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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:53 pm
by Incubateus
dissonance1848 wrote:Hate to break it to you, but the legal market ain't that hot. A large number of law school graduates don't find legal jobs (full time or part time doc review gigs), and end up taking a non-legal job to pay the bills. For those who do find legal work, most of them are struggling to make ends meet and pay the bills with 100k and higher debt loads on incomes of 40-60k.

This has nothing to do with picking a fight. If I tell you 1+1=2, and give you the proof, are you going to say no, and pronounce that 1+1=3?


I'm going to tell you that 1+1=2 isn't a statistical probability and that most math regarding law schools doesn't even establish a proper correlation.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:57 pm
by flem
Incubateus wrote:
dissonance1848 wrote:Hate to break it to you, but the legal market ain't that hot. A large number of law school graduates don't find legal jobs (full time or part time doc review gigs), and end up taking a non-legal job to pay the bills. For those who do find legal work, most of them are struggling to make ends meet and pay the bills with 100k and higher debt loads on incomes of 40-60k.

This has nothing to do with picking a fight. If I tell you 1+1=2, and give you the proof, are you going to say no, and pronounce that 1+1=3?


I'm going to tell you that 1+1=2 isn't a statistical probability and that most math regarding law schools doesn't even establish a proper correlation.


wut

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:00 pm
by dissonance1848
Clearly you missed my point, OP. What I stated above is true, a given. As for statistical probability, would you play a game where you have only a 10% or less chance of winning? And if you were to lose, it wouldn't just be sunk costs, but also opportunity costs, and literally lost income (loan and debt expenses). Does that make sense to you?

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:11 pm
by Incubateus
What you told me is that I shouldn't go. Let's make a valiant assumption: I end up #1 in my class. Knowing this going in, would you recommend that I still not go? What if reverse that, I am now last in my class. Clearly you would still recommend that I not go. I would agree with you there.

What I'm saying is that "the legal market isn't so hot right now" is very much based on what market you are in and what your market aspect is. The sentiment that things are terrible right now is also based on a lot of poor statistical data. The sample size and the response rates allow for a failure variance that is simply too large to make many definitive conclusions.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:12 pm
by flem
Incubateus wrote:What you told me is that I shouldn't go. Let's make a valiant assumption: I end up #1 in my class. Knowing this going in, would you recommend that I still not go? What if reverse that, I am now last in my class. Clearly you would still recommend that I not go. I would agree with you there.

What I'm saying is that "the legal market isn't so hot right now" is very much based on what market you are in and what your market aspect is. The sentiment that things are terrible right now is also based on a lot of poor statistical data. The sample size and the response rates allow for a failure variance that is simply too large to make many definitive conclusions.


what is this i don't even

If you want to go then go bruh. It's a gamble few will win and everyone else will lose. Good luck to you (seriously)

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:15 pm
by romothesavior
Hey I got a novel idea. Lets assume you finish median.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:25 pm
by Lwoods
romothesavior wrote:Hey I got a novel idea. Lets assume you finish median.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:34 pm
by JoeMo
Incubateus wrote:What you told me is that I shouldn't go. Let's make a valiant assumption: I end up #1 in my class. Knowing this going in, would you recommend that I still not go? What if reverse that, I am now last in my class. Clearly you would still recommend that I not go. I would agree with you there.

What I'm saying is that "the legal market isn't so hot right now" is very much based on what market you are in and what your market aspect is. The sentiment that things are terrible right now is also based on a lot of poor statistical data. The sample size and the response rates allow for a failure variance that is simply too large to make many definitive conclusions.


Image

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:35 pm
by TatteredDignity
This thread is frustrating in part because OP seems like an otherwise intelligent, thoughtful person who could probably get a way better LSAT score and not have to rationalize these terrible options. Instead, he's sticking his fingers in his ears and going "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU GAIZ!"

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:50 pm
by JamesChapman23
Brothers,

Leave OP alone. He made his decision, but posted this thread in hopes to get justification. He isn't getting that, and the cognitive dissonance is setting in.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:51 pm
by Incubateus
If you assume median placement out of GMU or OSU, you would assume median salary. Which for GMU would be 90k or so (the response rate makes everything iffy) and for OSU it would be just around 80k. Both of which aren't as devastating as you make the 60k sound. And again, don't discount the bonuses and raises over ten years. These are all pretty much inconclusive though because there just isn't enough information.

And I'm not plugging my ears. It's just that everything on this website has the same carbon copy response -- and there are definitely holes in not only the answer, but the philosophy that money and prestige should be the biggest factors when considering a school. I agree that prestige will open more doors and thus more freedom and happiness, and that debt is a chain to freedom also, but it doesn't preclude going at all and still being happy. If you've actually gone out and worked another job (not in the "let's burn a few years before law school", but in the "this is my lifelong career" mindset) you will quickly understand that even with debt and limited opportunities, the right or wrong career choice can be a far greater burden to bear.

And I haven't "made my decision JamesChapman23", and I'm not looking for justification or confirmation. I'm looking for realistic insights to both schools from students or alumni, or people who have some sort of scope that breaks through all of the bullshit out there. Information like that would actually help me make a decision.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:52 pm
by flem
Incubateus wrote:If you assume median placement out of GMU or OSU, you would assume median salary. Which for GMU would be 90k or so (the response rate makes everything iffy) and for OSU it would be just around 80k. Both of which aren't as devastating as you make the 60k sound. And again, don't discount the bonuses and raises over ten years. These are all pretty much inconclusive though because there just isn't enough information.



There is so much wrong with this statement I don't even know where to begin.

Look at how these are clustered. Keeping in mind that the response rate for the 40-60K cluster is lower since people who make less tend to not respond to salary questions, and the 60-160K range is made up of biglaw firms in secondary markets.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:53 pm
by JoeMo
Incubateus wrote:If you assume median placement out of GMU or OSU, you would assume median salary. Which for GMU would be 90k or so (the response rate makes everything iffy) and for OSU it would be just around 80k. Both of which aren't as devastating as you make the 60k sound. And again, don't discount the bonuses and raises over ten years. These are all pretty much inconclusive though because there just isn't enough information.



WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS? I CAN'T EVEN. YOU'RE JUST STUPID.
sorry everyone else

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:56 pm
by JamesChapman23
The medians are being built on like 30 percent response rates- so the median is generally the top end of the class. The fact that you haven't researched this means you havent even done basic, basic due diligence.

See the grey?
--LinkRemoved--

They are non respondents to salary data. Then go to advanced, to find only 50 percent of the class got full-time jobs that require BAR licenses (includes doc review, solos, entry level small law, insurance defense, big firm). Half the class couldnt even get garbage small law or doc review. Think about that.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:02 pm
by Incubateus
As I said, "There just isn't enough information", that's why I didn't put too much time into trying to break it down into a nuanced argument. And that NALP link includes every school. I've seen it before, but its worth obviously changes with what school you choose. The LSTrans link wouldn't open for me, but that last one I saw from them was slightly outdated. The newest one I've seen was a 57% response rate for salaries. That being said, "THERE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH INFORMATION".

So if you have gone there or are going there, please feel free to feed me some information.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:05 pm
by JoeMo
Incubateus wrote:As I said, "There just isn't enough information", that's why I didn't put too much time into trying to break it down into a nuanced argument. And that NALP link includes every school. I've seen it before, but its worth obviously changes with what school you choose. The LSTrans link wouldn't open for me, but that last one I saw from them was slightly outdated. The newest one I've seen was a 57% response rate for salaries. That being said, "THERE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH INFORMATION".

So if you have gone there or are going there, please feel free to feed me some information.


You're still stupid. And there at least is enough information to know that median grades =/= Median salary. Enjoy your future:

Image

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:05 pm
by JamesChapman23
Incubateus wrote:As I said, "There just isn't enough information", that's why I didn't put too much time into trying to break it down into a nuanced argument. And that NALP link includes every school. I've seen it before, but its worth obviously changes with what school you choose. The LSTrans link wouldn't open for me, but that last one I saw from them was slightly outdated. The newest one I've seen was a 57% response rate for salaries. That being said, "THERE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH INFORMATION".

So if you have gone there or are going there, please feel free to feed me some information.


Go to the TLS site.
Click George Mason
Go to advanced tab.
Look at the complete lack of lawyer jobs.

Or just drop 150k and ignore the research. Whatever.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:05 pm
by flem
Incubateus wrote:As I said, "There just isn't enough information", that's why I didn't put too much time into trying to break it down into a nuanced argument. And that NALP link includes every school. I've seen it before, but its worth obviously changes with what school you choose. The LSTrans link wouldn't open for me, but that last one I saw from them was slightly outdated. The newest one I've seen was a 57% response rate for salaries. That being said, "THERE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH INFORMATION".

So if you have gone there or are going there, please feel free to feed me some information.


If I remember correctly (and I do!) you cited salary statistics to support your decision.

Assume the worst. People didn't respond because they're unemployed or working non-legal jobs that pay them terribly. Do you think they had low response rates because they were all too busy counting their money?

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:11 pm
by Lwoods
Incubateus wrote:...
If you've actually gone out and worked another job (not in the "let's burn a few years before law school", but in the "this is my lifelong career" mindset) you will quickly understand that even with debt and limited opportunities, the right or wrong career choice can be a far greater burden to bear.
...


You can't dismiss opinions assuming our situations. I worked for 5 years prior to law school and had no intent to apply to attend law school when I graduated from undergrad. When you're a person who loves working (like I do), you want a career that is satisfying. For me, that means challenging and interesting, which law is for me. It could mean different things to different people, but I understand your desire to practice law independent of salary.

That said, you'll still want to be able to get the opportunities to build your career. A T14 will best provide that. A T1 with significant scholarship would also be good. The scholarship part matters because the smaller your debt load, the less important it will be to make a high salary.

If you really want DC and wouldn't be happy in Ohio, you'll be better off getting your LSAT up to the level that would allow you to receive a generous scholarship from a higher ranked DC-area law school. One more year, even if you're older, will be worth it if you can get better options. If you'd be happy in Ohio, come to OSU. I like it so much better than I thought I would and would be happy to address any of your questions/concerns.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:31 pm
by ScrabbleChamp
Incubateus wrote:As I said, "There just isn't enough information", that's why I didn't put too much time into trying to break it down into a nuanced argument. And that NALP link includes every school. I've seen it before, but its worth obviously changes with what school you choose. The LSTrans link wouldn't open for me, but that last one I saw from them was slightly outdated. The newest one I've seen was a 57% response rate for salaries. That being said, "THERE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH INFORMATION".

So if you have gone there or are going there, please feel free to feed me some information.


If you are looking for people that have gone to the school, you'd have better luck poking around in the unemployment office than on this site.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:52 pm
by JoeMo
Lwoods wrote:
Incubateus wrote:...
If you've actually gone out and worked another job (not in the "let's burn a few years before law school", but in the "this is my lifelong career" mindset) you will quickly understand that even with debt and limited opportunities, the right or wrong career choice can be a far greater burden to bear.
...


You can't dismiss opinions assuming our situations. I worked for 5 years prior to law school and had no intent to apply to attend law school when I graduated from undergrad. When you're a person who loves working (like I do), you want a career that is satisfying. For me, that means challenging and interesting, which law is for me. It could mean different things to different people, but I understand your desire to practice law independent of salary.

That said, you'll still want to be able to get the opportunities to build your career. A T14 will best provide that. A T1 with significant scholarship would also be good. The scholarship part matters because the smaller your debt load, the less important it will be to make a high salary.

If you really want DC and wouldn't be happy in Ohio, you'll be better off getting your LSAT up to the level that would allow you to receive a generous scholarship from a higher ranked DC-area law school. One more year, even if you're older, will be worth it if you can get better options. If you'd be happy in Ohio, come to OSU. I like it so much better than I thought I would and would be happy to address any of your questions/concerns.


Yeah, OP is just butt hurt. Although he/she/it said that "they didn't want the retake or don't go" response they intrinsically knew that was the correct response. However, they thought they'd be the one person that would be able to get the "pay sticker (or close to it) at GMU" response they were so looking for.

When they got what they knew they would get all along we got the "you're a douche (sent to me via PM)" or "your life must be different than mine because I's a special snowflake" response.

And then they got the "UNEMPLOYMENT" comment.

So, on that note...
/thread

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:56 pm
by Incubateus
I'm pretty sure that the full Pm read something like this:

Do me a favor and stop responding with douche bag remarks, I'm actually trying to get information from people who have first hand experience with either school

Thanks

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:01 pm
by JoeMo
Incubateus wrote:I'm pretty sure that the full Pm read something like this:

Do me a favor and stop responding with douche bag remarks, I'm actually trying to get information from people who have first hand experience with either school

Thanks


Yeah, so you called me a douche, which admittedly I was being but also admittedly you're being a hot-headed a-hole that is pulling justifications out of thin air. i.e. Median grades = median salary. Which really signify to the rest of us that you haven't done your due diligence. You also think that GMU is going to place you in DC because you'll be there. But FYI, American, Catholic et. al. tell you the same thing (oh but you'll be here in the Fall/Spring when no one else will and by the way, others will. GW and GTown have ginormous classes including their PT programs and all those people are also in DC over the fall/spring). Literally, just about everyone in DC has a JD. Barrista JD, Waiter JD, Cap Hill job JD, Piercing Pagoda JD, Sunglass Hut JD. What makes you think you'll be the odd ball out?

And if you're so convinced that you'll be the odd one out and end up with median salary because your grades will be Median at GMU then why are you looking for validation on this board?

All we're trying to say is DO YOUR RESEARCH and GET SOME SENSE. You're about to make a horrible mistake. One that you can fix preemptively. And not taking this advice would make you stoopid.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:01 pm
by flem
Dude, it's obvious you want people to validate your decision. No one is going to. Go if you want to, but you're not allowed to plead ignorance if you get boned on the other end.

Good luck.

Re: OSU v. George Mason

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:02 pm
by TatteredDignity
OP, you should read this post because I'm not just "trolling" you.

Why is it that you are willing to sacrifice money and prestige to get the kind of career you want, but you aren't willing to "burn a year of your life," as you put it earlier in this thread? If you know/think you'd be happy doing antitrust for a big DC firm, why aren't you willing to spend an extra year to attain that goal? Because, "there isn't enough information" aside, your chances of that path coming from either of these schools is basically non-existent.