Iowa vs. Minnesota vs. GULC Forum

[nfohey]

Okay so here is the deal. I'm still waiting on a few schools but this is what I have my choices down to. I have full rides from both Iowa and Minnesota and no scholarship money from GULC yet.

I am interested in clerking after graduation and most likely working in a medium sized firm. I do not have a strict professional path and therefore would like to keep my options open as much as possible.

I am originally from Iowa and therefore would not have to worry about moving, but obviously the move to Minnesota isn't that far. At this point I would say that I'm leaning towards Iowa. The only educational difference I can find between Iowa and Minnesota is an arbitrary rankings boost and a few more clinical options at Minnesota, and that doesn't seem like quite enough to relocate for. And without any $$, it would be difficult for me to rationalize GULC, but the opportunities they provide would be nice.

What do you guys think?

[Nelson]

Does your Iowa scholarship have one of those awful stips they sometimes have?

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Iowa and Minn are peer schools regardless of rank. Go to where you want to live, or roll the dice and go to GULC.

FWIW, if you wait out a lot of these T-14 schools you can get money.

If I was you, I'd double deposit at Iowa and GULC, and wait on the money while planning on attending Iowa.

[deadpoetnsp]

You might want to consider the generous GPA stipulation that UMN offers (usually, >2.5). You may think you won't need it - but you just might. Many other schools have a stipulation of 3.3 or top-third or something, and people DO lose scholarships.

[nfohey]

Does your Iowa scholarship have one of those awful stips they sometimes have?

Unfortunately, yes: top 3rd. Minnesota has one as well: 2.5 GPA. But when I visited Minnesota I was told that a 2.5 is also their threshold for dropping out so that shouldn't be a problem.

[nfohey]

Iowa and Minn are peer schools regardless of rank. Go to where you want to live, or roll the dice and go to GULC.

FWIW, if you wait out a lot of these T-14 schools you can get money.

If I was you, I'd double deposit at Iowa and GULC, and wait on the money while planning on attending Iowa.

This seems like a decent idea. TLS doesn't seem to be very fond of GULC, but the lay prestige and the opportunities that come with it are undeniable.

[Nelson]

Does your Iowa scholarship have one of those awful stips they sometimes have?

Unfortunately, yes: top 3rd. Minnesota has one as well: 2.5 GPA. But when I visited Minnesota I was told that a 2.5 is also their threshold for dropping out so that shouldn't be a problem.

Try to get them to get rid of it by threatening to go to Minnesota/GULC. If you want to practice in Iowa, Iowa seems like TCR here, but those stips are so unreasonable.

[nfohey]

Does your Iowa scholarship have one of those awful stips they sometimes have?

Unfortunately, yes: top 3rd. Minnesota has one as well: 2.5 GPA. But when I visited Minnesota I was told that a 2.5 is also their threshold for dropping out so that shouldn't be a problem.

Try to get them to get rid of it by threatening to go to Minnesota/GULC. If you want to practice in Iowa, Iowa seems like TCR here, but those stips are so unreasonable.

I've toyed with that idea, but haven't yet simply because other people who have tried the same thing have been met with a firm no. It does seem awfully strict considering what their peers do.

[rad lulz]

.

[minnbills]

You've gotta get those stips dropped.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Iowa has top 1/3 stips? That is so Baylor.

[tlsposter]

Unless you want to practice in Minnesota, go to GULC. Even still, I would still say go to GULC. Keep in mind, the salaries in the midwest are not biglaw salaries.

[Nova]

Iowa has top 1/3 stips? That is so Baylor.

Agreed. Its suprising actually. How are they supposed to compete with UMN when they have sTTTips like that??

OP, do not go to iowa over minn. you only have a 33% chance to keep your full ride at iowa, compared to a 98% chance at UMN

[Nova]

Unless you want to practice in Minnesota, go to GULC. Even still, I would still say go to GULC. Keep in mind, the salaries in the midwest are not biglaw salaries.

neither is the COL.

[Undergradut]

Minnesota for the win. It is more prestigious than Iowa, and offers marginally better job opportunities. Most importantly, however, is this: the scholarship at Minnesota is much better in the sense that it does not come with any class rank stipulation. And no, the 2.5 GPA is not a real stipulation. You'll obviously have a higher GPA than that, if that is the dropping out point, like you said it was. By contrast, it is by no means certain that you'll have a class rank higher than 1/3 at Iowa.

It is a bit sad that IA offers these scholarships with top 1/3 stipulations. They're distasteful, if you ask me. They take advantage of the natural and naive inclination of a 0L -- which is to think, "Of course I will be in the top 1/3." The reality, however, is otherwise. Even if you had good enough stats to get a scholarship, you could still easily finish below 1/3. Is it probable? I dunno. Maybe not "probable," but I think there is definitely a good chance of it. Law school tests aren't the LSAT. Another reason top 1/3 stipulations are distasteful is that they make the whole law school experience high-reward, high-loss. If you're in the top 1/3, you get to keep the scholarship and you'll likely have good job opportunities. Pretty sweet deal. If you're not, you now have debt in addition to bleaker job opportunities. Not a sweet deal. I think a more appealing scholarship offer would be this: If you finish below the 1/3, only then you get a scholarship.

GULC without scholarship is the riskiest choice. What do you get? You get the chance to get into a big East Coast market offering top dollar. The significant risk is that you don't do as well as hoped, don't land a high paying job, and are saddled with an obscene amount of debt.

One caveat is that if you are really dead set on living in Iowa during law school and after graduation, Iowa is best. It is easier to "be in the loop" and network from Iowa than it is from Minnesota. For that matter you'd be better off at Drake (with scholly) than Minnesota. Something to consider. Some people, like myself, have a big preference for living in a specific area; both while attending law school and after graduation.

I would play hardball to try and get Iowa to get rid of the stipulation. If the stipulation is gone, I think the prestige and employment advantage of Minnesota can be easily outweighed by other considerations, such as "feel" for the school and area, other livability factors, etc.

[thexfactor]

Minnesota for the win. It is more prestigious than Iowa, and offers marginally better job opportunities. Most importantly, however, is this: the scholarship at Minnesota is much better in the sense that it does not come with any class rank stipulation. And no, the 2.5 GPA is not a real stipulation. You'll obviously have a higher GPA than that, if that is the dropping out point, like you said it was. By contrast, it is by no means certain that you'll have a class rank higher than 1/3 at Iowa.

It is a bit sad that IA offers these scholarships with top 1/3 stipulations. They're distasteful, if you ask me. They take advantage of the natural and naive inclination of a 0L -- which is to think, "Of course I will be in the top 1/3." The reality, however, is otherwise. Even if you had good enough stats to get a scholarship, you could still easily finish below 1/3. Is it probable? I dunno. Maybe not "probable," but I think there is definitely a good chance of it. Law school tests aren't the LSAT. Another reason top 1/3 stipulations are distasteful is that they make the whole law school experience high-reward, high-loss. If you're in the top 1/3, you get to keep the scholarship and you'll likely have good job opportunities. Pretty sweet deal. If you're not, you now have debt in addition to bleaker job opportunities. Not a sweet deal. I think a more appealing scholarship offer would be this: If you finish below the 1/3, only then you get a scholarship.

GULC without scholarship is the riskiest choice. What do you get? You get the chance to get into a big East Coast market offering top dollar. The significant risk is that you don't do as well as hoped, don't land a high paying job, and are saddled with an obscene amount of debt.

One caveat is that if you are really dead set on living in Iowa during law school and after graduation, Iowa is best. It is easier to "be in the loop" and network from Iowa than it is from Minnesota. For that matter you'd be better off at Drake (with scholly) than Minnesota. Something to consider. Some people, like myself, have a big preference for living in a specific area; both while attending law school and after graduation.

I would play hardball to try and get Iowa to get rid of the stipulation. If the stipulation is gone, I think the prestige and employment advantage of Minnesota can be easily outweighed by other considerations, such as "feel" for the school and area, other livability factors, etc.

What will the op get if he graduates from Uminn with no job? That is the likely scenario. No debt is great, but what do you accomplish if u graduate with a 30k a year job or no job?

I would rather go to GULC and take that risk.
GULC gives you a 50/50 chance at a good law school career. Uminn is more like 20%.

Either retake or go to GULC.

The placement difference is night and day.

[Nova]

What will the op get if he graduates from Uminn with no job? That is the likely scenario. No debt is great, but what do you accomplish if u graduate with a 30k a year job or no job?

I would rather go to GULC and take that risk.
GULC gives you a 50/50 chance at a good law school career. Uminn is more like 20%.

Either retake or go to GULC.

The placement difference is night and day.

Uhhh, no it is not. It's very likely OP will get a job with a JD from UMN.

Yeah the placement differences are huge, but OP want the midwest and isnt gunning soley for biglaw.

One caveat is that if you are really dead set on living in Iowa during law school and after graduation, Iowa is best. It is easier to "be in the loop" and network from Iowa than it is from Minnesota. For that matter you'd be better off at Drake (with scholly) than Minnesota. Something to consider. Some people, like myself, have a big preference for living in a specific area; both while attending law school and after graduation.

I agree with your entire post except the part about drake. That cant be right.

Regardless, IMO, the OP should take the tuition scholarship at UMN over the TTTuition scholarship from Iowa. Even if they want Iowa.

[Undergradut]

What will the op get if he graduates from Uminn with no job? That is the likely scenario.

I don't know what percentage of MN grads do not have a job offer at graduation, but I am sure it is a significant percentage. Even if OP graduates without a job offer at MN, OP is an alright position. OP can easily get a job. The job may be low-paying by legal standards, or it may not even be a legal job at all. However, it will be enough to comfortably repay whatever debt, if any, that was incurred during law school. That same job wouldn't necessarily pay enough to comfortably re-pay the $120,000+ in loans from GULC. It is also helpful to remember that law school performance isn't totally random. If OP is good enough to be top 50% at GULC -- which you say is the cut-off point between a "good career" or not, then OP is is more than 20% likely to be in the top 20% at MN. I see no case for attending GULC over MN w/ scholarship unless OP really values access to some big-time markets.

[rad lulz]

If OP is good enough to be top 50% at GULC -- which you say is the cut-off point between a "good career" or not, then OP is is more than 20% likely to be in the top 20% at MN.

Since there's no way to know how well you write law school exams until after you write law school exams, this is stupid. Also, you underestimate the luck factor.