ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

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funkadelic
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ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby funkadelic » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:38 am

I am considering choosing ND with an $84k scholly over $129k at WUSTL. Is it crazy to take around 45k more debt for the ND name/network and job prospects? I am from Ohio, and I can see myself returning there. I'd like the best shot at biglaw- obviously the big coastal markets will be nearly out of the question at these schools; but I would be happy in the Midwest as well.

I think my chances at landing a job at a good Ohio firm would increase at ND, which would seem to feed better into the "North Central" areas than WUSTL's Great Plains areas. Can anyone confirm/reject my thinking here? How does WUSTL do in Ohio relative to ND? I know they're peer schools, but I feel that in a scenario imagining that I am a median student, it will be an uphill battle for any good law job- so the ND name and network being stronger in my home markets may be worth it. I'm kinda terrified of being jobless and having to take the bar in Missouri post graduation.

One last thing to note- I am currently an ND undergrad. I have to admit that a change of scenery, to a place more lively and with more young people, is a big pro for WUSTL; but I also would be happy to come back here if job opportunities warrant it. I am wondering about the benefits of 'diversifying' by going to a different grad school, as well as whether my undergrad would already afford me the aforementioned (marginal or not) benefits of the ND network.

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romothesavior
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:44 am

I wouldn't say you are crazy, but a close to full ride vs. 84k for almost the same school seems kinda strange.

funkadelic
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby funkadelic » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:47 am

Romo, I've read through your question topic, let me say thank you for the valuable info in there. As a WUSTL student, how do you think WUSTL does in Ohio (assuming someone with ties)? Firm interest? Is there anyone you know from there/shooting for Cleveland/Cincinnati/Columbus?

woeisme
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby woeisme » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:50 am

Not crazy, but not the decision I would make.

CanadianWolf
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:51 am

Notre Dame's reputation exceeds that of WashUStL in Ohio, Pennsylvania & the Northeast US. I suspect that WashUStL is relatively unknown in the Northeast (New England & the Middle Atlantic states).

Visit WashUStL before deciding because of the difference in cost & because you're open to a change of scenery. Nevertheless, based on your post, Notre Dame seems to be the better option.

P.S. Cincinnati seems to have a very strong Catholic community that shares an affinity for all things Notre Dame. (Cincinnati Moellar High football coach became head coach at ND for a short time.)
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Birdnals
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby Birdnals » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:52 am

I’m an 0L, so I’m not even going to pretend to know what I am talking about, but just know that $45,000 extra you are paying after interests on a 10 year repayment plan is going to cost you close to an extra $70,000 for a peer school. That and I would imagine your UG should carry enough alumni cred for anybody who cares about that sort of thing. Just some food for thought.

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romothesavior
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:53 am

funkadelic wrote:Romo, I've read through your question topic, let me say thank you for the valuable info in there. As a WUSTL student, how do you think WUSTL does in Ohio (assuming someone with ties)? Firm interest? Is there anyone you know from there/shooting for Cleveland/Cincinnati/Columbus?

I don't know many students from Ohio, so it is hard to say. We had a few Ohio firms for OCI, but we don't seem to have a lot of alumni there.

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stratocophic
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby stratocophic » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:54 am

WUSTL. We get the big Ohio firms at OCI, from Jones Day to Dinsmore, and you'd have an advantage being from Ohio since you wouldn't be a flight risk (if you had good enough grades). Forty thousand dollars is nothing to sneeze at, and the schools are equal. This is a situation where I wouldn't even tell someone to take the one they like better- that's a lot of money.

Edit: plus isn't ND's OCI pure lottery? No guarantee you'd get in front of those firms. At WUSTL, having Ohio on your resume with decent grades should pretty much assure that you get a look.

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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby FloridaCoastalorbust » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:57 am

Tough. I would probably also choose ND, entirely for personal preference of course. Is it crazy? No. The best financial decision? No

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romothesavior
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:58 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Notre Dame's reputation exceeds that of WashUStL in Ohio, Pennsylvania & the Northeast US. I suspect that WashUStL is relatively unknown in the Northeast (New England & the Middle Atlantic states).

Okay the bold is a pretty massive exaggeration. You may be right that ND is better for Northeast, but not by much. The schools are peers and have very similar placement data year after year. ND is certainly not worth an extra 45k+ in placement power alone. Now for Ohio? That could be another thing, I don't know. But I also doubt that some ex-ND football coach from Cincinnati is going to have a whole lot to do with it.
Last edited by romothesavior on Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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blurbz
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby blurbz » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:59 am

stratocophic wrote:WUSTL. We get the big Ohio firms at OCI, from Jones Day to Dinsmore, and you'd have an advantage being from Ohio since you wouldn't be a flight risk (if you had good enough grades). Forty thousand dollars is nothing to sneeze at, and the schools are equal. This is a situation where I wouldn't even tell someone to take the one they like better- that's a lot of money.


Definitely throwing my hat in the WashU ring. I never understood why people idolize ND so much here, but maybe it's because I'm a Jew. Anyway: These schools are basically identical. You might need to hustle a little more from WUSTL if you don't get one of the firms that goes to their OCI, but your ties ought to get you back to Ohio if your grades are sufficient. The difference in debt levels simply isn't worth it.

TheZoid
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby TheZoid » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:00 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Notre Dame's reputation exceeds that of WashUStL in Ohio, Pennsylvania & the Northeast US. I suspect that WashUStL is relatively unknown in the Northeast (New England & the Middle Atlantic states).

Visit WashUStL before deciding because of the difference in cost & because you're open to a change of scenery. Nevertheless, based on your post, Notre Dame seems to be the better option.

P.S. Cincinnati seems to have a very strong Catholic community that shares an affinity for all things Notre Dame. (Cincinnati Moellar High football coach became head coach at ND for a short time.)


I kind of thought the bolded would be true as well, but I've asked around quite a bit, and just about everyone (in the legal community) knows about it and thinks of it as a good school. ND definitely has a far more recognizable name, sure, but WUSTL isn't as unknown as you might think.

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roaringeagle
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby roaringeagle » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:04 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Notre Dame's reputation exceeds that of WashUStL in Ohio, Pennsylvania & the Northeast US. I suspect that WashUStL is relatively unknown in the Northeast (New England & the Middle Atlantic states).

Visit WashUStL before deciding because of the difference in cost & because you're open to a change of scenery. Nevertheless, based on your post, Notre Dame seems to be the better option.

P.S. Cincinnati seems to have a very strong Catholic community that shares an affinity for all things Notre Dame. (Cincinnati Moellar High football coach became head coach at ND for a short time.)


ND has a very strong alumni network, but it is a peer law school to WashU. As to the text in bold, where did you come up with that? WUSTL has a great national reputation. In fact when I visited the guy who took me on a tour told me that a certain SCOTUS judge loves WashU and made a point to visit. I forget which one but the guy proudly told me that he fielded questions from the judge in the beautiful mock court room they have there. Romo probably knows who it is. OP, I strongly suggest that you visit both schools. I was very impressed with WashU when I visited. I also have the 129k offer. I do find it a bit strange that they don't just offer a full scholarship.

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mattviphky
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby mattviphky » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:07 pm

ND might give you the extra lay prestige, but since you are getting your undergrad degree from them, I don't see the added benefit. I could definitely understand the argument if you didn't go to ND for UG. But since you did, I would think that the cache of the ND name wouldn't matter when picking a law school.

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mattviphky
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby mattviphky » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:10 pm

roaringeagle wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Notre Dame's reputation exceeds that of WashUStL in Ohio, Pennsylvania & the Northeast US. I suspect that WashUStL is relatively unknown in the Northeast (New England & the Middle Atlantic states).

Visit WashUStL before deciding because of the difference in cost & because you're open to a change of scenery. Nevertheless, based on your post, Notre Dame seems to be the better option.

P.S. Cincinnati seems to have a very strong Catholic community that shares an affinity for all things Notre Dame. (Cincinnati Moellar High football coach became head coach at ND for a short time.)


ND has a very strong alumni network, but it is a peer law school to WashU. As to the text in bold, where did you come up with that? WUSTL has a great national reputation. In fact when I visited the guy who took me on a tour told me that a certain SCOTUS judge loves WashU and made a point to visit. I forget which one but the guy proudly told me that he fielded questions from the judge in the beautiful mock court room they have there. Romo probably knows who it is. OP, I strongly suggest that you visit both schools. I was very impressed with WashU when I visited. I also have the 129k offer. I do find it a bit strange that they don't just offer a full scholarship.


I like WUSTL, and many anecdotes and data point to them being total peer schools. Also, they both have amazing facilities and campuses. Stl would probably be far more fun than South Bend, however. That being said, I think ND has a clear advatnage over WUSTL in terms of scotus opportunities...but neither offer more than a marginal chance

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flem
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby flem » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:15 pm

romothesavior wrote:I wouldn't say you are crazy, but a close to full ride vs. 84k for almost the same school seems kinda strange.


mattviphky wrote:ND might give you the extra lay prestige, but since you are getting your undergrad degree from them, I don't see the added benefit. I could definitely understand the argument if you didn't go to ND for UG. But since you did, I would think that the cache of the ND name wouldn't matter when picking a law school.


These

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top30man
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby top30man » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:24 pm

stratocophic wrote:WUSTL. We get the big Ohio firms at OCI, from Jones Day to Dinsmore, and you'd have an advantage being from Ohio since you wouldn't be a flight risk (if you had good enough grades). Forty thousand dollars is nothing to sneeze at, and the schools are equal. This is a situation where I wouldn't even tell someone to take the one they like better- that's a lot of money.

Edit: plus isn't ND's OCI pure lottery? No guarantee you'd get in front of those firms. At WUSTL, having Ohio on your resume with decent grades should pretty much assure that you get a look.

I agree. I work at a large firm in a similar Midwest market. There is something to be said as far as Notre Dame love. However, I don't think it's worth 45 k. We have two associates from ND an none from Wustl. One of the other large firms has one Wustl associate and one ND one. The bump may not even exist, as it could all be self selection. If it does exist, it will be small. 45 k less in loans amounts to 600 or 700 a month you won't have to pay back. If you don't get big law, you're going to be really happy to not have to pay 600 more a month.
Id go to Wustl because 600 a month is not worth a marginal or non existent bump.

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romothesavior
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:41 pm

top30man wrote:
stratocophic wrote:WUSTL. We get the big Ohio firms at OCI, from Jones Day to Dinsmore, and you'd have an advantage being from Ohio since you wouldn't be a flight risk (if you had good enough grades). Forty thousand dollars is nothing to sneeze at, and the schools are equal. This is a situation where I wouldn't even tell someone to take the one they like better- that's a lot of money.

Edit: plus isn't ND's OCI pure lottery? No guarantee you'd get in front of those firms. At WUSTL, having Ohio on your resume with decent grades should pretty much assure that you get a look.

I agree. I work at a large firm in a similar Midwest market. There is something to be said as far as Notre Dame love. However, I don't think it's worth 45 k. We have two associates from ND an none from Wustl. One of the other large firms has one Wustl associate and one ND one. The bump may not even exist, as it could all be self selection. If it does exist, it will be small. 45 k less in loans amounts to 600 or 700 a month you won't have to pay back. If you don't get big law, you're going to be really happy to not have to pay 600 more a month.
Id go to Wustl because 600 a month is not worth a marginal or non existent bump.

I'll concur with this. I have limited info, but I am going to a market where you would expect to see a lot of ND grads, and they don't seem to have much of a bump over WUSTL there.

The one concerning thing would maybe be the lack of WUSTL grads in the big firms in Ohio, but this could be as much self-selection as anything else. Like I said, I don't really know any Ohio people, so maybe more Ohioans go to ND an return than they do at WUSTL. At the macro level, ND probably places more people into Ohio. But in your individual circumstances, I don't see either school giving much benefit over the other. If you work in Ohio your 1L year, network hard, and (of course) make the grades, you can make it about you instead of about your school. Like top30man, I just don't see it being worth 45k (and more with interest) for a small or non-existent bump.

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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:52 pm

In many respects, WashUStL & ND are equals, but not in reputation outside of Midwest--especially in the heavily Catholic regions of the Northeast (Cincinnati, Pennsylvania & Boston, for example).

Whether or not this lay prestige carries over into law firm hiring can best be determined by an examination of law firms attending OCI at each school.

In the short term, WashUStL is clearly the better choice financially, but, Notre Dame seems to fit better with OP's objective to work in Ohio. The best way to determine this, however, is to visit each law school's career services office & see the list of Ohio law firms attending that school's OCI.

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thexfactor
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby thexfactor » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:42 pm

Disclaimer: I go to WUSTL. However, most people on this forum know that I am pretty anti-wustl. However in this situation 45k is a lot of money. I would rather choose WUSTL in this case. I think ND is better known as compared to WUSTL in the upper midwest. IE Ohio, Michigan, Indiana. This makes it easier for you to network and may give you a very slight bump on hiring. However, 45k is way too much money to ignore due to the fact that both school's NLJ250 numbers are essentially the same. ( within 2-3%).

However, if you are getting this much money at wustl, you can likely get into a T14 or Vandy. Since your first law school job dictates your legal career, I would rather go to a school like GULC/Vandy/Cornell or even USC as compared to WUSTL/ND. Schools like GULC give you a 50/50 chance of gaining good employment... ie biglaw/midlaw/fed clerk/fed jobs. WUSTL/ND places prob 25% in those jobs.

funkadelic
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby funkadelic » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:34 pm

Thanks to all for the replies. I am still up in the air - the two (huge) pros for WUSTL are debt minimization and a change of pace. But I am still caught on the median scenario; if I am SOL from OCI, mass mailing, etc., what is my recourse at WUSTL? Can I still swing a legal job with my ties in Ohio? Or will I likely have to start out in Missouri?

stratocophic wrote:Edit: plus isn't ND's OCI pure lottery? No guarantee you'd get in front of those firms. At WUSTL, having Ohio on your resume with decent grades should pretty much assure that you get a look.

I'm not completely familiar with OCI jargon. By context I'm guessing "pure lottery" means that the best students can blanket an unlimited # of the best firms, even in smaller markets?


In regards to firm interviewing- Is this a reliable resource?
--LinkRemoved--

Sorting Ohio, 100K entry level:
WUSTL - 2 firms, 5 locations
ND - 6 firms, 12 locations

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flem
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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby flem » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:39 pm

funkadelic wrote:Thanks to all for the replies. I am still up in the air - the two (huge) pros for WUSTL are debt minimization and a change of pace. But I am still caught on the median scenario; if I am SOL from OCI, mass mailing, etc., what is my recourse at WUSTL? Can I still swing a legal job with my ties in Ohio? Or will I likely have to start out in Missouri?



I would think ties would help, but given the fact they are peer schools I don't think you're more boned at one than you are at the other. Given that perspective, I'd want to be in less debt.

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Re: ND $$ WUSTL $$$ - am I crazy?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:42 pm

In the likely event you don't hit biglaw, I'd much rather have the WUSTL debt than the ND debt, and on the whole, these schools are peers.




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