C/O 2010 Employment Statistics Google Doc Forum

[RedBirds2011]

Can anyone explain to me what the difference between "Government" and "State and Local" is? Is the latter referring to clerkships?

State and Local I'm assuming are clerkships; Gov't, I presume, is Prosecutors, PDs, Administrative agencies, AGs, etc.

I figured PDs would be in the PI category? Are prosecutors considered that as well?

[crossarmant]

I figured PDs would be in the PI category? Are prosecutors considered that as well?

I highly doubt PDs and Prosecutors are in the PI column. They're government employees. Public Interests are independent groups, like the ACLU or Green Peace. Not Baltimore City Assistant District Attorneys.

[dingbat]

Can someone explain something to me?

This is class of 2010, correct? Now, I don't know what the smallest NLJ250 firm was in 2010, but I imagine it was above 100. Why does Davis have 15.38% NLJ250 numbers for 2010, but only 13.92% for 100+/Fed?

I know that's a small difference in the percentage numbers, but why is this?

it's not that small a difference, as it reflects a 10% increase.
I'm too lazy to track it down, but NYU responded to a much bigger discrepancy.

Basically, it's not an apples to apples comparison. The big difference is the timing of NLJ250 vs NALP data, in that they're not measured at the same time. There were some other points that may or may not be valid (e.g. NYU claimed that their graduate employment surveys were more complete than NLJ250)

[thelogicalconstruct]

You are out of your mind to think 50-60k is a good job! With law school loans? In addition if you lived in a city you would be on the street under a bridge living in a cardboard box. May it's great for an undergrad degree... maybe a couple years out of undergrad but by 30 you better be making more or life will wipe out your bank account.

[bk1]

I figured PDs would be in the PI category? Are prosecutors considered that as well?

I highly doubt PDs and Prosecutors are in the PI column. They're government employees. Public Interests are independent groups, like the ACLU or Green Peace. Not Baltimore City Assistant District Attorneys.

PD's theoretically could be PI and not gov, but I suspect they are gov.

[RedBirds2011]

You are out of your mind to think 50-60k is a good job! With law school loans? In addition if you lived in a city you would be on the street under a bridge living in a cardboard box. May it's great for an undergrad degree... maybe a couple years out of undergrad but by 30 you better be making more or life will wipe out your bank account.

Lol good god. I understand completely the loans issue but if you think that kind of money is that bad then you either can't manage money, have stupidly high debt, are a spoiled brat, OR you live in the new York, California type areas. 50-60,000 dollars a year starting with no experience whatsoever is pretty damn good where I come from.

[dingbat]

You are out of your mind to think 50-60k is a good job! With law school loans? In addition if you lived in a city you would be on the street under a bridge living in a cardboard box. May it's great for an undergrad degree... maybe a couple years out of undergrad but by 30 you better be making more or life will wipe out your bank account.

Lol good god. I understand completely the loans issue but if you think that kind of money is that bad then you either can't manage money, have stupidly high debt, are a spoiled brat, OR you live in the new York, California type areas. 50-60,000 dollars a year starting with no experience whatsoever is pretty damn good where I come from.

That's because you're not a spoiled brat

[Gail]

I think the NLJ250 did a better job reporting for some schools, Davis and Wake Forest come to mind immediately. And ABA may have done a better job for others (NYU).

Another thing I'm looking at with ABA, some of the schools are lying. Does UNC really expect me to believe that none of their students had short term jobs? Even Duke had 8 short term jobs.

Btw. Are clerkships termed short term or long term?

Don't get me wrong. This is the best we've ever had as far as data. It's been very helpful for me personally. It just seems incomplete some how.

You are out of your mind to think 50-60k is a good job! With law school loans? In addition if you lived in a city you would be on the street under a bridge living in a cardboard box. May it's great for an undergrad degree... maybe a couple years out of undergrad but by 30 you better be making more or life will wipe out your bank account.

Lol good god. I understand completely the loans issue but if you think that kind of money is that bad then you either can't manage money, have stupidly high debt, are a spoiled brat, OR you live in the new York, California type areas. 50-60,000 dollars a year starting with no experience whatsoever is pretty damn good where I come from.

mitt romney trolling TLS again

[09042014]

Quit trying to make huge conclusions from small variations in one years worth of data. +/-5 is worthless in data like this.

Also, some people are saying Bus. and Industry = shit. That's not necessarily true, especially at schools with good business schools that do a lot of Jd/mba. They are sending people to Ibanks, consulting, F500 etc etc. In 2011 data, NU had 14 people from Business give their salary and the 25th percentile was over 100K. I'm sure Warton, and HLS/HBS students are getting the same jobs.

[romothesavior]

You are out of your mind to think 50-60k is a good job! With law school loans? In addition if you lived in a city you would be on the street under a bridge living in a cardboard box. May it's great for an undergrad degree... maybe a couple years out of undergrad but by 30 you better be making more or life will wipe out your bank account.

Lol good god. I understand completely the loans issue but if you think that kind of money is that bad then you either can't manage money, have stupidly high debt, are a spoiled brat, OR you live in the new York, California type areas. 50-60,000 dollars a year starting with no experience whatsoever is pretty damn good where I come from.

50-60k is outstanding money to start your career at when you're right out of college. But when you consider the debt, three years of opportunity cost, and hard work/stress that goes in to getting a law degree, it really isn't that great. 50-60k at a firm in flyover country is an okay outcome. It wouldn't cripple you financially, but it would be financially tight. 50-60k is solid if you have very little debt, but when you invest six-figures and three years of your life, it is pretty mediocre. Especially when you consider that many lawyers starting at that salary will be stuck at a sub-six figure salary for quite a while.

I don't think it is spoiled at all to want, or even expect, that an investment like law school at a good school should yield a higher income than 50-60k. My girlfriend started out making more than that with a B.A. in math working in a small town in flyover country. If I had spent all this time racking up debt to get a "prestigious" JD degree from a T20 school to start out making less money than her, I think that would have been a bit of a blow to my ego (and not for gender-related reasons).

[RedBirds2011]

You are out of your mind to think 50-60k is a good job! With law school loans? In addition if you lived in a city you would be on the street under a bridge living in a cardboard box. May it's great for an undergrad degree... maybe a couple years out of undergrad but by 30 you better be making more or life will wipe out your bank account.

Lol good god. I understand completely the loans issue but if you think that kind of money is that bad then you either can't manage money, have stupidly high debt, are a spoiled brat, OR you live in the new York, California type areas. 50-60,000 dollars a year starting with no experience whatsoever is pretty damn good where I come from.

50-60k is outstanding money to start your career at when you're right out of college. But when you consider the debt, three years of opportunity cost, and hard work/stress that goes in to getting a law degree, it really isn't that great. 50-60k at a firm in flyover country is an okay outcome. It wouldn't cripple you financially, but it would be financially tight. 50-60k is solid if you have very little debt, but when you invest six-figures and three years of your life, it is pretty mediocre. Especially when you consider that many lawyers starting at that salary will be stuck at a sub-six figure salary for quite a while.

I don't think it is spoiled at all to want, or even expect, that an investment like law school at a good school should yield a higher income than 50-60k. My girlfriend started out making more than that with a B.A. in math working in a small town in flyover country. If I had spent all this time racking up debt to get a "prestigious" JD degree from a T20 school to start out making less money than her, I think that would have been a bit of a blow to my ego (and not for gender-related reasons).

You see, I agree with most of what you said here especially with respects to the loans. However, i have heard of very very few people hitting 50-60,000 straight out of undergrad, especially ITE. To me, that is an insane amount of money to make straight out of college with hardly any experience. Listening to people complain about that kind of money makes me think that maybe the baby boomers really do have a point about our generation and this entitlement complex. The salary is not an issue honestly, unless you saw law school as a get rich quick scheme and did not actually want to be a lawyer or have an idea on what it is all about. The real issue is the absurd cost of tuition.

Life has never, and will NEVER have a guarantee of obtaining an absurdly high salary. A lot of the attitude on these boards and in other professions as well with people our age indicate they think life should give them trophies just for participating.

[09042014]

200K over a 30 year repayment is 1300 a month. So you really only have to earn 15K~ (After tax) a year more than if you hadn't gone to lawl school to break even in the long term. That's probably ~20K a year in earnings at the low end. More like 30K at higher levels of income.

[laxbrah420]

ya and just for 30 years. after that youll be livin it up

[09042014]

ya and just for 30 years. after that youll be livin it up

20K more per year is a lot. Especially when you talking about fairly smart people with college degrees.

[NinerFan]

Quit trying to make huge conclusions from small variations in one years worth of data. +/-5 is worthless in data like this.

Also, some people are saying Bus. and Industry = shit. That's not necessarily true, especially at schools with good business schools that do a lot of Jd/mba. They are sending people to Ibanks, consulting, F500 etc etc. In 2011 data, NU had 14 people from Business give their salary and the 25th percentile was over 100K. I'm sure Warton, and HLS/HBS students are getting the same jobs.

+1 to this.

[dingbat]

You see, I agree with most of what you said here especially with respects to the loans. However, i have heard of very very few people hitting 50-60,000 straight out of undergrad, especially ITE. To me, that is an insane amount of money to make straight out of college with hardly any experience. .

This really comes down to where you grew up and what your background is. $50,000 in barely enough to live decently in NY, while compared to where I used to live, it'd make you one of the wealthiest in town.

Even in NY, there are very few jobs that pay such a high salary straight out of college. Typically, it means an Ivy degree (that may have set you back $100-$200k already) and the kind of work that requires 10+ hours per day, 6 days a week. If somone works 70 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, that comes down to $14 per hour, so the wage isn't actually that high, if you think about it.

But I do agree that this generation has a big entitlement thing going. If I were to lose my job today, I'd be flipping burgers at McDonalds tomorrow. Somehow I don't see many college educated people doing that today.

[crossarmant]

This really comes down to where you grew up and what your background is. $50,000 in barely enough to live decently in NY, while compared to where I used to live, it'd make you one of the wealthiest in town.

Even in NY, there are very few jobs that pay such a high salary straight out of college. Typically, it means an Ivy degree (that may have set you back $100-$200k already) and the kind of work that requires 10+ hours per day, 6 days a week. If somone works 70 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, that comes down to $14 per hour, so the wage isn't actually that high, if you think about it.

But I do agree that this generation has a big entitlement thing going. If I were to lose my job today, I'd be flipping burgers at McDonalds tomorrow. Somehow I don't see many college educated people doing that today.

Agreed. So many people on here will cry about a $50-60k salary like it would be a direct ticket to the soup kitchen. I think so many people forget what other people make; the overall median income for all 155 million persons over the age of 15 who worked with earnings in 2005 was $28,567. $50-60k still puts you at twice the median income. I don't know what kind of backgrounds you guys come from where that's a bad starting salary. I can understand the crunch with loan debts, but that's what IBR is there for.

I agree that in some places, like NYC, it can be a real challenge. I have a friend who graduated from the top architecture in the nation near the top of his class and is working for $30k in NYC, I have friends with masters in various fields of engineering from a T10 engineering school yet they all make around $50-60k, with a salary ceiling of around $100k after years and years there. The one person I know who made bank out of school was a friend who got a masters in Electrical Engineering from a T10 school and works for a defense contractor making $80k; let us not forget, if you're at a T10 law school you stand a 50ish% chance of making TWICE that amount right out of school. What level of entitlement do we all have where $60k=suicide?

[flem]

Quit trying to make huge conclusions from small variations in one years worth of data. +/-5 is worthless in data like this.

Also, some people are saying Bus. and Industry = shit. That's not necessarily true, especially at schools with good business schools that do a lot of Jd/mba. They are sending people to Ibanks, consulting, F500 etc etc. In 2011 data, NU had 14 people from Business give their salary and the 25th percentile was over 100K. I'm sure Warton, and HLS/HBS students are getting the same jobs.

Well to be fair, I don't think anyone was suspecting Bus/Industry stats from top schools like that are suspect. It's more about when a TTT says they have 20% in Bus/Industry that raises a red flag because they're not sending people into Ibanking and consulting.

[drmguy]

Quit trying to make huge conclusions from small variations in one years worth of data. +/-5 is worthless in data like this.

Also, some people are saying Bus. and Industry = shit. That's not necessarily true, especially at schools with good business schools that do a lot of Jd/mba. They are sending people to Ibanks, consulting, F500 etc etc. In 2011 data, NU had 14 people from Business give their salary and the 25th percentile was over 100K. I'm sure Warton, and HLS/HBS students are getting the same jobs.

Well to be fair, I don't think anyone was suspecting Bus/Industry stats from top schools like that are suspect. It's more about when a TTT says they have 20% in Bus/Industry that raises a red flag because they're not sending people into Ibanking and consulting.

+1

[romothesavior]

Quit trying to make huge conclusions from small variations in one years worth of data. +/-5 is worthless in data like this.

Also, some people are saying Bus. and Industry = shit. That's not necessarily true, especially at schools with good business schools that do a lot of Jd/mba. They are sending people to Ibanks, consulting, F500 etc etc. In 2011 data, NU had 14 people from Business give their salary and the 25th percentile was over 100K. I'm sure Warton, and HLS/HBS students are getting the same jobs.

Well to be fair, I don't think anyone was suspecting Bus/Industry stats from top schools like that are suspect. It's more about when a TTT says they have 20% in Bus/Industry that raises a red flag because they're not sending people into Ibanking and consulting.

+1

+2

[CanadianWolf]

NLJ250 stats should be used over several consecutive years to get an accurate idea of any particular law school's placement & trend. NLJ250 is probably the best verifiable data on biglaw placement available each year school by school.

Regarding the note that Georgetown places about 13% into government, I suspect that many of these are returning to their old departments/careers.

[Samara]

Huh, Yale's employment is kind of weak compared to Stanford and Harvard. Even compared to CCN.

Just a c/o 2010 blip?

[Birdnals]

Agreed. So many people on here will cry about a $50-60k salary like it would be a direct ticket to the soup kitchen. I think so many people forget what other people make; the overall median income for all 155 million persons over the age of 15 who worked with earnings in 2005 was $28,567. $50-60k still puts you at twice the median income. I don't know what kind of backgrounds you guys come from where that's a bad starting salary. I can understand the crunch with loan debts, but that's what IBR is there for.

Doesn't that stat include anybody with any job what-so-ever? So 15-23 y/os are almost all part time jobs, and including everybody without college or even high school degrees with jobs? That just seems like a pretty hard statistic to us to compare to people with 7+ years of higher education.

I’m not saying that 50-60K is a bad salary, but I would be surprised if many of my business friends who went straight to jobs post-college aren’t making that after they have 3+ years of experience. And that is without student loans to pay back. I can see how somebody with a law degree from any of the T1 schools with 6 figures in debt would be disappointed with a 50K job working close to big law hours (not to say they shouldn’t see that coming as a very real possibility they should have prepared for)

[flem]

Huh, Yale's employment is kind of weak compared to Stanford and Harvard. Even compared to CCN.

Just a c/o 2010 blip?

What a fucking TTT in decline

[drmguy]

Huh, Yale's employment is kind of weak compared to Stanford and Harvard. Even compared to CCN.

Just a c/o 2010 blip?

The ABA doesn't include LT employment with the school in total LT employment. I didn't include it in the graphs either. Both H and Y have a decent chunk of LT school employment. After you take that into account, the "no LT employment" for Y is ~1% and ~3% for H.