heard back
Benjamin N. Cardozo - Haven't heard back
Columbia University - Haven't heard back (Reject almost certain)
University of Connecticut - Reject
Cornell - Haven't heard back (Reject almost certain)
Fordham University School of Law - Waitlist
George Washington - Waitlist
Georgetown - Reject
Hofstra University - Accept, full scholarship
New York University - Reject
Northeastern University - Waitlist
University of Pennsylvania - Reject
St. John's University - Accept, full scholarship
Wake Forest - Waitlist
Washington and Lee - Waitlist
WUSTL - Waitlist
William & Mary - Waitlist


Oh right, good call tflem. I remember looking at that. Kind of a surprising cycle imo. I'm thinking about the waitlists at Wake, UConn, Northeastern...schools I would think would jump all over that LSAT. Also, isn't 168 generally auto-admit territory for WUSTL?

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Wily
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:44 pm

TheZoid wrote:
flem wrote:
TheZoid wrote:
Oh right, good call tflem. I remember looking at that. Kind of a surprising cycle imo. I'm thinking about the waitlists at Wake, UConn, Northeastern...schools I would think would jump all over that LSAT. Also, isn't 168 generally auto-admit territory for WUSTL?


Well, I think my GPA was a big liability. I'm rather happy to have gotten into Cardozo, and I'm planning on retaking. I think I'm going to end up depositing at Cardozo this weekend.

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flem
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby flem » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:46 pm

Wily wrote:
Well, I think my GPA was a big liability. I'm rather happy to have gotten into Cardozo, and I'm planning on retaking. I think I'm going to end up depositing at Cardozo this weekend.


Work experience?

1) Deposit wherever you want for now
2) Aim for 170's on retake
3) Apply to Northwestern on next cycle
4) ???
5) Profit

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Wily
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:58 pm

flem wrote:
Wily wrote:
Well, I think my GPA was a big liability. I'm rather happy to have gotten into Cardozo, and I'm planning on retaking. I think I'm going to end up depositing at Cardozo this weekend.


Work experience?

1) Deposit wherever you want for now
2) Aim for 170's on retake
3) Apply to Northwestern on next cycle
4) ???
5) Profit


Thanks tflem, this is rather close to my current plans. The sick and sad part - if you read my original post on the other thread - was that I once had a 176 on the LSAT, but blew it because I didn't know the scores expired after 5 years. Just found out last August when I logged onto LSAC, and the score just disappeared. I don't know how many times I've kicked myself this year because of this, especially after my subsequent failures at getting anywhere close to the same score I got when I was 21.

C'est la vie, I say, right before lifting another shot of whiskey to my lips.

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Robespierre
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Robespierre » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:14 pm

St. John's will take all or part of the scholly away from you in a heartbeat if you fall short of the stipulation, even by a small margin. The best way to look at it is to treat it as a two-year scholly (95K), because that is the midpoint between the best outcome (full scholly for 3 years) and the worst (one year and lose the scholly).

Dozo is offering you 72K, so the dollar difference between the two schools is modest.

I'd go with Dozo because it has advantages that outweigh the modest $ difference:

- better job placement ... you're absolutely right that the new ABA figures show the gap as not so wide, but there's still a gap;
- being in GV every day as opposed to Queens; and
- much better culture, although that's just my opinion.

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flem
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby flem » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:17 pm

Wily wrote:
Thanks tflem, this is rather close to my current plans. The sick and sad part - if you read my original post on the other thread - was that I once had a 176 on the LSAT, but blew it because I didn't know the scores expired after 5 years. Just found out last August when I logged onto LSAC, and the score just disappeared. I don't know how many times I've kicked myself this year because of this, especially after my subsequent failures at getting anywhere close to the same score I got when I was 21.

C'est la vie, I say, right before lifting another shot of whiskey to my lips.


If you've already done it you can do it again brah

Good luck

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Wily
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:55 pm

Robespierre wrote:St. John's will take all or part of the scholly away from you in a heartbeat if you fall short of the stipulation, even by a small margin. The best way to look at it is to treat it as a two-year scholly (95K), because that is the midpoint between the best outcome (full scholly for 3 years) and the worst (one year and lose the scholly).

Dozo is offering you 72K, so the dollar difference between the two schools is modest.

I'd go with Dozo because it has advantages that outweigh the modest $ difference:

- better job placement ... you're absolutely right that the new ABA figures show the gap as not so wide, but there's still a gap;
- being in GV every day as opposed to Queens; and
- much better culture, although that's just my opinion.


Thanks for the advice. Good point about St. John's stipulation being much worse. Cardozo just upped my aid/scholarship to $30,000 a year, top 80% stipulation. I think that seals the deal, and I'll be depositing there this weekend.

DTDT
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby DTDT » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:20 pm

Something smells with this whole story. Im not trying to be a detective but you may want to fix your dates or people will think you are lying.

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Wily
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Re: Cardozo (24k) vs St. John's (full)

Postby Wily » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:11 pm

DTDT wrote:Something smells with this whole story. Im not trying to be a detective but you may want to fix your dates or people will think you are lying.


?




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