ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

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flem
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby flem » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:42 pm

rayiner wrote:
This is for C/O 2010. This was a bad year, but not the year the bottom fell out. Lehman collapsed in September 2008 after firms had already planned their hiring for the year. It was the next year, OCI 2009 where they cut back dramatically. So the data for C/O 2011 is worse.

The data for C/O 2012 is better, but not by a huge margin. E.g. Chicago went from 69% big law SA's for C/O 2011 to 76% big law SA's for C/O 2012. Still down from 90% big law SA's for C/O 2010.


Pardon my ignorance sir, but where can one find stats on summer associate positions? Never seen that before and would like to.

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romothesavior
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:42 pm

drmguy wrote:
drmguy wrote:I made a google spreadsheet with the following percentages:

% of Firm 51+ and Fed Clerk

% of Firm 101+ and Fed Clerk

% of Firm 251+ and Fed Clerk

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

All of them are using only long term positions. Also, I divided them by total graduates.


Anyone want me to modify this?

This is quite good, thanks.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:43 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:Isn't this incredibly old and useless data? Didn't we already know that this was one of the worst years for hiring (this is the year the bottom fell out)?


I actually don't remember anymore. Haha but I think the answer is no.

FWIW, TLS has now said the '08, '09, and now '10 were "the worst year for legal hiring/when the bottom fell out."


Pretty sure the bottom fell out in 2008 which means that this is the final picture of the hiring bottom because the class of 2010 did OCI in 2008.


You're right, but I just mean people have been trying to excuse employment for a few years now.

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rayiner
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby rayiner » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:45 pm

FlanAl wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:Isn't this incredibly old and useless data? Didn't we already know that this was one of the worst years for hiring (this is the year the bottom fell out)?


I actually don't remember anymore. Haha but I think the answer is no.

FWIW, TLS has now said the '08, '09, and now '10 were "the worst year for legal hiring/when the bottom fell out."


Pretty sure the bottom fell out in 2008 which means that this is the final picture of the hiring bottom because the class of 2010 did OCI in 2008.

Pretty sure 09s OCI was worse than 08s


OCI 2008 was down like 20%. OCI 2009 was down 50% on top of that.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:47 pm

rayiner wrote:
OCI 2008 was down like 20%. OCI 2009 was down 50% on top of that.


Uhm. So next year OCI dependent schools will have 50% worse employment than this?

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drmguy
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby drmguy » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:48 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
drmguy wrote:Ok, I added 501+Fed.

Employment Data Percentages

Added tabs for California, New York, DC and Philly

I'm sure I am missing schools because I relied on ctrl + f and the TLS top 100 + tier3/4 lists and not all the state abbreviations are on that list.

Anyway to allow it to be imported to allow sorting? If not, can you sort against a column (anyone besides alphabetical would be cool)
I sort of like my stat of (Employed - Business)/grads and if you include that I can delete (or correct to ".") my post.

Thanks for doing this.


Updated to have a sheet that ranks by any long term employment

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Bronck
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Bronck » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:53 pm

flem wrote:
rayiner wrote:
This is for C/O 2010. This was a bad year, but not the year the bottom fell out. Lehman collapsed in September 2008 after firms had already planned their hiring for the year. It was the next year, OCI 2009 where they cut back dramatically. So the data for C/O 2011 is worse.

The data for C/O 2012 is better, but not by a huge margin. E.g. Chicago went from 69% big law SA's for C/O 2011 to 76% big law SA's for C/O 2012. Still down from 90% big law SA's for C/O 2010.


Pardon my ignorance sir, but where can one find stats on summer associate positions? Never seen that before and would like to.


Not many schools have it listed, but bottom of page for CLS: http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

And here for Chi: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata

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NinerFan
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby NinerFan » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:54 pm

Just wanted to note that while most Business jobs are probably BS, there are people at my law school with MBAs/pursuing MBAs that end up working at FT legit non-law positions with businesses. Are they doing legal work? No idea.

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rayiner
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby rayiner » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:55 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:You're right, but I just mean people have been trying to excuse employment for a few years now.


Its just been getting worse every year as we learn more.
The recession "started" in 2008, but nobody really fully understood the implications of the Lehman collapse until 2009. That was when the bottom fell out of all the other markets.
C/O 2008 were first year associates. A ton got Lathamed. Worst year ever?
C/O 2009 was starting work. They had a ton of full-time offers rescinded. Worst year ever?
C/O 2010 was finishing up their SA's then. They had a ton of no-offers from their SAs. Worst year ever?
C/O 2011 was doing their OCI then. They didn't even get SA positions. Worst year ever?

In reality, all four classes got screwed in different ways, though I think each successive class got it worse. It's hard to fire folks, but somewhat easier to tell people they can't start, even easier to not give summers permanent offers, and really easy to never hire summers in the first place.

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Ludo!
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Ludo! » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:56 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rayiner wrote:
OCI 2008 was down like 20%. OCI 2009 was down 50% on top of that.


Uhm. So next year OCI dependent schools will have 50% worse employment than this?


Lol yeah don't worry it's only schools that have OCI that will have low employment numbers.

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romothesavior
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:57 pm

The spreadsheet of "50-500+ and fed clerkships" seems to confirm so much of the "TLS groupthink" or "hivemind" or whatever you want to call it regarding firm placement for T15-30 schools.

-Vandy/USC/UCLA/UT are in a class below the T14, but clearly higher than the T20.
-BU/BC/Fordham are slightly below this group, but above the "Midwest T20s" in firm placement.
-ND, Illinois, and WUSTL are truly peers, as much as any schools could be. Every reliable job stat I have ever seen has them lumped closely together.
-UMN and Iowa are a step below WUSTL/ND/Illinois.
-Indiana, Wisconsin, Arizona State, and Washington are T30 in in name only.

Though I'd be interested to see how these compare to future numbers before making definitive conclusions, they seem to align with how I've always thought of these schools relative to one another.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:57 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rayiner wrote:
OCI 2008 was down like 20%. OCI 2009 was down 50% on top of that.


Uhm. So next year OCI dependent schools will have 50% worse employment than this?


Lol yeah don't worry it's only schools that have OCI that will have low employment numbers.


That came out wrong.

So class of 2011 will be way worse, though?

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:58 pm

rayiner wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:You're right, but I just mean people have been trying to excuse employment for a few years now.


Its just been getting worse every year as we learn more.
The recession "started" in 2008, but nobody really fully understood the implications of the Lehman collapse until 2009. That was when the bottom fell out of all the other markets.
C/O 2008 were first year associates. A ton got Lathamed. Worst year ever?
C/O 2009 was starting work. They had a ton of full-time offers rescinded. Worst year ever?
C/O 2010 was finishing up their SA's then. They had a ton of no-offers from their SAs. Worst year ever?
C/O 2011 was doing their OCI then. They didn't even get SA positions. Worst year ever?

In reality, all four classes got screwed in different ways, though I think each successive class got it worse. It's hard to fire folks, but somewhat easier to tell people they can't start, even easier to not give summers permanent offers, and really easy to never hire summers in the first place.


Thanks for this. interesting.

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drmguy
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby drmguy » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:01 pm

romothesavior wrote:The spreadsheet of "50-500+ and fed clerkships" seems to confirm so much of the "TLS groupthink" or "hivemind" or whatever you want to call it regarding firm placement for T15-30 schools.

-Vandy/USC/UCLA/UT are in a class below the T14, but clearly higher than the T20.
-BU/BC/Fordham are slightly below this group, but above the "Midwest T20s" in firm placement.
-ND, Illinois, and WUSTL are truly peers, as much as any schools could be. Every reliable job stat I have ever seen has them lumped closely together.
-UMN and Iowa are a step below WUSTL/ND/Illinois.
-Indiana, Wisconsin, Arizona State, and Washington are T30 in in name only.

Though I'd be interested to see how these compare to future numbers before making definitive conclusions, they seem to align with how I've always thought of these schools relative to one another.


Just updated to have a sheet for that.
Law School Employment Spreadsheet
Last edited by drmguy on Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ludo!
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Ludo! » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:01 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rayiner wrote:
OCI 2008 was down like 20%. OCI 2009 was down 50% on top of that.


Uhm. So next year OCI dependent schools will have 50% worse employment than this?


Lol yeah don't worry it's only schools that have OCI that will have low employment numbers.


That came out wrong.

So class of 2011 will be way worse, though?


Ah sorry I misread. But yeah I think '11 got hit the hardest. I'll be really interested to see the comparison when the ABA puts out their numbers

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skers
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby skers » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:01 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rayiner wrote:
OCI 2008 was down like 20%. OCI 2009 was down 50% on top of that.


Uhm. So next year OCI dependent schools will have 50% worse employment than this?


Lol yeah don't worry it's only schools that have OCI that will have low employment numbers.


That came out wrong.

So class of 2011 will be way worse, though?


You can already see a fair bit of c/o 2011.

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rayiner
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby rayiner » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:02 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rayiner wrote:
OCI 2008 was down like 20%. OCI 2009 was down 50% on top of that.


Uhm. So next year OCI dependent schools will have 50% worse employment than this?


Not uniformly, but basically. Look at Virginia: http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

For C/O 2010, which is what's in this ABA data, they had 50% in 100+ attorney firms. For C/O 2011, it was 37% (a decline of 30%).

The folks that will be hit the hardest in next year's data are schools outside the T25. The drop from the 2009 to 2010 data is the result of no-offers which affected higher-ranked schools and lower-ranked schools equivalently. However for 2010 to 2011 the drop is due to firms cutting back on OCI, and they cut back further at lower-ranked schools.

Take a look at William and Mary: http://law.wm.edu/careerservices/index.php. They dropped from 16% in 100+ attorney firms to 7% (a decline of 56%).

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romothesavior
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:05 pm

drmguy wrote:
romothesavior wrote:The spreadsheet of "50-500+ and fed clerkships" seems to confirm so much of the "TLS groupthink" or "hivemind" or whatever you want to call it regarding firm placement for T15-30 schools.

-Vandy/USC/UCLA/UT are in a class below the T14, but clearly higher than the T20.
-BU/BC/Fordham are slightly below this group, but above the "Midwest T20s" in firm placement.
-ND, Illinois, and WUSTL are truly peers, as much as any schools could be. Every reliable job stat I have ever seen has them lumped closely together.
-UMN and Iowa are a step below WUSTL/ND/Illinois.
-Indiana, Wisconsin, Arizona State, and Washington are T30 in in name only.

Though I'd be interested to see how these compare to future numbers before making definitive conclusions, they seem to align with how I've always thought of these schools relative to one another.


Just updated to have a sheet for that.
Law School Employment Spreadsheet

This is really fantastic stuff, man. Really appreciate it.

I think it really goes to show how meaningless USNWR is after you get past a certain range. Schools like Indiana and Wisconsin place on par with SLU, Drexel, and Wayne State?

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Mr. Somebody » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:08 pm

Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

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laxbrah420
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby laxbrah420 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:12 pm

that sheet is the tits --the NY page doesn't include some schools (yeshiva, brooklyn, seton hall)
any shot you wanna add a ranking column on the rankings page? just for shits

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romothesavior
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:16 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Mr. Somebody » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:17 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).


Is C/O 2010 still considered "pre-ITE"?

Cause honestly if future classes can expect close to this placement just about any T14 looks like a great investment
Last edited by Mr. Somebody on Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:17 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).


Is C/O 2010 still considered "pre-ITE"?

No, c/o 2010 is what you are looking at. It is post-ITE, but before shit really hit the fan. Read the thread, especially Rayiner's posts.

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romothesavior
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:20 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).


Is C/O 2010 still considered "pre-ITE"?

Cause honestly if future classes can expect close to this placement just about any T14 looks like a great investment

Georgetown placed less than 50% of their students into firms of 50+ or federal clerkships. A ton of those jobs are way under market, some maybe in the 50-60k range. If future classes are similar to this, then how is that a "great investment?"

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: ABA just released detailed employment stats for 2010

Postby Mr. Somebody » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:22 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Is there any chance classes of 2014 and beyond will approach these #'s, particularly for the T14?

I think that the data for my class (2013) will be similar to that of the c/o 2010, maybe a tad lower. In other words, nowhere near pre-ITE, but better than the shitshow data from 2011 (the class that OCI'd in 2009).


Is C/O 2010 still considered "pre-ITE"?

Cause honestly if future classes can expect close to this placement just about any T14 looks like a great investment

Georgetown placed less than 50% of their students into firms of 50+ or federal clerkships. A ton of those jobs are way under market, some maybe in the 50-60k range. If future classes are similar to this, then how is that a "great investment?"


My bad

Any T14 minus Georgetown 8)




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