Cardozo for almost free vs .....

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2015JD
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Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby 2015JD » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:22 pm

So Cardozo for $45k a year guaranteed renewable for three years

Also have Fordham for $5k a year need based aid

or I can stay on the wait list at Vandy, GW, W&L, W&M, Maryland

I assume the schools I am waitlisted at will give me no money what so ever.

Are any of the schools I am waitlisted at (Vandy, GW, W&L, W&M, Maryland) worth sticker over Cardozo with $45k a year guaranteed? Is Fordham with $5k a year better than Cardozo with $45k a year (I think this is a huge no but a second op helps)?

I wanna do BigFed/PI/ADA.

bdole2
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby bdole2 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:25 pm

Gooooooood luck getting BigFed.

Cardozo is easily the best option you have right now...assuming you want to practice in NYC. What is your GPA / LSAT?

2015JD
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby 2015JD » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:28 pm

bdole2 wrote:Gooooooood luck getting BigFed.

Cardozo is easily the best option you have right now...assuming you want to practice in NYC. What is your GPA / LSAT?


3.55 164 PR URM

I know BigFed is a long shot, but I figure the PMF gives me a decent shot at something.

Cardozo will still put me in debt ~$80,000 thanks to the cost of living.

Should add I would prefer the Washington Metropolitan Area over NYC due to the COL, taxes, etc.

bdole2
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby bdole2 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:32 pm

80k is kinda pushing it for 'dozo, but it still beats paying sticker at the other schools. I would recommend retaking the LSAT. With a few more points you could probably have some $$ at schools you are currently waitlisted at.

2015JD
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby 2015JD » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:38 pm

bdole2 wrote:80k is kinda pushing it for 'dozo, but it still beats paying sticker at the other schools. I would recommend retaking the LSAT. With a few more points you could probably have some $$ at schools you are currently waitlisted at.


Not retaking, but I agree I feel like $80k for Cardozo is to much. But at the same time is $250k in debt worth it for GW (if I even get in)?

bdole2
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby bdole2 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:42 pm

2015JD wrote:But at the same time is $250k in debt worth it for GW (if I even get in)?


No.

2015JD wrote:Not retaking


Why?

2015JD
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby 2015JD » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:49 pm

bdole2 wrote:
2015JD wrote:But at the same time is $250k in debt worth it for GW (if I even get in)?


No.

2015JD wrote:Not retaking


Why?


Because the job market sucks and I don't feel like spending the next year of my life earning $10 an hour living worse than I did in college.

Question to all those who say retake. You do realize that taking a year off for some bullshit hourly wage slave job is not a plus on your app, and unless you can increase by 4+ points your app is probably worse off in the end.

And don't gimmie that bullshit that Law Schools like experience, cause the type of experience they want is not the type that a liberal arts major out of Undergrad can get ITE.

Also by GW at $250k being worth it, I meant IN COMPARISON to Cardozo at $80k.

tennisking88
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby tennisking88 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:56 pm

2015JD wrote:Question to all those who say retake. You do realize that taking a year off for some bullshit hourly wage slave job is not a plus on your app, and unless you can increase by 4+ points your app is probably worse off in the end.

And don't gimmie that bullshit that Law Schools like experience, cause the type of experience they want is not the type that a liberal arts major out of Undergrad can get ITE.


This is right. Unless you're positive that you can do better on a retake, don't retake.

However, I would reassess your goals for BigFed if I were you. There is a hiring/budget freeze right now, and no one knows when, if ever, it will be lifted. An unsympathetic (read: Republican) administration could also cut federal jobs. PI has always been, and will be, rare, so don't count on that. I would say at this point, if these are really your true goals, go to the school that leaves you with the least amount of debt possible. If that's Dozo, then go to Dozo. I would under no circumstances go to Fordham with only 5k in aid. I say ride out the T14 waitlists and if no dice, choose the cheapest option available.

lobolawyer
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby lobolawyer » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:58 pm

2015JD wrote:
bdole2 wrote:80k is kinda pushing it for 'dozo, but it still beats paying sticker at the other schools. I would recommend retaking the LSAT. With a few more points you could probably have some $$ at schools you are currently waitlisted at.


Not retaking, but I agree I feel like $80k for Cardozo is to much. But at the same time is $250k in debt worth it for GW (if I even get in)?


Don't go to any law school that will leave you $250k in debt.

rad lulz
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:00 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

2015JD
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby 2015JD » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:02 pm

rad lulz wrote:
2015JD wrote:and unless you can increase by 4+ points your app is probably worse off in the end.

Glancing at LSN for a few minutes would dispel that notion. 1 point the nudges you to the median or just above it can get you in at a lot of places.


Are you glancing at people who retook after taking a year off at some bullshit slave labor job? Or are you glancing at two different people one with a 164 and one with a 165?

You don't even have to answer cause I know which one you are looking at.

rad lulz
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:08 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

2015JD
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby 2015JD » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:10 pm

rad lulz wrote:
2015JD wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
2015JD wrote:and unless you can increase by 4+ points your app is probably worse off in the end.

Glancing at LSN for a few minutes would dispel that notion. 1 point the nudges you to the median or just above it can get you in at a lot of places.


Are you glancing at people who retook after taking a year off at some bullshit slave labor job? Or are you glancing at two different people one with a 164 and one with a 165?

You don't even have to answer cause I know which one you are looking at.

Shit bro where are you even getting this idea from? Law schools don't see it as a negative that you took a year off to wait tables or whatever vs doing BB banking. Tons of LSN profiles and people on TLS can attest to this. Just the other day I actually talked to the admissions bro at my school about this. Shit, working as an office monkey for a year or two and a high LSAT can get a dude with a toilet GPA into NU.


Please show me one person who's app was helped by them waiting tables for a year.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:18 pm

tennisking88 wrote:
2015JD wrote:Question to all those who say retake. You do realize that taking a year off for some bullshit hourly wage slave job is not a plus on your app, and unless you can increase by 4+ points your app is probably worse off in the end.

And don't gimmie that bullshit that Law Schools like experience, cause the type of experience they want is not the type that a liberal arts major out of Undergrad can get ITE.


This is right. Unless you're positive that you can do better on a retake, don't retake.


Actually, it's wrong. Just a few LSAT points can make a huge difference, especially if you are right below their median (or right at last year's median and they are hoping to boost their median by a point).

And having a year doing a bullshit job between undergrad and law school is a positive (even if only a tiny one), not a negative. It may not be a big boost on your application, but it will not be seen as a negative. People who take off time between undergrad and law school do better, on average, in law school and do better, on average, at OCI. Schools know both of these things. Living at your parents house for a year and doing absolutely nothing so you have a weird one year gap on your resume might hurt you, but most everything else will only help (albeit probably to a very marginal extent), not hurt.

rad lulz
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:20 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:24 pm

2015JD wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Shit bro where are you even getting this idea from? Law schools don't see it as a negative that you took a year off to wait tables or whatever vs doing BB banking. Tons of LSN profiles and people on TLS can attest to this. Just the other day I actually talked to the admissions bro at my school about this. Shit, working as an office monkey for a year or two and a high LSAT can get a dude with a toilet GPA into NU.


Please show me one person who's app was helped by them waiting tables for a year.


It doesn't work that way. Waiting tables for a year is not going to be a very helpful soft. The point is that is won't hurt you, and you improve your chances by reapplying with just a few points increase on the LSAT.

Though, a complete bullshit year does help a decent amount at schools who actually do require 1-2 years work experience, like NU. NU was more than happy to accept me (2 years grad school, 1 yr very marginal w/e (15-20 hours teaching the LSAT) as a splitter when it would have been unlikely for me to have been accepted as a K-JD (their K-JD accepted people have noticeably higher stats).

ETA: Scooped, dammit.

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dingbat
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby dingbat » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:17 pm

Cardozo for free is not bad. $80k debt is scary but I don't think any of the schools are worth $100k+ more than Dozo, unless you have very specific career goals (eg if you really want to be in DC, GW is a better choice)
Do realize that your options straight out of law school ate limited to NY (not neccesarily a bad thing) and that there's a lot of un(der)employment at/below median.
At Cardozo you'll have to do well just to get a (law) job, so no slacking for you

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quiver
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby quiver » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:12 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:People who take off time between undergrad and law school do better, on average, in law school and do better, on average, at OCI.
Not trying to derail, but I'm contesting the bolded. I'm willing to agree that people with WE generally do better at OCI but I don't see any basis for concluding that they do better grades-wise in law school (although I'm open to seeing data that proves me wrong).

OP: Cardozo is probably your best option right now, but, as others have suggested, a retake with even a few more points would help (for example, getting you more money at Fordham).

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:18 pm

quiver wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:People who take off time between undergrad and law school do better, on average, in law school and do better, on average, at OCI.
Not trying to derail, but I'm contesting the bolded. I'm willing to agree that people with WE generally do better at OCI but I don't see any basis for concluding that they do better grades-wise in law school (although I'm open to seeing data that proves me wrong).

OP: Cardozo is probably your best option right now, but, as others have suggested, a retake with even a few more points would help (for example, getting you more money at Fordham).


Completely fair. Should have qualified and said based on what I've seen at my law school (which I know is a small sample size). Data on this would probably be hard to get. The best way to do might be to try and compile a list of average and median age of all law students for a school and for that school's law review. (Not a perfect proxy, but easier to do at schools that don't rank.) I know at my school the average age on law review is a few years older than the average age of all law students.

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quiver
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby quiver » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:47 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
quiver wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:People who take off time between undergrad and law school do better, on average, in law school and do better, on average, at OCI.
Not trying to derail, but I'm contesting the bolded. I'm willing to agree that people with WE generally do better at OCI but I don't see any basis for concluding that they do better grades-wise in law school (although I'm open to seeing data that proves me wrong).

OP: Cardozo is probably your best option right now, but, as others have suggested, a retake with even a few more points would help (for example, getting you more money at Fordham).


Completely fair. Should have qualified and said based on what I've seen at my law school (which I know is a small sample size). Data on this would probably be hard to get. The best way to do might be to try and compile a list of average and median age of all law students for a school and for that school's law review. (Not a perfect proxy, but easier to do at schools that don't rank.) I know at my school the average age on law review is a few years older than the average age of all law students.
Yeah, like you said, it would be very tough to find out. But even your method wouldn't give you "average" performance of WE people vs. K-JDs. Like if the LR is all 26 year olds and the entire bottom 25% of the class was 25 year olds with K-JDs in between. You'd literally have to know everyone's age and rank to get the whole picture of this; just not feasible for people outside the administration.

The point still stands though: it's not the work experience that helps in admissions, it's the extra time to get a higher LSAT.

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bk1
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:57 pm

2015JD wrote:Question to all those who say retake. You do realize that taking a year off for some bullshit hourly wage slave job is not a plus on your app, and unless you can increase by 4+ points your app is probably worse off in the end.

And don't gimmie that bullshit that Law Schools like experience, cause the type of experience they want is not the type that a liberal arts major out of Undergrad can get ITE.


This is so wrong it's hilarious. Your app will not be worse off. Schools pretty much only care about medians and URM status. Even if you don't improve, you're still a 3.55/164/PR. The only thing that MIGHT hurt you from waiting a year is if you previously declined admissions. They might be less willing to accept you since you've already shown you don't want them, but if you give them a good enough bullshit reason why you took a year off you can likely get that admission again because they want your GPA/LSAT/URMstatus. You should retake. You at least have a shot at improving (which means a shot at better schools) even if you don't actually improve.

Why does PMF give you a decent shot? There's almost 10,000 apps for something like 500 spots if I've done my research correctly (I don't really know all that much about PMF). I'm sure there are plenty of other law grads applying to the same thing.

JasonR
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby JasonR » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:45 pm

2015JD wrote:Question to all those who say retake. You do realize that taking a year off for some bullshit hourly wage slave job is not a plus on your app, and unless you can increase by 4+ points your app is probably worse off in the end.

And don't gimmie that bullshit that Law Schools like experience, cause the type of experience they want is not the type that a liberal arts major out of Undergrad can get ITE.

Also by GW at $250k being worth it, I meant IN COMPARISON to Cardozo at $80k.


There's just so much fail in this post.

Law schools wouldn't give a crap what you did in the extra year, as long as you were employed. Waiting tables for a year probably wouldn't be a plus at most places (though it would help at NU), but it also wouldn't hurt your app, like you claim. A gain of a solitary point on the LSAT would make your app stronger, especially if it involved reaching or going above a median.

Like others said, the only things almost all law schools really care about, and not in this order, are your URM status (which isn't changing), your GPA (which isn't changing either), and your highest LSAT score (which you could still change, with possible massive benefits). The idea that you would need to jump 4+ points on your LSAT to offset the alleged damage of working a wage job for a year is just too ridiculous for words. I have no idea how you went through the entire application process and still managed to retain an idea that outrageously wrong.

But if you want to rush into massive debt at schools that don't give you much of a shot at your career goals just so you can avoid the horrors of working a wage job for a year and buckling down to score higher on the test--which would get you into much better schools, dramatically improve your debt outlook, and give you a much better shot at your long-term career goals--then don't let us talk you out of it.

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dingbat
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby dingbat » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:51 pm

JasonR wrote:
2015JD wrote:Question to all those who say retake. You do realize that taking a year off for some bullshit hourly wage slave job is not a plus on your app, and unless you can increase by 4+ points your app is probably worse off in the end.

And don't gimmie that bullshit that Law Schools like experience, cause the type of experience they want is not the type that a liberal arts major out of Undergrad can get ITE.

Also by GW at $250k being worth it, I meant IN COMPARISON to Cardozo at $80k.


There's just so much fail in this post.

Law schools wouldn't give a crap what you did in the extra year, as long as you were employed. Waiting tables for a year probably wouldn't be a plus at most places (though it would help at NU), but it also wouldn't hurt your app, like you claim. A gain of a solitary point on the LSAT would make your app stronger, especially if it involved reaching or going above a median.

Like others said, the only things law schools care about, and not in this order, are your URM status (which isn't changing), your GPA (which isn't changing either), and your highest LSAT score (which you could still change, with possible massive benefits). The idea that you would need to jump 4+ points on your LSAT to offset the alleged damage of working a wage job for a year is just too ridiculous for words. I have no idea how you went through the entire application process and still managed to retain an idea that outrageously wrong.

But if you want to rush into massive debt at schools that don't give you much of a shot at your career goals just so you can avoid the horrors of working a wage job for a year and buckling down to score higher on the test--which would get you into much better schools, dramatically improve your debt outlook, and give you a much better shot at your long-term career goals--then don't let us talk you out of it.

While this is all true, OP is unlikely to get into a T14, so thè goal here should be to maximize scholarship / minimize cost. Dozo has decent employment prospects and even a 4 point jump won't give a full ride (or even a half-ride) to Fordham, so delaying a year is unlikely to be worth all that much. None of the other schos on the waitlist are likely to give more than half-ride either and based on OP's goals keeping costs down is arguably more important. With the possible exception of Vandy, none of em make a sufficient enough difference to pile on an additional $50k+ of debt. But, at Dozo, it is that much more important for OP to bust a nut to be in the top of the class, with much less margin for error

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bk1
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby bk1 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:27 am

dingbat wrote:While this is all true, OP is unlikely to get into a T14, so thè goal here should be to maximize scholarship / minimize cost. Dozo has decent employment prospects and even a 4 point jump won't give a full ride (or even a half-ride) to Fordham, so delaying a year is unlikely to be worth all that much. None of the other schos on the waitlist are likely to give more than half-ride either and based on OP's goals keeping costs down is arguably more important. With the possible exception of Vandy, none of em make a sufficient enough difference to pile on an additional $50k+ of debt. But, at Dozo, it is that much more important for OP to bust a nut to be in the top of the class, with much less margin for error


You're undervaluing OP's URM status.

2015JD
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Re: Cardozo for almost free vs .....

Postby 2015JD » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:35 am

Deposited at Cardozo, Withdrew from Fordham, W&L, W&M, and Maryland.

Gonna ride it out at GW and Vandy. I feel those schools are worth the 150k+ over Cardozo.




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