NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?

NYU (sticker)
19
25%
Mich (54k)
16
21%
Duke (54k)
24
31%
Cornell (90k)
18
23%
 
Total votes: 77

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rowingmyboat
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NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby rowingmyboat » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:51 pm

Edit: Accepted at Chicago off the waitlist and attending.
Last edited by rowingmyboat on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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quiver
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby quiver » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:03 pm

So what does your total cost of attendance look like at each?

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skers
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby skers » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:06 pm

Pick between better job prospects at NYU and at least 75k less debt at Duke.

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NinerFan
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby NinerFan » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:25 pm

A 70-80k difference is pretty significant. I'd go with Mich or Duke.

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quiver
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby quiver » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:59 pm

IMO, you can cross Cornell right off. They don't have great AIII placement (which you want) and although they do well at biglaw, you can get that same placement with better AIII placement at Duke and Mich. In other words, I think Mich is worth at least 20k more than Cornell and Duke is worth at least 10k more than Cornell here.

So Duke vs. Mich vs. NYU. They all pretty much have comparable AIII and private sector placement although the general consensus is that firms (especially NYC firms) will go slightly deeper into NYU's class. But does that extra percentage justify an extra 70-80k difference? I personally don't think so.

So IMO it's between Duke and Mich. Choose whichever you like better.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:38 pm

quiver wrote:So Duke vs. Mich vs. NYU. They all pretty much have comparable AIII and private sector placement although the general consensus is that firms (especially NYC firms) will go slightly deeper into NYU's class. But does that extra percentage justify an extra 70-80k difference? I personally don't think so.

So IMO it's between Duke and Mich. Choose whichever you like better.

This. I'm guessing Duke is edging Mich out because of your southern ties (and because it's slightly cheaper).

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sach1282
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby sach1282 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:46 pm

Come to Duke with me! Durham kicks more ass than Bigfoot going medieval on a herd of donkeys.

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rowingmyboat
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby rowingmyboat » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:28 pm

sach1282 wrote:Come to Duke with me! Durham kicks more ass than Bigfoot going medieval on a herd of donkeys.


Haha. Ok, I'm convinced. Better to go with the money for pretty similar job opportunities.

Thanks everyone!

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FlanAl
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby FlanAl » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:50 pm

you should choose based on fit etc. also check the graded vs. non-graded legal writing. Pretty sure NYU only has 3 substantive classes and an ungraded legal writing, if all the other options have the graded legal writing I'd take NYU even though its more expensive.

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bk1
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby bk1 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:01 pm

OP seems to have made a decision but I'll chime in since I don't understand the previous responses:

What's with the Cornell hate? Cornell like pretty much all non-HYS T14 schools has A3 placement in the 8-15% range that fluctuates from year to year. In any case the differences are quite small and with Cornell's small class size it only takes a few people to wildly swing their percentages (2 people getting or not getting a clerkship is a 1% change). More importantly your chances of getting a clerkship out of any of these schools is quite small. NYU will help with biglaw but it's not worth 70-90k more than the lower T14. I'd pick your personal preference of UMich/Duke/Cornell. Given your preference for Boston/NYC I'd probably lean Cornell since I imagine it has a slight edge over its peers in that region and it's the cheapest. But the cost differences are close enough that I don't think cost is necessarily a deciding factor between the 3.

NYU's sticker price debt creates a substantial risk of not staying in biglaw long enough to repay it. While your odds are better at getting biglaw, you have a decent chance of being fucked if you can't make it 5 years in biglaw (which only 20% of people do).

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:15 pm

I wouldn't worry about clerkships from any of these schools. While it's possible you could get one from any of them, there is not a big enough difference in probability between them in order to justify picking one over the other for that.

You claim you want NYC. If that's true, Cornell/NYU are much better options than Michigan or Duke as their primary market is NYC -> as a result, pretty much every NYC firm (NLJ or otherwise) that regularly hires new graduates OCI's or resume collects at Cornell/NYU.

You claim you want Boston. None of these schools are good for Boston without ties/Patent eligibility. If you do have ties to Boston, then they are all good choices.

Ties to the south. Given you have ties to the south, you should, in theory, be competitive there from all of the above schools.

Cost. NYU is dramatically more expensive than you other options (by about $100K), and its difference in placement simply does not justify that difference in cost. That leaves the others which all cost about the same.

If NYC is truly that big of a goal for you, Cornell would likely give you more of a chance for that out of the remaining schools (Cornell/Michigan/Duke). Michigan and Duke do well in NY, but they generally place a lot less of their classes (Duke - 22.2% of the class of 2010 went to NY; Michigan doesn't seem to publish geography) there than Cornell, and factually, we don't know why that is (competition? self selection? We just don't know).

For your goals, it's difficult to distinguish between Michigan and Duke. I guess I'll give Duke the leg up solely because it's in the south, which is where you have ties.

So basically, if cost is not a factor, NYU -> Cornell -> Duke -> Michigan
If cost is a factor, Cornell -> Duke -> Michigan -> NYU

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beachbum
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby beachbum » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:17 pm

FlanAl wrote:you should choose based on fit etc. also check the graded vs. non-graded legal writing. Pretty sure NYU only has 3 substantive classes and an ungraded legal writing, if all the other options have the graded legal writing I'd take NYU even though its more expensive.


ehhh, I dunno about that. Duke has 3 substantive classes and graded legal writing, but our legal writing only meets for the first half of each semester. Not sure how things are at these other schools, but I'd take graded LARW for half a semester over ungraded LARW and having to worry about writing assignments while I study for finals.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:26 pm

rowingmyboat wrote:Thanks for your help.
I am thinking I would like a clerkship and then biglaw, but I am not set on this and so I'd like to keep my options open. I know Cornell had a fluke year last year, and I've heard some stories that make me scared to attend despite the scholly.
I like to think I'm debt averse, but I'm more averse to being unemployed upon graduating.
I would like to end up in Boston or NYC, but I have ties to the south so that wouldn't be the worst thing ever.
Prefer living in a smaller town than nyc, but subletting seems like a pain/I will probably move there for work anyway.

Mostly, I'm just trying to balance between debt and employment prospects. My gut keeps switching between NYU and Duke if that matters.


Edit:
Approx COA
NYU - 224k
Mich - 156k
Duke - 145k
Cornell - 134k

Your math is wrong.

Michigan's COA is $67,870 per year for out of state. For three years, that comes out to $203,610. With the scholarship factored in, your cost of attendance is $149,610. Source: --LinkRemoved--

Duke's COA is $71,197 per year. For three years, that comes out to $213,591. With the scholarship factored in, your cost of attendance is $159,591. Source: http://www.law.duke.edu/admis/financial/handbook/sec3

Please don't pick Duke here just because it's cheaper.

woeisme
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby woeisme » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:36 pm

Duke, Cornell, and Michigan are comparable... D and M do slightly better with clerkships and C with biglaw. NYU is better at both than the other three.

I'd probably do Cornell since it matches your goals and is your cheapest option. I'm fairly surprised at the results of the poll so far.

Have you visited any of them? Personal preference?

Edit: since I posted this Cornell gained some votes. Still not sure why Duke has more given the difference in price and OP's preference for Boston/NYC though...
Last edited by woeisme on Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

woeisme
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby woeisme » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:39 pm

bk1 wrote:OP seems to have made a decision but I'll chime in since I don't understand the previous responses:

What's with the Cornell hate? Cornell like pretty much all non-HYS T14 schools has A3 placement in the 8-15% range that fluctuates from year to year. In any case the differences are quite small and with Cornell's small class size it only takes a few people to wildly swing their percentages (2 people getting or not getting a clerkship is a 1% change). More importantly your chances of getting a clerkship out of any of these schools is quite small. NYU will help with biglaw but it's not worth 70-90k more than the lower T14. I'd pick your personal preference of UMich/Duke/Cornell. Given your preference for Boston/NYC I'd probably lean Cornell since I imagine it has a slight edge over its peers in that region and it's the cheapest. But the cost differences are close enough that I don't think cost is necessarily a deciding factor between the 3.

NYU's sticker price debt creates a substantial risk of not staying in biglaw long enough to repay it. While your odds are better at getting biglaw, you have a decent chance of being fucked if you can't make it 5 years in biglaw (which only 20% of people do).


Well said.

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NinerFan
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby NinerFan » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:42 pm

Good spot, but 2 things- 1) Michigan appears projects expenses for 8 months, and Duke projects for 9 months. I highly doubt you're only going to be at Michigan for 8 months. For both it looks like 8 months and change. Also, the tuition figures you used for Michigan are for this year, and the Duke figures are for next year. Expect Michigan to increase tuition.

All in all, I've always assumed Michigan and Duke were a push as far as COA went and I think after factoring in the above things, it will be fairly similar.

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FlanAl
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby FlanAl » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:43 pm

beachbum wrote:
FlanAl wrote:you should choose based on fit etc. also check the graded vs. non-graded legal writing. Pretty sure NYU only has 3 substantive classes and an ungraded legal writing, if all the other options have the graded legal writing I'd take NYU even though its more expensive.


ehhh, I dunno about that. Duke has 3 substantive classes and graded legal writing, but our legal writing only meets for the first half of each semester. Not sure how things are at these other schools, but I'd take graded LARW for half a semester over ungraded LARW and having to worry about writing assignments while I study for finals.


if it isn't graded then you don't have to worry about writing assignments at all ever. sounds like duke has the next best thing to ungraded since you only have it for half the semester.

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NinerFan
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby NinerFan » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:49 pm

FlanAl wrote:
beachbum wrote:
FlanAl wrote:you should choose based on fit etc. also check the graded vs. non-graded legal writing. Pretty sure NYU only has 3 substantive classes and an ungraded legal writing, if all the other options have the graded legal writing I'd take NYU even though its more expensive.


ehhh, I dunno about that. Duke has 3 substantive classes and graded legal writing, but our legal writing only meets for the first half of each semester. Not sure how things are at these other schools, but I'd take graded LARW for half a semester over ungraded LARW and having to worry about writing assignments while I study for finals.


if it isn't graded then you don't have to worry about writing assignments at all ever. sounds like duke has the next best thing to ungraded since you only have it for half the semester.


If it's ungraded, why would you have to worry too much about it? Ungraded > Graded.

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beachbum
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby beachbum » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:57 pm

FlanAl wrote:
beachbum wrote:
FlanAl wrote:you should choose based on fit etc. also check the graded vs. non-graded legal writing. Pretty sure NYU only has 3 substantive classes and an ungraded legal writing, if all the other options have the graded legal writing I'd take NYU even though its more expensive.


ehhh, I dunno about that. Duke has 3 substantive classes and graded legal writing, but our legal writing only meets for the first half of each semester. Not sure how things are at these other schools, but I'd take graded LARW for half a semester over ungraded LARW and having to worry about writing assignments while I study for finals.


if it isn't graded then you don't have to worry about writing assignments at all ever. sounds like duke has the next best thing to ungraded since you only have it for half the semester.


Yeah, that sounds good on paper, but I know I (and I feel like a lot of people are with me on this) wouldn't completely blow it off if we were doing a major writing assignment. I'm sure the quality wouldn't be as high as a graded assignment, but you still gotta write the paper when you're worrying about other things, and you're still probably gonna try for at least some minimum level of quality.

In other words, it's gonna take up time, and it's gonna be one more thing to worry about when you have plenty to worry about already. Compare this to Duke's system, which has only three graded assignments (office memo, motion memo, appellate brief) over the course of the year, and which ends halfway through the semester. Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather do a graded assignment in the middle of the semester when I'm not worried about much else, than an ungraded assignment when shit is hitting the fan with finals.

I guess this is just a pet peeve of mine: the graded/ungraded LARW distinction (without more) doesn't seem like a great method for choosing a school.

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NinerFan
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby NinerFan » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:13 pm

beachbum wrote:
FlanAl wrote:
beachbum wrote:
FlanAl wrote:you should choose based on fit etc. also check the graded vs. non-graded legal writing. Pretty sure NYU only has 3 substantive classes and an ungraded legal writing, if all the other options have the graded legal writing I'd take NYU even though its more expensive.


ehhh, I dunno about that. Duke has 3 substantive classes and graded legal writing, but our legal writing only meets for the first half of each semester. Not sure how things are at these other schools, but I'd take graded LARW for half a semester over ungraded LARW and having to worry about writing assignments while I study for finals.


if it isn't graded then you don't have to worry about writing assignments at all ever. sounds like duke has the next best thing to ungraded since you only have it for half the semester.


Yeah, that sounds good on paper, but I know I (and I feel like a lot of people are with me on this) wouldn't completely blow it off if we were doing a major writing assignment. I'm sure the quality wouldn't be as high as a graded assignment, but you still gotta write the paper when you're worrying about other things, and you're still probably gonna try for at least some minimum level of quality.

In other words, it's gonna take up time, and it's gonna be one more thing to worry about when you have plenty to worry about already. Compare this to Duke's system, which has only three graded assignments (office memo, motion memo, appellate brief) over the course of the year, and which ends halfway through the semester. Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather do a graded assignment in the middle of the semester when I'm not worried about much else, than an ungraded assignment when shit is hitting the fan with finals.

I guess this is just a pet peeve of mine: the graded/ungraded LARW distinction (without more) doesn't seem like a great method for choosing a school.


True, I guess it just depends on what situation you prefer. They both have their pros and cons. Hey, if you're a great writer, you might even prefer graded as another way to distinguish yourself.

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smokeylarue
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby smokeylarue » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:42 am

Most people here are picking the money and with sensible reason. However, that said, pretty much everyone who gets into NYU got some sort of at least 54k scholarship at Duke and Michigan and Cornell so you wouldn't be the first or last to choose NYU over the other choices. If living in NYC and the easier to get Big Law appeal to you, follow your gut.

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rowingmyboat
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby rowingmyboat » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:53 pm

Thanks for all the responses. The poll looks pretty close.

Anyone think any of these options are particularly bad?

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Campagnolo
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby Campagnolo » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:13 pm

I visited Duke and Michigan and loved both. Duke is smaller, and I see that as a big plus. The law building really does seem to force teachers and students to cross paths frequently, and everyone was very friendly. Michigan is impressive in their own way. I'm picking Michigan because they do better in my home market than Duke, but that's one of the only reasons.

I think choosing debt is the only bad decision you can make here.

chasgoose
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Re: NYU vs Mich vs Duke vs Cornell

Postby chasgoose » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:36 am

beachbum wrote:
FlanAl wrote:you should choose based on fit etc. also check the graded vs. non-graded legal writing. Pretty sure NYU only has 3 substantive classes and an ungraded legal writing, if all the other options have the graded legal writing I'd take NYU even though its more expensive.


ehhh, I dunno about that. Duke has 3 substantive classes and graded legal writing, but our legal writing only meets for the first half of each semester. Not sure how things are at these other schools, but I'd take graded LARW for half a semester over ungraded LARW and having to worry about writing assignments while I study for finals.


NYU is done about a month before the first final. I have been done with Lawyering for almost two weeks....

That said, I'm not totally sure NYU is worth $70k more than Duke or Michigan. $50k maybe (especially if OP really wanted to live in NYC), but any more than that is pushing it.




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