OSU v. George Mason

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?

OSU
17
71%
GMU
7
29%
 
Total votes: 24

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romothesavior
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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:51 am

JamesChapman23 wrote:Without local ties, Ohio is going to be a bad time.

All of these options are likely a bad time.

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:55 am

I go to Case and was quoted above, so I'll be repeating myself...Case is fine with enough money or as your best/only Ohio/Cleveland option, but given basically equal costs, you should probably take OSU. I only turned them down because of local market ties/preference and a very significant cost difference, which is rarely the case because of OSU offering in-state 2L/3L. Case was far cheaper for me and I wanted to live in Cleveland. But OCI at OSU is way better, and name recognition to a layperson is 100x better. You have connections, so that might make attending a lower-ranked school a more realistic proposition, but not at the same price. With no Ohio ties and a focus on DC, well, DC is the most competitive legal market in the country - attending GMU at sticker doesn't guarantee you anything there. OSU is your safest choice.

OSU scholarships don't have strict stips, do they? I don't recall. That's the only real cost advantage for Case. Are you taking into account in-state for 2L/3L in your COA? Honestly, if Case and OSU come out the same, tell Case and see what they say. If they have money leftover, they'll probably try to buy you, but I'm not sure at this point it's going to make enough of a difference.

As for Ohio being oversaturated - yes. The number of Ohio law schools is too damn high. Class size is falling at most of them, but that's only a projection and doesn't even necessarily imply a better market for the Class of 2015. That said...most people I know have summer jobs, including myself. Some super impressive, other gap-fillers. As far as Case goes, we place 50% in Ohio and 50% out (varies by year), so you aren't absolutely tied here...but it's the primary market, and even in Cleveland you have to deal with OSU and Cleveland State.

Also, what's with Pitt people not wanting to go to Pitt? Case is basically the same rank, but you didn't even list Pitt. This is the second thread I've seen like that.

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby lifestooquick » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:00 am

OSU stipulation for scholarships is a 2.5 GPA. I'm pretty sure Case requires a 3.15 right? At least they did when they offered me a scholly.

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby Incubateus » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:40 am

bk1 wrote:None of the above. They don't place in places you want to be. They cost too much. Their employment prospects are either mediocre or just bad.

Whether or not you're willing to listen, you should retake whether you want to or not.


I'm pretty sure I established that I wasn't willing to listen so please stop wasting my time and yours.

buckilaw wrote:
Incubateus wrote:Not many ties to Ohio, a few though. If, for whatever reason, I struck out in Ohio, the degree would carry the same weight as Pitt in Pittsburgh.

Pitt: 28k/yr in state - 12k scholarship + 18k COL = 34 (*3) = 102k

Case: 42k/yr - 27k scholarship + 18k COL = 33 (*3) = 99k


If you don't have ties to Ohio don't expect to get a job in Ohio. Firms are VERY hesitant to hire anyone right now and if a job comes down to you vs. someone who has family + friends in Ohio you'll be at a disadvantage.

The legal market is truly terrible in Ohio, there are MAYBE around 50 entry level positions with firms. The only firm that would allow you to do antitrust - that I can think of - is Jones Day, Jones Day will be sought after by every law grad in Ohio...

TL;DR Retake, reapply for a school that will give you a better shot of getting a firm job where you can do antitrust.


I'm not only interested in Antitrust. I would be fine working in many other areas and I have prepped myself for that. As I've heard from many lawyers, "the days of specializing (as a lawyer) are pretty much over."

flem wrote:
Incubateus wrote:If money was of no concern, I would go to Mason. I really like the atmosphere, the professors, the econ & law focus, etc. I would love to end up in DC and I want to go into antitrust (I also have ties to DC). That being said, they have yet to help me out financially. I spoke with Dean Price and she said she would try to help me, but as of right now I would be paying sticker. Practicing in Ohio would be ok, and from either OSU or Case I could end up working in Pittsburgh (where I live now).

COA's:
OSU = ~110k
Case = ~100k
GMU = ~180k

I'm not looking for a response of "retake", "don't go", or "you'll end up with no job," so please don't troll. If you have something to share about these schools and an opinion of where you would go, I'd love to hear it. Thanks all.


Your cost of attendance is off.

Assuming Stafford/Grad PLUS loans averaging out at a 7.5% APR that accrues the second you take out loans and compounds, it looks like this:

OSU: ~129K
Case: ~119K
GMU: ~209K

When a likely outcome of these schools is a 50-60K job, that's really expensive. The cheapest scenario (Case) would require you to be paying back roughly $1200 a month in loan payments if you want to pay it off in a timely fashion. That's $14,400 a year.

Taking the 60K/year number, subtract $12,000 a year in taxes/Medicare/SS deductions. Then subtract $14,400 in loan payments. Your take home pay, after all this, is $33,600. That blows.

Think very, very carefully how badly you want to be a lawyer. Are you willing to work 60-70 hour weeks for 33K a year? I'm not. It's not like the lower paying jobs mean you work less hours. You work the same shitty biglaw hours for less money.

And you're thinking about going to Ohio, a rustbelt state with a shitty economy, without ties? A 60K/year job would be a GREAT outcome for you. Getting boned is more likely.

I'm not some JDU or T14/don't go troll, but you need to look at the total cost of attendance and the likely outcome - the big picture. I've got a friend who just graduated law school and her entire class is fighting over jobs that pay 45K with no benefits, to start. It's not like there's room for advancement in that scenario either. It's rough out there. Retake and go somewhere with really good employment options, or retake and go to these same schools for free.

Good luck.


1. Thanks for calculating that, but I have savings and other certain factors that will influence my overall debt load rather significantly.
2. I am willing to work those hours for that pay.
3. The whole rustbelt idea has fallen apart over the past ten years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U. ... yment_rate
4. I'm not burning another year of my life playing the law school admissions game. Money can be payed back, time cannot.
lifestooquick wrote:I go to OSU.

Your real choice here is OSU v. Mason. If OSU is an option, CWRU is out - OSU is the better school. And cheaper. You can get in-state for 2L and 3L at OSU.

Yes, Pitt will be an option from OSU. We have employers from Pitt and West Virginia at OCI.


These comments have made me realize it is OSU v. Mason. I will change the poll accordingly.


Scholarship Stipulations:
Case: 2.33
OSU: 2.0

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lifestooquick
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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby lifestooquick » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:45 am

So I'm at OSU trying to get to DC in my future. We have a DC summer program run by a professor with amazing DC contacts (I'm working at the DOJ this summer). We have multiple faculty with Hill experience and contacts. Obviously, it's hard...but it may be possible if you network your butt off. I can tell you that the General Counsel of the Department of Education is a Moritz alum and there are definitely more working on the Hill.

Not sure of your political convictions, but I can say that Mason was not an option for me at all because they have a reputation for being very politically conservative. Just something to think about.

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby flem » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:47 am

Incubateus wrote:
1. Thanks for calculating that, but I have savings and other certain factors that will influence my overall debt load rather significantly.
2. I am willing to work those hours for that pay.
3. The whole rustbelt idea has fallen apart over the past ten years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U. ... yment_rate
4. I'm not burning another year of my life playing the law school admissions game. Money can be payed back, time cannot.


1) You're welcome, and for your sake I hope those other factors are significant.
2) More power to you, seriously. I wouldn't. You must really want to be a lawyer. But my point is, you don't really have to.
3) That doesn't mean that the legal market there is good.
4) How old are you? You're not willing to retake/reapply for literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in future earnings? Or, at least larger scholarships? If I told you if you retook and reapplied with a higher LSAT score I'd pay you $50,000 to wait a year? Of course you would. Think of it that way. A year off and a better score opens up better opens and these schools at better prices, if not better prices at even better schools.

So often we get caught up in the "I can't wait a year" sentiment. You'll never regret waiting a year to go to a much better school and/or take on less debt.

Also, George Mason should be out of consideration entirely. It's way too expensive for the likely outcome. Paying back 130K on 60K a year sucks, paying back 210K on that is downright crippling.

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby flem » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:48 am

lifestooquick wrote:So I'm at OSU trying to get to DC in my future. We have a DC summer program run by a professor with amazing DC contacts (I'm working at the DOJ this summer). We have multiple faculty with Hill experience and contacts. Obviously, it's hard...but it may be possible if you network your butt off. I can tell you that the General Counsel of the Department of Education is a Moritz alum and there are definitely more working on the Hill.

Not sure of your political convictions, but I can say that Mason was not an option for me at all because they have a reputation for being very politically conservative. Just something to think about.


Class rank? Your options are very different at top 10% v. median v. bottom third.

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby Incubateus » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:55 am

lifestooquick wrote:So I'm at OSU trying to get to DC in my future. We have a DC summer program run by a professor with amazing DC contacts (I'm working at the DOJ this summer). We have multiple faculty with Hill experience and contacts. Obviously, it's hard...but it may be possible if you network your butt off. I can tell you that the General Counsel of the Department of Education is a Moritz alum and there are definitely more working on the Hill.

Not sure of your political convictions, but I can say that Mason was not an option for me at all because they have a reputation for being very politically conservative. Just something to think about.


My concern about OSU > DC is that OSU only places 5 or 6% into that market. When I spoke with the one career counselor at OSU she told me that much of that is self-selection. But if you have more about your experience with everything so far please share (or PM me). Thanks.

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby Lwoods » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:58 am

lifestooquick wrote:OSU stipulation for scholarships is a 2.5 GPA. I'm pretty sure Case requires a 3.15 right? At least they did when they offered me a scholly.


Yeah, OSU stips are 2.0/2.5 depending on the type. ...And getting a 2.5 or lower would require being in the bottom 10% for over half your classes. Pretty safe to keep, and if you can't, it'd be wise to reevaluate your decision to attend law school.

I'm only a 1L, but I definitely know 2Ls without OH ties who have firm jobs in-state lined up. In fact, two of my good 1L friends with no midwest ties have great (may lead to full-time employment) 1L summer gigs in town lined up.

DC is tough for everyone. OSU has the DC summer program and helps students secure impressive positions there (see last year's list here). OSU then participates in the Law School Consortium with peer schools, allowing students the opportunity to interview in DC...but I don't know of anyone who got offers from that. Interviews, yes, but no offers.

My concern with GMU, though, would be the over satuation of DC. Yes, you'd be there, but along with Georgetown, UVA, GWU, etc. Plus it's really not that big of a town, and I get the impression firms have really cut back there. At least with OSU, you're the main game in town, as well as the best in the state. Combined with the increased cost of going to GMU, OSU seems the wiser choice. Unless you have no desire to work here at all, because you can't come to OSU if you're not open to the idea of working in Ohio.

Ultimately, none of these options will really be a good idea for a DC job that will pay of your loans for the schools. If you really want DC, retake and go to UVA/Georgetown or any other T14. Or try to get a full-ride from GWU.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:03 pm

I'm not burning another year of my life playing the law school admissions game. Money can be payed back, time cannot.

:|

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby Incubateus » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:04 pm

flem wrote:
Incubateus wrote:
1. Thanks for calculating that, but I have savings and other certain factors that will influence my overall debt load rather significantly.
2. I am willing to work those hours for that pay.
3. The whole rustbelt idea has fallen apart over the past ten years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U. ... yment_rate
4. I'm not burning another year of my life playing the law school admissions game. Money can be payed back, time cannot.


1) You're welcome, and for your sake I hope those other factors are significant.
2) More power to you, seriously. I wouldn't. You must really want to be a lawyer. But my point is, you don't really have to.
3) That doesn't mean that the legal market there is good.
4) How old are you? You're not willing to retake/reapply for literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in future earnings? Or, at least larger scholarships? If I told you if you retook and reapplied with a higher LSAT score I'd pay you $50,000 to wait a year? Of course you would. Think of it that way. A year off and a better score opens up better opens and these schools at better prices, if not better prices at even better schools.

So often we get caught up in the "I can't wait a year" sentiment. You'll never regret waiting a year to go to a much better school and/or take on less debt.

Also, George Mason should be out of consideration entirely. It's way too expensive for the likely outcome. Paying back 130K on 60K a year sucks, paying back 210K on that is downright crippling.


If you told me that you'd pay me 50k for a year of waiting, it would be a no brainer. I wouldn't burn a year of my life for what, over the course of a lifetime, is nothing. When I spoke to one lawyer from my area he made two good points, both of which are excellent reasons for me to consider GMU. He told me that essentially, I am choosing two different lives; would I like to work a regular law career in Ohio or would I rather work in a city that houses opportunities like capitol hill, major federal government agencies, some of the largest companies in the US, etc. The other point he made was that the difference in cost (70k) over the course of a lifetime is nothing. It's two cars.

And as to my age, I'm old enough to choose the job that I enjoy over the job that pays more.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:08 pm

Yeah, GMU is the fast track to big fed, exciting corporate work, and working with the bigshots in the Hill.

Forget those two cars; you should get a boat for your beachfront condo in Arizona.

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby flem » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:12 pm

Incubateus wrote:
If you told me that you'd pay me 50k for a year of waiting, it would be a no brainer. I wouldn't burn a year of my life for what, over the course of a lifetime, is nothing. When I spoke to one lawyer from my area he made two good points, both of which are excellent reasons for me to consider GMU. He told me that essentially, I am choosing two different lives; would I like to work a regular law career in Ohio or would I rather work in a city that houses opportunities like capitol hill, major federal government agencies, some of the largest companies in the US, etc. The other point he made was that the difference in cost (70k) over the course of a lifetime is nothing. It's two cars.

And as to my age, I'm old enough to choose the job that I enjoy over the job that pays more.


But you'd get 50K knocked off your cost of attendance if you retook and reapplied to these same schools, so what's the difference? And over the course of a lifetime, waiting a year isn't a big deal either. Especially when your future earning power would be so much higher.

GMU is a regional school in literally the most competitive market in the country. T14 grads flock there. You're going to be left competing with George Washington and American kids for scraps. And they're ahead of the pecking order of GMU.

And RE: your age, that didn't answer my question. Are you 30? Are you 22? Makes a big difference man. Take it from someone who is 25 and retaking and reapplying for better options.

Edit: also, take most advice practicing attorneys give with a grain of salt. Most didn't graduate in this economy, and many would tell you that going to some random TTT is a good investment because it worked out for them. If they're not involved in hiring, they're very out of touch with the current market for new grads.

romothesavior wrote:Yeah, GMU is the fast track to big fed, exciting corporate work, and working with the bigshots in the Hill.

Forget those two cars; you should get a boat for your beachfront condo in Arizona.


i lol'd

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby Incubateus » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:14 pm

Lwoods wrote:
lifestooquick wrote:OSU stipulation for scholarships is a 2.5 GPA. I'm pretty sure Case requires a 3.15 right? At least they did when they offered me a scholly.


My concern with GMU, though, would be the over satuation of DC. Yes, you'd be there, but along with Georgetown, UVA, GWU, etc. Plus it's really not that big of a town, and I get the impression firms have really cut back there. At least with OSU, you're the main game in town, as well as the best in the state. Combined with the increased cost of going to GMU, OSU seems the wiser choice. Unless you have no desire to work here at all, because you can't come to OSU if you're not open to the idea of working in Ohio.

Ultimately, none of these options will really be a good idea for a DC job that will pay of your loans for the schools. If you really want DC, retake and go to UVA/Georgetown or any other T14. Or try to get a full-ride from GWU.


I did keep that in mind, but when I visited a few things logically fell into place that sort of debunk that issue. They said that a lot of students worry about the saturation of the market. But most law students are only here for the summer opportunities. And when those students leave, the fall and the spring still have a similar vacuum of vacancies to be filled. GMU comes in by allowing up to 3 semesters (12 credits) of externships to get students into those spots. Which makes sense considering that when people define the atmosphere of the law school, they almost always include something about the "commuter-ish" feel or that "everyone seems to have a job that they work 20 hours/week". Additionally, I have only heard excellent things about the career services office. So, FWIW, that is the reason I'm not worried about the over-saturation. Now, if I end up in the bottom half of the class, things could become a bit harder to figure out, but that is something that I would have to deal with pretty much anywhere.

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Re: OSU v. Case v. George Mason

Postby flem » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:17 pm

Incubateus wrote:
I did keep that in mind, but when I visited a few things logically fell into place that sort of debunk that issue. They said that a lot of students worry about the saturation of the market. But most law students are only here for the summer opportunities. And when those students leave, the fall and the spring still have a similar vacuum of vacancies to be filled. GMU comes in by allowing up to 3 semesters (12 credits) of externships to get students into those spots. Which makes sense considering that when people define the atmosphere of the law school, they almost always include something about the "commuter-ish" feel or that "everyone seems to have a job that they work 20 hours/week". Additionally, I have only heard excellent things about the career services office. So, FWIW, that is the reason I'm not worried about the over-saturation. Now, if I end up in the bottom half of the class, things could become a bit harder to figure out, but that is something that I would have to deal with pretty much anywhere.


They sold you on the school. Of course they did. What incentive could they have for doing so?

Also, career services offices, according to conventional wisdom, are by and large worthless. At a school outside of the T20 you're going to have to hustle your face off to land jobs.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:27 pm

Umm, hi. Summer opportunities = full time opportunities. Its not like these T14 people are coming in, doing the whole "Williams and Connolly" thing for some sweet summer learning experience. They are taking your jobs, and they're taking the bulk of them. Ain't gonna be much left for you GMU guys after everyone else is through. You'll be fighting for table scraps, and table scraps don't pay the bills too well on 200k in student loans.

That's great you can get some externship experience, but the feds aren't hiring a spring intern from GMU when they have Harvard kids kicking down the door, and working for $15 an hour at the Law Office of Seymore Butts, Esq. isn't gonna get you anywhere.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby flem » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:30 pm

romothesavior wrote:Umm, hi. Summer opportunities = full time opportunities. Its not like these T14 people are coming in, doing the whole "Williams and Connolly" thing for some sweet summer learning experience. They are taking your jobs, and they're taking the bulk of them. Ain't gonna be much left for you GMU guys after everyone else is through. You'll be fighting for table scraps, and table scraps don't pay the bills too well on 200k in student loans.


60K/year jerb with 210K in loans on a 10 year repayment schedule would leave you with $24,000 take home pay after taxes.

Or go on IBR and watch your debt balloon.

Both are abjectly terrible options.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:32 pm

flem wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Umm, hi. Summer opportunities = full time opportunities. Its not like these T14 people are coming in, doing the whole "Williams and Connolly" thing for some sweet summer learning experience. They are taking your jobs, and they're taking the bulk of them. Ain't gonna be much left for you GMU guys after everyone else is through. You'll be fighting for table scraps, and table scraps don't pay the bills too well on 200k in student loans.


60K/year jerb with 210K in loans on a 10 year repayment schedule would leave you with $24,000 take home pay after taxes.

Or go on IBR and watch your debt balloon.

Both are abjectly terrible options.

24k isn't bad. That's like a car.

Too bad it would also be your house.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby dissonance1848 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:37 pm

OP seems convinced he should jump off the cliff. No reason to try to stop him.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby Incubateus » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:43 pm

Have either of you held jobs before? For how long? a whole year?

You both also seems to think that it's 60k for the rest of your life. No bonuses, ever. No raises. Nice reality.
and 10 year repayments aren't the only way to unload debt. And I have lived on 25k per year, in a job that worked me 60-70 hrs/wk. It wasn't the clinical depression that your friends had trouble with.

My goal here is to bicker and bitch with a bunch of end-game, cock-measuring-competition mindsets. I would actually like to find out about both schools, from people who have gone there, or are going there. Thanks guys.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:44 pm

Im not a math expert, but you'd have to make ~$100,000 to keep your debt from increasing if it is $200,000 using IBR, correct?

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby Incubateus » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm

You might want to restate that for clarity, but from how I understand it, it is false.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby dissonance1848 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm

Hate to break it to you, but the legal market ain't that hot. A large number of law school graduates don't find legal jobs (full time or part time doc review gigs), and end up taking a non-legal job to pay the bills. For those who do find legal work, most of them are struggling to make ends meet and pay the bills with 100k and higher debt loads on incomes of 40-60k.

This has nothing to do with picking a fight. If I tell you 1+1=2, and give you the proof, are you going to say no, and pronounce that 1+1=3?

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby flem » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:50 pm

Incubateus wrote:Have either of you held jobs before? For how long? a whole year?

You both also seems to think that it's 60k for the rest of your life. No bonuses, ever. No raises. Nice reality.
and 10 year repayments aren't the only way to unload debt. And I have lived on 25k per year, in a job that worked me 60-70 hrs/wk. It wasn't the clinical depression that your friends had trouble with.

My goal here is to bicker and bitch with a bunch of end-game, cock-measuring-competition mindsets. I would actually like to find out about both schools, from people who have gone there, or are going there. Thanks guys.


I work for a biglaw firm currently as I'm retaking/reapplying and I can tell you I don't know everything but I know a lot, and most of this stuff is common sense. I've learned a ton by working here and it's changed my mindset on the whole process.

It's not necessarily for the rest of your life, but there are plenty of jobs that pay you 40-60K that make you literally unemployable that you might have to take to make loan payments. Insurance defense, doc review, etc. If you get stuck doing that shit, you'll be doing it for life. (edit, scooped above) Yes, there are small firm jobs where you can be on partner track and do pretty well on a much lower salary (100Kish) than you would in biglaw. But those are going to go to grads with ties to the region and a compelling reason for being there. Attending school in that region, contrary to popular belief, is not a compelling reason to employers.

Sure you could live on 25K, but you don't have to. Why would you? Because you want to go right now? And of course there are other ways to pay down debt of that magnitude, but not without paying thousands upon thousands of more dollars just in interest than you have to.

Have you worked in a firm before? Do you know what lawyers actually do? It can be soul crushing, boring work. Doing it for peanuts would just add insult to injury.

You seem to have your mind made up and are unwilling to listen to the reality of the situation. I'm not one for hyperbole, but going to schools in a region where you're not from which only places in either a secondary or competitive market is a terrible, awful idea.

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Re: OSU v. George Mason

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:53 pm

Incubateus wrote:You might want to restate that for clarity, but from how I understand it, it is false.

Yeah there's a reason I'm a law student and not an actuary. I'm not sure what interest rate they'll be charging in the next few years on student loans and I think the figure I used was high. Might be closer to 80-100k, but either way IBR just creates a ticking timebomb of debt if you have a lot of it and a low paying job.




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