Rubenstein vs. HLS

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Rubenstein or HLS (sticker)

Rubenstein
137
83%
HLS
28
17%
 
Total votes: 165

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Dany
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby Dany » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:17 pm

Congrats on the wise decision, OP! Since you haven't visited, feel free to PM me or post here if you have any questions about the school or the area.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby Tom Joad » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:20 pm

Congrats, from the members of the Held at Harvard thread.

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rayiner
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:24 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:
kaiser wrote:
bdubs wrote:There might be a really limited number of reasons to choose Harvard even facing a substantial cost difference, but I don't think you've mentioned anything that would suggest that you fit into one of those narrow exceptions. Take the money and don't look back.


Honestly, if someone had one of those narrow niche aspirations that would make Harvard the "better" choice, my advice would be pretty simple: change your damn aspirations and take the $$.


I disagree. HLS is like playing for the Lakers, Red Wings, or Yankees for some people. Chicago is like the Spurs, Sharks, or Cardinals-- lay people might not know they exist. Plus, HLS will allow the OP to have a swinging chance at some amazing upper-end opportunities without having to bootstrap.

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rayiner
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:26 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


Lack of debt aversion and wanting to be able to check the "legacy" box for your kids' Harvard applications.

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rayiner
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:28 pm

courtneylove wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


I don't have a Rubenstein but I came into UChicago with a big scholarship, and I regret leaving the east coast every single day. I don't like any of the students here and really fucking hate Hyde Park, Chicago, and pretty much all of Illinois in general. I'd take my chances paying sticker at Harvard over throwing away three years of my twenties in this hellhole.


Hyde Park sucks. Come up to the Northside. :lol:

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sunynp
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby sunynp » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:42 pm

rayiner wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


Lack of debt aversion and wanting to be able to check the "legacy" box for your kids' Harvard applications.


My kids are going to be just as debt averse as me. So getting in Harvard as a legacy won't matter. If they can get in on their merit and get scholarships, that is their deal.

Besides I know legacies who the pressure to go to Harvard made them crazy pretty much from 1st grade all the way through high school. Everything they did, every instrument they played, every extra-curricular, their entire life was calculated for maximum impact on their resume. Every potential friend's family was carefully assessed for social status. Not joking. Some of them were cool with it, some not so much. Just saying a legacy isn't always the gift it might seem to be to people who wish they had it.

Also I would be happy if my kids never go to law school. My faith in the future of this profession is low.

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby kaiser » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:44 pm

rayiner wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


Lack of debt aversion and wanting to be able to check the "legacy" box for your kids' Harvard applications.


Otherwise known as fiscal irresponsibility and an unhealthy obsession with prestige

EdgarWinter
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby EdgarWinter » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:49 pm

.
Last edited by EdgarWinter on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:50 pm

rayiner wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


Lack of debt aversion and wanting to be able to check the "legacy" box for your kids' Harvard applications.


Realizing that Harvard almost certainly doesn't add ($200k + interest) to a person's lifetime earning potential isn't being "debt averse," it's being "pro-math." That debt forces you to put off home-ownership (or incur even greater interest expense), forces you to keep a biglaw job for longer (which, as I'm learning the hard way, can really come into conflict with, for example, a spouse's career goals), etc.

Now, if you want to argue that the potentially more lucrative exit options provided by Harvard makes it a sound financial decision, OK, but I don't see how one makes effectively makes that argument. If you see yourself wanting to go into politics (lol), then Harvard probably does have extra cachet to it. But for bigfed, PI, etc., Harvard isn't going to open a lot of doors that Chicago and Columbia leave closed, and the biglaw difference is completely negligible. Harvard does make the path to SCOTUS clerk "easier"--but is "an incredibly small chance" vs. "a ridiculously small chance" really worth $200k?

I can see the point of the legacy admit checkbox, I guess. Hard to quantify how much that's worth.
Last edited by ToTransferOrNot on Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

kaiser
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby kaiser » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:54 pm

EdgarWinter wrote:I think OP definitely made the right choice, but I am surprised at the results of the poll. Most of the other Hamilton/Rubenstein/(huge scholarship here) vs HYS polls that I've seen from past cycles were much more evenly split or even favored HYS. Why the sudden change? Bad economy/press about the reality of student loans finally getting to people? Would folks have changed their votes if it had been Ruby vs holyshi-Yale?


Because the 0L's took a break from the forums today

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thelawyler
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby thelawyler » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:54 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
thelawyler wrote:Call them up and tell Chicago that you are super interested, but you can't bring yourself to make a decision without ever visiting. So ask if they are willing to foot a trip to visit for you ;)

I hate it when people give advice without reading threads.


lol u mad?

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NinerFan
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby NinerFan » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:59 pm

rayiner wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:
kaiser wrote:
bdubs wrote:There might be a really limited number of reasons to choose Harvard even facing a substantial cost difference, but I don't think you've mentioned anything that would suggest that you fit into one of those narrow exceptions. Take the money and don't look back.


Honestly, if someone had one of those narrow niche aspirations that would make Harvard the "better" choice, my advice would be pretty simple: change your damn aspirations and take the $$.


I disagree. HLS is like playing for the Lakers, Red Wings, or Yankees for some people. Chicago is like the Spurs, Sharks, or Cardinals-- lay people might not know they exist. Plus, HLS will allow the OP to have a swinging chance at some amazing upper-end opportunities without having to bootstrap.


Lay prestige is cool and all, but you're likely not going to be a lawyer for someone who knows that Harvard is good but isn't sure what the deal is with this University of Chicago or NYU or Columbia place. I know it has benefits for say, impressing your SO's parents, impressing your parents, etc. Not worth full scholarship + stipend to me.

EdgarWinter
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby EdgarWinter » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:01 am

I'm pretty sure OP's parents at least will be pretty thrilled about $170,000+.

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rayiner
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:05 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


Lack of debt aversion and wanting to be able to check the "legacy" box for your kids' Harvard applications.


Realizing that Harvard almost certainly doesn't add ($240k + interest) to a person's lifetime earning potential isn't being "debt averse," it's being "pro-math." That debt forces you to put off home-ownership (or incur even greater interest expense), forces you to keep a biglaw job for longer (which, as I'm learning the hard way, can really come into conflict with, for example, a spouse's career goals), etc.

Now, if you want to argue that the potentially more lucrative exit options provided by Harvard makes it a sound financial decision, OK, but I don't see how one makes effectively makes that argument. If you see yourself wanting to go into politics (lol), then Harvard probably does have extra cachet to it. But for bigfed, PI, etc., Harvard isn't going to open a lot of doors that Chicago and Columbia leave closed.

I can see the point of the legacy admit checkbox, I guess. Hard to quantify how much that's worth.


I think in Big Fed there is still something to the Harvard thing. There are a disproportionate number of HLS-ers running around Washington in high-ranking positions. It's not just the name, it's the self-perpetuating Harvard alumni network. But that's where the risk tolerance comes in--how much are you willing to pay for a prospect that has a 1% chance of happening?

As for the intangible value, that's wholly dependent on your internal priorities. I don't think OP would be irrational taking Harvard over Chicago. People spend a lot of money on things of intangible value. My dad paid out of pocket to send my brother to Yale (UG), over substantial scholarship at very good schools. That's not money he could just throw around, but he was born in a village in a poor country and being being able to do that was a personal achievement for him. I hope to be able to do the same for my kids one day, because at the end of the day I'd value that more than a lake house or whatever else I'd spend the money on.

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sunynp
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby sunynp » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:24 am

rayiner wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


Lack of debt aversion and wanting to be able to check the "legacy" box for your kids' Harvard applications.


Realizing that Harvard almost certainly doesn't add ($240k + interest) to a person's lifetime earning potential isn't being "debt averse," it's being "pro-math." That debt forces you to put off home-ownership (or incur even greater interest expense), forces you to keep a biglaw job for longer (which, as I'm learning the hard way, can really come into conflict with, for example, a spouse's career goals), etc.

Now, if you want to argue that the potentially more lucrative exit options provided by Harvard makes it a sound financial decision, OK, but I don't see how one makes effectively makes that argument. If you see yourself wanting to go into politics (lol), then Harvard probably does have extra cachet to it. But for bigfed, PI, etc., Harvard isn't going to open a lot of doors that Chicago and Columbia leave closed.

I can see the point of the legacy admit checkbox, I guess. Hard to quantify how much that's worth.


I think in Big Fed there is still something to the Harvard thing. There are a disproportionate number of HLS-ers running around Washington in high-ranking positions. It's not just the name, it's the self-perpetuating Harvard alumni network. But that's where the risk tolerance comes in--how much are you willing to pay for a prospect that has a 1% chance of happening?

As for the intangible value, that's wholly dependent on your internal priorities. I don't think OP would be irrational taking Harvard over Chicago. People spend a lot of money on things of intangible value. My dad paid out of pocket to send my brother to Yale (UG), over substantial scholarship at very good schools. That's not money he could just throw around, but he was born in a village in a poor country and being being able to do that was a personal achievement for him. I hope to be able to do the same for my kids one day, because at the end of the day I'd value that more than a lake house or whatever else I'd spend the money on.

I don't think the perceived intangible between Chicago and Harvard are meaningful for just about any job that OP might want to pursue. I'm certain that it isnt worth thousands of debt plus interest. But maybe m y perception is skewed because I have friends from both places that have great jobs. I don't know anyone who didn't get the job they wanted from either school - but that is anecdotal.

I do understand the value of the intangible, OP just basically got a free future not limited by taking jobs solely to repay loans. That is a bigger value intangible to me. The value of a named scholarship is an intangible too. There are a lot more Harvard students than there are Hamilton or Rubenstein people.

I am sure it is different if your parents can afford to just pay for either school. Still no prudent financial advisor is going to tell you to spend the money for Harvard when you can get Chicago for free. I am certain about that one.

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:46 am

rayiner wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


Lack of debt aversion and wanting to be able to check the "legacy" box for your kids' Harvard applications.


Realizing that Harvard almost certainly doesn't add ($240k + interest) to a person's lifetime earning potential isn't being "debt averse," it's being "pro-math." That debt forces you to put off home-ownership (or incur even greater interest expense), forces you to keep a biglaw job for longer (which, as I'm learning the hard way, can really come into conflict with, for example, a spouse's career goals), etc.

Now, if you want to argue that the potentially more lucrative exit options provided by Harvard makes it a sound financial decision, OK, but I don't see how one makes effectively makes that argument. If you see yourself wanting to go into politics (lol), then Harvard probably does have extra cachet to it. But for bigfed, PI, etc., Harvard isn't going to open a lot of doors that Chicago and Columbia leave closed.

I can see the point of the legacy admit checkbox, I guess. Hard to quantify how much that's worth.


I think in Big Fed there is still something to the Harvard thing. There are a disproportionate number of HLS-ers running around Washington in high-ranking positions. It's not just the name, it's the self-perpetuating Harvard alumni network. But that's where the risk tolerance comes in--how much are you willing to pay for a prospect that has a 1% chance of happening?

As for the intangible value, that's wholly dependent on your internal priorities. I don't think OP would be irrational taking Harvard over Chicago. People spend a lot of money on things of intangible value. My dad paid out of pocket to send my brother to Yale (UG), over substantial scholarship at very good schools. That's not money he could just throw around, but he was born in a village in a poor country and being being able to do that was a personal achievement for him. I hope to be able to do the same for my kids one day, because at the end of the day I'd value that more than a lake house or whatever else I'd spend the money on.


This is huge. People need to get off each others backs when making decisions within tiers. You only get to live once and 5 years of debt repayment could be really worth the Harvard experience for someone. I know a good group if people who took Chicago over HLS with similar money. They had pretty good reasons that they didn't really care about what HLS had to offer. However, I would say that if you don't care about the different brands, they will all get you to roughly the same place and $$ should be the primary concern (even with Yale).

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:40 am

TaipeiMort wrote:This is huge. People need to get off each others backs when making decisions within tiers. You only get to live once and 5 years of debt repayment could be really worth the Harvard experience for someone. I know a good group if people who took Chicago over HLS with similar money. They had pretty good reasons that they didn't really care about what HLS had to offer. However, I would say that if you don't care about the different brands, they will all get you to roughly the same place and $$ should be the primary concern (even with Yale).


If you don't care about the different brands and you're not working off a huge foreigner complex, and just want to make $$ in big law then you'd be a fool to turn down U Chicago for free. The lack of loans will let you actually live like you're making $160k and even save some money while you're at it.

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:31 am

rayiner wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:This is huge. People need to get off each others backs when making decisions within tiers. You only get to live once and 5 years of debt repayment could be really worth the Harvard experience for someone. I know a good group if people who took Chicago over HLS with similar money. They had pretty good reasons that they didn't really care about what HLS had to offer. However, I would say that if you don't care about the different brands, they will all get you to roughly the same place and $$ should be the primary concern (even with Yale).


If you don't care about the different brands and you're not working off a huge foreigner complex, and just want to make $$ in big law then you'd be a fool to turn down U Chicago for free. The lack of loans will let you actually live like you're making $160k and even save some money while you're at it.

Exactly. Your point is well taken, though, that these decisions are intensely personal at some level. Nobody else can value what going to Harvard (or living in NYC/Chicago/Bay Area/Texas for three years, etc. etc) is worth to any particular person. I do think though that there's a real tendency to overvalue prestige from an ex ante perspective. I don't go to Harvard, but from my experience in law school I imagine HLS students go from "I go to HARVARD LAW" to "Oh, so do 600 other people, and torts fucking sucks" pretty quickly. I don't think the extra prestige over CCN pays constant dividends in the way people may imagine. Though maybe in 15 years I'll be getting passed up for all the mid-career positions I want while HLS grads get hired instead and I'll change my tune, who knows.

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby justinp » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:47 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
rayiner wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:This is huge. People need to get off each others backs when making decisions within tiers. You only get to live once and 5 years of debt repayment could be really worth the Harvard experience for someone. I know a good group if people who took Chicago over HLS with similar money. They had pretty good reasons that they didn't really care about what HLS had to offer. However, I would say that if you don't care about the different brands, they will all get you to roughly the same place and $$ should be the primary concern (even with Yale).


If you don't care about the different brands and you're not working off a huge foreigner complex, and just want to make $$ in big law then you'd be a fool to turn down U Chicago for free. The lack of loans will let you actually live like you're making $160k and even save some money while you're at it.

Exactly. Your point is well taken, though, that these decisions are intensely personal at some level. Nobody else can value what going to Harvard (or living in NYC/Chicago/Bay Area/Texas for three years, etc. etc) is worth to any particular person. I do think though that there's a real tendency to overvalue prestige from an ex ante perspective. I don't go to Harvard, but from my experience in law school I imagine HLS students go from "I go to HARVARD LAW" to "Oh, so do 600 other people, and torts fucking sucks" pretty quickly. I don't think the extra prestige over CCN pays constant dividends in the way people may imagine. Though maybe in 15 years I'll be getting passed up for all the mid-career positions I want while HLS grads get hired instead and I'll change my tune, who knows.


Anecdotally, what I've heard from HLS/CLS grads who I've talked to (I've been on a fairly big cold-calling campaign b/c I'm in the HLS v. Hamilton camp) is that in NY/DC it doesn't matter much, but HLS grads in smaller markets say that they do perceive a real impact even years down the road, mainly because they feel like it really helps them bring in business for their firms (since a lot of big area company GC's and CEO's are impressed by the HLS degree) and in negotiations with opposing counsel and judges. I guess the issue is that there's a lot of dilution of the Harvard brand in NY/DC and other major East Coast cities--because everyone and their grandmother has a Harvard degree of some kind--so CLS isn't really at a disadvantage. But once you get to the South and West, the rarity of HLS grads increases pretty fast (though there is still a presence) and the degree's perceived value goes up. Again, *very* anecdotal, but thought it was interesting.

I think this is an issue that has been debated to death and really doesn't have a right answer. Really comes down to individual goals and risk-acceptance/risk-aversion.

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby soj » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Many 0Ls don't fully appreciate how seriously six-figure debt can hurt their standard of living. When you have no debt (or, realistically, much less debt), you can get a mortgage earlier, start saving for retirement earlier, start a family earlier, live like the lawyers you see on TV earlier, and give your SO greater flexibility to choose a less well-paid career if that's what your SO wants. And you can enjoy all of these benefits at precisely the time in your career when you're the least financially stable and extra money is the most helpful. And all of this is in the best-case scenario where you do well in school, get a great job, and enjoy a long, well-paying career. Keep in mind that going to HYS won't save you from getting laid off if you suck at your job or just plain get unlucky (e.g. downturn, boss doesn't like you for some reason).

In the worst-case scenario, it goes without saying that less debt is the better situation.

As for LRAP, it's nice, but not for everyone. Even at HYS, the majority of students end up in biglaw, and this includes many students who came into law school committed to PI. It's just too tempting to be job secure before 2L, and many of the most competitive and desirable PI and government positions are unavailable straight out of law school anyway. You can still take advantage of LRAP by doing biglaw for a few years and then going into PI, but LRAP is far less generous for people who do this. From my research, all LRAPs expect you to pay down your debt very aggressively when you're making biglaw salary. By the time you transition into PI, your LRAP eligibility will be quite small.

I agree that going to HYS will give you greater access to the best opportunities and perhaps better access to good opportunities, relative to a CCN student with comparable grades. HYS also tends to have better quality of life in school thanks to no grades and less stress about joblessness. Prestige is nice, too. But 0Ls I know don't seem to appreciate how terrible six-figure debt is. Everyone has a different threshold of cost difference that makes HYS "worth it" over CCN, but many 0Ls set that threshold too high. IMO a $170K difference (which assumes no need-based aid) is far above the threshold for most law students who, whether they know it or not, will end up in biglaw.

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby basilseal » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:45 pm

I think many of the people whom one is trying to impress with "Harvard Law" (and I'll be the first to admit that I'm impressed) would be equally impressed with the goodies a biglaw salary undocked by loan payments can provide a 25 year old.

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:59 pm

courtneylove wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You made the right choice. I've never understood how Hamilton/Rubenstein vs. Harvard (unless you get the max need-based aid from Harvard) is ever even a tough call for people.


I don't have a Rubenstein but I came into UChicago with a big scholarship, and I regret leaving the east coast every single day. I don't like any of the students here and really fucking hate Hyde Park, Chicago, and pretty much all of Illinois in general. I'd take my chances paying sticker at Harvard over throwing away three years of my twenties in this hellhole.



Image

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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:26 pm

basilseal wrote:I think many of the people whom one is trying to impress with "Harvard Law" (and I'll be the first to admit that I'm impressed) would be equally impressed with the goodies a biglaw salary undocked by loan payments can provide a 25 year old.


Asians are impressed with Harvard in a way they're not impressed with money.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:49 am

rayiner wrote:
basilseal wrote:I think many of the people whom one is trying to impress with "Harvard Law" (and I'll be the first to admit that I'm impressed) would be equally impressed with the goodies a biglaw salary undocked by loan payments can provide a 25 year old.


Asians are impressed with Harvard in a way they're not impressed with money.


Agreed. It is like knighthood or landing the plane in the Hudson River. I am not being hyperbolic. But, this may be because Asian participation in other status-conferring fields like athletics, entertainment, and war is limited-- making Garvard the end all be all of every academic field but medicine. Also the success of the child is the Tiger Mom's (and the supporting community's) full legacy.

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rayiner
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Re: Rubenstein vs. HLS

Postby rayiner » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:03 am

TaipeiMort wrote:
rayiner wrote:
basilseal wrote:I think many of the people whom one is trying to impress with "Harvard Law" (and I'll be the first to admit that I'm impressed) would be equally impressed with the goodies a biglaw salary undocked by loan payments can provide a 25 year old.


Asians are impressed with Harvard in a way they're not impressed with money.


Agreed. It is like knighthood or landing the plane in the Hudson River. I am not being hyperbolic. But, this may be because Asian participation in other status-conferring fields like athletics, entertainment, and war is limited-- making Garvard the end all be all of every academic field but medicine. Also the success of the child is the Tiger Mom's (and the supporting community's) full legacy.


To help white people understand the mindset... My brother is graduating undergrad with a lucrative job, but one that has a lot of forced attrition. I explained to my dad that it was a win-win: either he doesn't make it and takes a few years of good WE to b-school, or he does make it and ends up making a ton of money. He was intensively uncomfortable with the idea that my brother may not get a graduate degree, even if the reason was that he was making too much money for one to be worthwhile.




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