Depaul vs Hofstra vs Syracuse Forum

[jamie3]

If you think you could get a 170+ and instead you go to Depaul, you will have made the worst decision of your life. Not exaggerating in the least.

There are dozens of people on this site who were in your position. Of those who retook, not a single person regrets that year off. There are countless examples of people whose lives changed as a result of that year off. A 170+, or even high 160s, would change your school options dramatically, which in turn would change your job prospects dramatically. This is the biggest investment you will ever make. Treat it as such.

Your odds of transferring from Depaul to a Chicago T14 are small. Hofstra to Columbia? Lolok. It would be far, far, far easier to just retake, get a better LSAT, and reapply to get in to a better school than it would be to go in betting on a transfer. I know law students are bad at math, but this is grade school level probabilities applied to a major life investment. If you think you can improve on the LSAT, then retake. You are doing yourself a serious disservice if you rush in to one of these schools.

If you are implying I am bad at math, then you would be mistaken, math was my strongest field. Furthermore, Hofstra from Columbia was no joke, I knew several people who made the jump, and this was several years ago when Hofstra was a tier 3. I am also considering these probabilities measured with my life circumstances, like I said before, my life circumstances could make going to law school in one year impossible, it can also bury me in debt, so I have to consider this now. I know it is a gamble.

In other words, my probability of anything is different from those of the average prospective law student. In addition, I have to consider the likelihood that I can't study for the lsat as much as I would like too, especially considering the last time I took it. My odds are against me raising my score for next year, they are against me for going to law school next year, and they are against me finding any work in the coming years. So I fail to really see how retaking the exam and waiting a year will be far, far, far easier than anything else. Especially since both options right now (going to law school now and retaking), can have dire consequences that can haunt me for the rest of my life, retaking at the moment seeming like the worst. So that is why I am considering the pros and cons of these three schools if I don't get into one from the waitlist. For example, I see a longer list of high-powered lawyers from Syracuse and only few from Depaul. Also, I was not only considering a transfer on up to a T14, I was also considering a transfer to a school with a better job outlook.

[romothesavior]

Why can't you actually study for the LSAT? It is the most important exam you'll ever take, it is far easier to master than law school exams, and it is far less expensive than doing a year of law school trying to transfer. You lose almost nothing taking a year off. Not sure what this "gamble" is you're talking about. Going to Hofstra or Depaul is an infinitely bigger (stupider) gamble than just taking the LSAT again. I just don't follow your logic.

Whatever though... your decision, your life. You've got a legion of law students, including Depaul students, advising you not to make this plunge, but you sound like you're zeroed in. You seem like a good guy so I wish you the best, but there's a big probability of under/unemployment and big debt. But good luck whatever you decide to do.

[rad lulz]

.

[station4]

.

[jamie3]

OP - do you have a 2.3 stipulation on your DePaul scholarship? If so, are you an URM?

Anyways, I second all the sentiments above regarding DePaul. I think DePaul is clearly the fifth-best school in Chicago right now. Even Kent smartened up and started handing out more money with no stips in response to all the bad publicity it was getting. DePaul just proceeded with business as normal (i.e., mediocre money, stringent stipulations). It makes you wonder about the alumni, really.

I know multiple students at DePaul who are doing well academically and getting killed in the job market. And these are people with strong ties to Chicago and the Chicago legal market.

You don't want to move across the country to a city you have no ties in to go to the fifth-best school in that city for anything less than a full-ride with stipend. So just cross DePaul off your list.

Thanks, this info helps. I am currently not a NYC resident either, and only have marginal ties to the city, none related whatsoever to law. In addition, everyone I know will be leaving by the end of the year so it will be just me. And yes, you are correct, I am URM. So I think I will consider crossing out Depaul, I would also like to add that I don't want to work in Chicago that much. However, Depaul is currently giving me the best offer, and they are treating me nicer then the rest. Hopefully I will hear back from Kent in the coming weeks though. Also is a 2.3 gpa a stringent stipulation? Not sure exactly how someone at Depaul would view it.

Why can't you actually study for the LSAT? It is the most important exam you'll ever take, it is far easier to master than law school exams, and it is far less expensive than doing a year of law school trying to transfer. You lose almost nothing taking a year off. Not sure what this "gamble" is you're talking about. Going to Hofstra or Depaul is an infinitely bigger (stupider) gamble than just taking the LSAT again. I just don't follow your logic.

Whatever though... your decision, your life. You've got a legion of law students, including Depaul students, advising you not to make this plunge, but you sound like you're zeroed in. You seem like a good guy so I wish you the best, but there's a big probability of under/unemployment and big debt. But good luck whatever you decide to do.

The gamble I was referring to was going to Hofstra or Depaul, anyother option might not even exist.

To answer this question, I have not zeroed in, in the context of the question I previously asked, I am zeroed in. The whole point of this discussion was pointing out the pros and cons of the three main institutions listed. I have listed examples, like for example, Syracuse has this field of study, Hofstra has had success with this, or Depaul has been sued and is no good because of this. That kind of information is helpful, like the post above about Depaul. However, information pertaining to completely avoiding the school because it's low rank, does not help answer any part of the question, it is out of scope, it is suggesting that I will out-right make that decision.

I am glad for the sentiments presented, they obviously have the best intentions, and my benefit in mind, but if it comes to these three schools, I will have to make a decision of possible going to one of these schools. So I ask what are the pros and cons? Even if the cons far out-weigh the pros. The answer that the school is low rank and I shouldn't go, helps little.

As for not being able to study. I'm a full-time caretaker to a heavily disabled person. Studying is near impossible as this consumes most of my time of the day. Sometimes I get a week off, but it rarely boosts my LSAT score studying this way. In addition, I have already been through one funeral and its put me in massive debt. Finding work is almost impossible because of the above mention situation. If I choose to go to law school I will have help with this situation. Otherwise I won't, and chances are that a funeral will be coming within the next year, massively increasing my debt load. In addition, I already have student loans which will come into collection within the year I choose to take off. I can't afford to continue studying beyond this semester, so come Fall 2012, I will be out of money. Chances are I will go into debt, fail to pay a bill and ruin my credit. I don't believe I can go to law school or pass the bar with bad credit, but I might be wrong.

Anyways, there is more to this, but as you can see, the logic is there, the option of taking the year off might not be there, and the doors a law degree provides might outweigh not having it, so I am considering these options.

So with that said. I wonder what are the pros and cons of these three schools. However, I would like to add, Syracuse is probably out now. I will withdraw from that consideration later today..

Thanks again...

[jamie3]

I wish I could just be like (XYZ is the least bad option), but they are all oh so horrible options.

Also I know this could be hard, but one of these three options can have something that is better then the others, or maybe it could help to look at it in the opposite direction, one (or two) of these three schools can have something worse then the others. It could be hard but someone needs to know of some redeeming qualities.

My interest again where IP law or something like Health Law, with the idea of taking the patent bar in the future (I am aware I can take the patent bar without a law degree).

[romothesavior]

OP, I am sorry to hear about your situation. That is undoubtedly a difficult thing to manage, and it is definitely unfortunate to have to go through it. My best wishes with all of that.

I guess given all of that information, a follow-up question would be whether this situation continue throughout law school? If so, maybe now is not the time to go. If you go to law school, you will need to devote yourself intensely to it (at least during 1L), and high grades will be imperative to getting a decent job from these schools. Also, if I read you correctly, it sounds like you are already heavily indebted. Taking on more debt (non-dischargeable debt) is maybe not the best decision. Think about your future self with all the debt you already have and then 100k+ more debt, and trying to pay for that with a 50k job if you're lucky.

I'm sorry if this stuff is "outside the scope," but it is stuff to think about. I wish I could tell you that one of these schools is "less bad" than the rest, but they are all so bad for you that it is hard to do. I guess go wherever is cheapest? DePaul is probably cheapest and has the best biglaw odds. So I guess go there? And by that I mean do not go there.

[jamie3]

OP, I am sorry to hear about your situation. That is undoubtedly a difficult thing to manage, and it is definitely unfortunate to have to go through it. My best wishes with all of that.

I guess given all of that information, a follow-up question would be whether this situation continue throughout law school? If so, maybe now is not the time to go. If you go to law school, you will need to devote yourself intensely to it (at least during 1L), and high grades will be imperative to getting a decent job from these schools. Also, if I read you correctly, it sounds like you are already heavily indebted. Taking on more debt (non-dischargeable debt) is maybe not the best decision. Think about your future self with all the debt you already have and then 100k+ more debt, and trying to pay for that with a 50k job if you're lucky.

I'm sorry if this stuff is "outside the scope," but it is stuff to think about. I wish I could tell you that one of these schools is "less bad" than the rest, but they are all so bad for you that it is hard to do. I guess go wherever is cheapest? DePaul is probably cheapest and has the best biglaw odds. So I guess go there? And by that I mean do not go there.

Thank for you kind words. I will thoroughly review all my options, there are non-law avenues I am looking into too. Also, to answer your question, this will not continue through law school as I will have help, because I won't be in the same state. I am currently reviewing all my options, but this is a really tough decision. I understand that it is hard to say that one is "less bad", but it is something to consider. Right now I have no clue whether or not Hofstra will provide me with a scholarship, but knowing that Depaul has better biglaw odds intrigues me. However, all jobs don't have to be big law, I am considering any job with a decent salary as something to consider as well (even though I assume that the only decent paying jobs are probably big law).

[rad lulz]

.

[bdole2]

I have no clue whether or not Hofstra will provide me with a scholarship, but knowing that Depaul has better biglaw odds intrigues me.

It shouldn't. You have a better chance of finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow than getting biglaw from depaul.

[station4]

Thanks, this info helps. I am currently not a NYC resident either, and only have marginal ties to the city, none related whatsoever to law. In addition, everyone I know will be leaving by the end of the year so it will be just me. And yes, you are correct, I am URM. So I think I will consider crossing out Depaul, I would also like to add that I don't want to work in Chicago that much. However, Depaul is currently giving me the best offer, and they are treating me nicer then the rest. Hopefully I will hear back from Kent in the coming weeks though. Also is a 2.3 gpa a stringent stipulation? Not sure exactly how someone at Depaul would view it.

OP - DePaul has given out some scholarships, it seems mostly to URMs, with that 2.3 stipulation. That in itself is not a bad deal since you can't be curved out of that scholarship. My DePaul offer requires I maintain a 3.2 (non-URM here), which means that I would have to finish in the top 1/3 or so of the class in order to keep my scholarship. That is a pretty stringent stipulation, I think, if you ask most people. The people I know at DePaul seem to mostly have kept their scholarships, though I can't say I know for sure.

Additionally, if you don't want to work in Chicago, you will probably want to avoid DePaul, as that is really the only place your degree will be relevant. For that matter, if you don't want to end up in Chicago, Kent is pretty much in the same boat, a school which really only places in Chicago and the immediate area.

Sounds you have a lot of very difficult decisions ahead of you. Best of luck. All I can say is that ultimately you have to be comfortable with and confident in the decision you make. If you go into law school not totally confident that you have made the right choice and will be successful in school and after, I can only imagine that will be self-fulfilling.

[jamie3]

Thanks, this info helps. I am currently not a NYC resident either, and only have marginal ties to the city, none related whatsoever to law. In addition, everyone I know will be leaving by the end of the year so it will be just me. And yes, you are correct, I am URM. So I think I will consider crossing out Depaul, I would also like to add that I don't want to work in Chicago that much. However, Depaul is currently giving me the best offer, and they are treating me nicer then the rest. Hopefully I will hear back from Kent in the coming weeks though. Also is a 2.3 gpa a stringent stipulation? Not sure exactly how someone at Depaul would view it.

OP - DePaul has given out some scholarships, it seems mostly to URMs, with that 2.3 stipulation. That in itself is not a bad deal since you can't be curved out of that scholarship. My DePaul offer requires I maintain a 3.2 (non-URM here), which means that I would have to finish in the top 1/3 or so of the class in order to keep my scholarship. That is a pretty stringent stipulation, I think, if you ask most people. The people I know at DePaul seem to mostly have kept their scholarships, though I can't say I know for sure.

Additionally, if you don't want to work in Chicago, you will probably want to avoid DePaul, as that is really the only place your degree will be relevant. For that matter, if you don't want to end up in Chicago, Kent is pretty much in the same boat, a school which really only places in Chicago and the immediate area.

Sounds you have a lot of very difficult decisions ahead of you. Best of luck. All I can say is that ultimately you have to be comfortable with and confident in the decision you make. If you go into law school not totally confident that you have made the right choice and will be successful in school and after, I can only imagine that will be self-fulfilling.

Non-law would be a much better idea than going to these schools for those prices, so if you can do that, do that.

I have no clue whether or not Hofstra will provide me with a scholarship, but knowing that Depaul has better biglaw odds intrigues me.

It shouldn't. You have a better chance of finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow than getting biglaw from depaul.

Thanks for all this info, it was very helpful.

In recent days my options have shifted drastically. I am not so much interested in just biglaw but in finding work. That said, I recently was accepted to Lewis and Clark in Oregon, and it might be my top choice, for now, from what people are telling me about the school. I am not against working in Oregon as much as Chicago, however, while talking to a law adviser they recently told me that my Depaul choice "was not something to sneeze at." So now I am looking to see if Lewis and Clark offers me a scholarship. I am slightly concerned with the programs offered in that school and Job prospects in Oregon, however, the school ranks close to a tier 1, and it is the highest ranked school to accept me. In addition, I do have family and friends in the North West area so it is tempting.

Additionally, I was recently offered the chance to get a full scholarship with a living stipend at Hofstra, so I am trying to work at getting that. If I do get that I will have to choose this school or Lewis and Clark. Though I might not get it, but my decision would still be difficult, if not more so, because of Lewis and Clark. I am sure I have heard bad things about Lewis and Clark and Oregon in general, so not sure what my decision will be in the end.

[romothesavior]

Hey OP. A few responses to your last post...

1. USNWR rankings are mostly meaningless. Don't place much stock in them. Focus on geographic preference and job placement.

2. Pre-law advisers are 1) generally pretty clueless as to the current job market because they went to school a while ago and have no clue what things are like now, and 2) are incentivized to tell you to go to law school. You will learn far, far more about the current market from recent grads and current students (aka, right here on TLS). If your adviser is telling you DePaul at this price is a good option, then I would hesitate to give their opinion much stock. And I don't say this to disparage the person. My pre-law adviser from undergrad was my all-time favorite professor, one of the most standup people I've ever met, and has become a friend of mine since graduation. But it's taken him a while to grasp what all is happening with the legal industry, and he's been learning about it from former students.

3. It is great that you "just want a job" and aren't concerned about biglaw, because in all likelihood, you're not gonna get it. But first of all, just getting a full-time JD-required job is like a 50/50 proposition at some of the schools you're looking at. Second, and even more importantly, is that you need to consider your debt vs. expected income. Even if you are one of the lucky ones at Hofstra, Depaul, or even L&C and you get a legal job, the job will likely be mid-five figures. How do you expect to service hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with that kind of income? You may say you don't need biglaw now, but you're gonna be singing a different tune when you're staring down your massive student loan debt. If you take out big debt, you'll need biglaw.

4. Finally, you need to think about ties. Your options are getting more and more scattered.

[Paul Campos]

An URM with a 3.63 and a 163 will normally get into at least a couple of T-14s and would be pretty much an automatic admit at every school the OP has mentioned.

[rad lulz]

Hey OP. A few responses to your last post...

1. USNWR rankings are mostly meaningless. Don't place much stock in them. Focus on geographic preference and job placement.

2. Pre-law advisers are 1) generally pretty clueless as to the current job market because they went to school a while ago and have no clue what things are like now, and 2) are incentivized to tell you to go to law school. You will learn far, far more about the current market from recent grads and current students (aka, right here on TLS). If your adviser is telling you DePaul at this price is a good option, then I would hesitate to give their opinion much stock. And I don't say this to disparage the person. My pre-law adviser from undergrad was my all-time favorite professor, one of the most standup people I've ever met, and has become a friend of mine since graduation. But it's taken him a while to grasp what all is happening with the legal industry, and he's been learning about it from former students.

3. It is great that you "just want a job" and aren't concerned about biglaw, because in all likelihood, you're not gonna get it. But first of all, just getting a full-time JD-required job is like a 50/50 proposition at some of the schools you're looking at. Second, and even more importantly, is that you need to consider your debt vs. expected income. Even if you are one of the lucky ones at Hofstra, Depaul, or even L&C and you get a legal job, the job will likely be mid-five figures. How do you expect to service hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with that kind of income? You may say you don't need biglaw now, but you're gonna be singing a different tune when you're staring down your massive student loan debt. If you take out big debt, you'll need biglaw.

4. Finally, you need to think about ties. Your options are getting more and more scattered.

All this. Going to L&C at sticker would basically be the height of idiocy.

[wiscohopeful]

From someone who went to DePaul (and fortunately transferred out), DO NOT GO THERE unless fo free and no stipulations. So basically don't go there. I heard rumors of the scholly stacking sections though I don't necessarily believe it because I knew a good number of people in all sections who had schollys. Their placement is garbage though. They are low low low on the pecking order for big firm jobs and the grading scale can be harsh (at least it was while I was there, they may have since changed it). To to above poster who said Kent, then Loyola, then DePaul...why Kent in front of Loyola? I was always under the impression that Loyola placed better in biglaw than Kent.

This is good, I was considering transferring if I go to Depaul. I was curious when and how to transfer if I choose to go there? Also, how bad is the grading scale compared to other schools? This part worries me, since if my grades plummet, transferring is out of the question.

Does anyone have information on the grading scale at Hofstra or Syracuse?

Also when did you go, was it before the dean was changed? Does this matter? So far Depaul is the school that is treating me the nicest, so I was considering them. However, if they change attitude once there, that would make things worse.

Also I was under the impression that the school dealt with the section stacking rumor, as most people with scholarships, that I know of, received the same stipulations as me, they got to keep the scholarship as long as their gpa was above a 2.0 average.

Some schools have ED transferring with only one semester of 1L grades but for the most part you'll be waiting, and waiting, and waiting for DePaul to get your spring semester grades to you for your applications in the summer (early summer). My inkling is they were doing it on purpose so people who were on the fence about transferring were dissuaded after it took them 5 weeks to get grades to us. I went the year the dean changed (I'm a 3L right now)...or the year after he was fired...because there is a new guy who just started but there was an interim dean for two years. I don't know much about the section stacking rumors, I didn't have a scholly so I can't comment on the stips and what not.

[jamie3]

An URM with a 3.63 and a 163 will normally get into at least a couple of T-14s and would be pretty much an automatic admit at every school the OP has mentioned.

Yes, this is what I was told when I applied, yet, apparently my URM status wasn't as strong as others.

Hey OP. A few responses to your last post...

1. USNWR rankings are mostly meaningless. Don't place much stock in them. Focus on geographic preference and job placement.

2. Pre-law advisers are 1) generally pretty clueless as to the current job market because they went to school a while ago and have no clue what things are like now, and 2) are incentivized to tell you to go to law school. You will learn far, far more about the current market from recent grads and current students (aka, right here on TLS). If your adviser is telling you DePaul at this price is a good option, then I would hesitate to give their opinion much stock. And I don't say this to disparage the person. My pre-law adviser from undergrad was my all-time favorite professor, one of the most standup people I've ever met, and has become a friend of mine since graduation. But it's taken him a while to grasp what all is happening with the legal industry, and he's been learning about it from former students.

3. It is great that you "just want a job" and aren't concerned about biglaw, because in all likelihood, you're not gonna get it. But first of all, just getting a full-time JD-required job is like a 50/50 proposition at some of the schools you're looking at. Second, and even more importantly, is that you need to consider your debt vs. expected income. Even if you are one of the lucky ones at Hofstra, Depaul, or even L&C and you get a legal job, the job will likely be mid-five figures. How do you expect to service hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with that kind of income? You may say you don't need biglaw now, but you're gonna be singing a different tune when you're staring down your massive student loan debt. If you take out big debt, you'll need biglaw.

4. Finally, you need to think about ties. Your options are getting more and more scattered.

Thank you, I was thinking this would be the respond. I did realize that it seems my prelaw adviser was out of touch, I got the feeling he was more interested in selling me a school. Additionally, he never really was too fascinated by Depaul, but he simply didn't rule it out. I already had the philosophy that USnews rankings were meaningless to some extent, but I was wondering about the difficulty of getting into Lewis and Clark as oppose to the other schools on my list. I was also interested in Oregon as oppose to Chicago. I am currently wondering which school to select, I am aware my decision has gotten scattered, and that my chances of finding a good job are slim. I was also considering what are my chances of my paycheck increasing overtime. Also is the legal market just this bad because of the recession or was it always like this? I am not 100% that I would stay at a mid five digit income forever. If that is starting pay it wouldn't be as bad as if it were permanent.

However, I was thinking Lewis and Clark could be a good choice because they are the top school in Oregon, as oppose to Depaul, which was stated as being the fifth best school in Chicago (that might not include the state of Illinois).

I also don't know if Lewis and Clark has no scholarship. However, for now I will assume that it doesn't. I also heard that OCI for Lewis and Clark was less then Depaul, but the numbers I can find are from 2007-2008, it could be far worse now, or even better, but not sure.

I am curious about Lewis and Clark. Any one know why not to attend this school? For now it seems that my choice has changed to consider Depaul vs Hofstra vs Lewis and Clark. But to remain on topic, I am still considering Depaul vs Hofstra. I am currently in NY and when I mentioned Depaul to random people, they seemed to know what I was talking about, so the school seems to at least have some recognition here (though this has nothing to do with job prospect). Hofstra is also well known, but it is located in Long Island as oppose to Manhattan and some people seem to have a problem with this?

From someone who went to DePaul (and fortunately transferred out), DO NOT GO THERE unless fo free and no stipulations. So basically don't go there. I heard rumors of the scholly stacking sections though I don't necessarily believe it because I knew a good number of people in all sections who had schollys. Their placement is garbage though. They are low low low on the pecking order for big firm jobs and the grading scale can be harsh (at least it was while I was there, they may have since changed it). To to above poster who said Kent, then Loyola, then DePaul...why Kent in front of Loyola? I was always under the impression that Loyola placed better in biglaw than Kent.

This is good, I was considering transferring if I go to Depaul. I was curious when and how to transfer if I choose to go there? Also, how bad is the grading scale compared to other schools? This part worries me, since if my grades plummet, transferring is out of the question.

Does anyone have information on the grading scale at Hofstra or Syracuse?

Also when did you go, was it before the dean was changed? Does this matter? So far Depaul is the school that is treating me the nicest, so I was considering them. However, if they change attitude once there, that would make things worse.

Also I was under the impression that the school dealt with the section stacking rumor, as most people with scholarships, that I know of, received the same stipulations as me, they got to keep the scholarship as long as their gpa was above a 2.0 average.

Some schools have ED transferring with only one semester of 1L grades but for the most part you'll be waiting, and waiting, and waiting for DePaul to get your spring semester grades to you for your applications in the summer (early summer). My inkling is they were doing it on purpose so people who were on the fence about transferring were dissuaded after it took them 5 weeks to get grades to us. I went the year the dean changed (I'm a 3L right now)...or the year after he was fired...because there is a new guy who just started but there was an interim dean for two years. I don't know much about the section stacking rumors, I didn't have a scholly so I can't comment on the stips and what not.

Also I am curious about your experience with the school, you went without a scholarship. Would you say attending the school was worth it?