Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

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nouseforaname123
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby nouseforaname123 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:47 pm

Wasn't there a great thread in the Legal Employment forum last fall where a poster who had trash-talked biglaw as a 0L and 1L admitted she sold out and took a biglaw offer at OCI? Perhaps it was a permanent job offer?

DF, I think you were in that thread. That thread should be required reading for 0L's wanting PI.
Last edited by nouseforaname123 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:08 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
I'm not making a slippery slope argument. I'm saying that forcing people to work for below market wages is slavery. And then I proceed to make fun that once we're doing slavery, we may as well just say so.
To wit: My problem is not where it will lead, but where it is.

Not a slippery slope- My problem with the affordable care act is not that one day they will make me eat broccoli, but that they will make me buy health insurance. I compare it to broccoli so that you will understand my problem.
Slippery slope- My problem with gay marriage is that I fear the precedent will eventually allow incest marriage. I compare it to incest marriage to show that it will eventually happen. (As it happens, I have more of a problem with gay marriage than with incest marriage, so I would probably argue the other way.)




God this is difficult to believe a person actually thinks.

Lemon difficult.

Trolling?


Really? And I'm thinking about half of America thinks the same way I do. Maybe you should start getting exposed to ideas which disagree with your own.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:17 pm

prosen5808 wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:

Again, you want to force law students to work at a low paying job for 3 years. Because it will help society that they are providing expensive services without being properly compensated.

I have a much better idea. Why don't we just take a random 20% of the population, and make them and their kids slaves. This will help society, since we will be able to get expensive services from them without compensating them. The 80% of the population will be much better off.
In fact, why make it random? We don't want to just do a lottery. So we can choose a discrete group of people.
How about all the doctors? No, they'll just stop being doctors.
How about all the engineers? no, they'll stop being engineers
So it should probably be race based, and that way it will also be easier to identify them if they run away. This is a great idea. I'm astounded we haven't thought of this yet. I bet the ABA will be all over it, after I write my student note advocating it.


Wow. Did you just see Hunger Games or something? Worst slippery-slope argument ever.


I'm not making a slippery slope argument. I'm saying that forcing people to work for below market wages is slavery. And then I proceed to make fun that once we're doing slavery, we may as well just say so.
To wit: My problem is not where it will lead, but where it is.

Not a slippery slope- My problem with the affordable care act is not that one day they will make me eat broccoli, but that they will make me buy health insurance. I compare it to broccoli so that you will understand my problem.
Slippery slope- My problem with gay marriage is that I fear the precedent will eventually allow incest marriage. I compare it to incest marriage to show that it will eventually happen. (As it happens, I have more of a problem with gay marriage than with incest marriage, so I would probably argue the other way.)


I hate passing judgment on people I don't know but I'm making an exception. You. I don't like you.


Yes, notice how liberals dislike people for having contrary opinions.

There was a study recently which found that liberals are twice as likely as conservative to "unfriend" someone for their political views.

Talk about creating a culture for healthy discourse.

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AreJay711
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:26 pm

I also think that proposal is stupid. It doesn't amount to the slavery of Africans but forcing people to work for a stipend is kind of similar and is also similar to the ACA individual mandate (forcing participation in a broken market to fix the problems). I wouldn't call it slavery but is way, way outside of the conception of most people of what the gov't should require of people.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TaipeiMort » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:17 pm

ben4847 wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
I'm not making a slippery slope argument. I'm saying that forcing people to work for below market wages is slavery. And then I proceed to make fun that once we're doing slavery, we may as well just say so.
To wit: My problem is not where it will lead, but where it is.

Not a slippery slope- My problem with the affordable care act is not that one day they will make me eat broccoli, but that they will make me buy health insurance. I compare it to broccoli so that you will understand my problem.
Slippery slope- My problem with gay marriage is that I fear the precedent will eventually allow incest marriage. I compare it to incest marriage to show that it will eventually happen. (As it happens, I have more of a problem with gay marriage than with incest marriage, so I would probably argue the other way.)




God this is difficult to believe a person actually thinks.

Lemon difficult.

Trolling?


Really? And I'm thinking about half of America thinks the same way I do. Maybe you should start getting exposed to ideas which disagree with your own.


Really interesting interchange. Shows fundamental flaws in both liberal and conservative discourse. Liberals are closed off to all ideas except those that they or other liberals accept. Conservatives are so ambivalent to the prudence of some political correctness that they will argue for intellectually honest, good ideas and evil ideas and not be able to differentiate them. It is funny that in a way conservatives have become liberal in terms of their support for critical/intellectually honest thought, while liberals have embraced uncritical homogeneity of thought. It is a pity that conservatives can't be more prudent

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whitman
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby whitman » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:56 pm

Some of you are hilarious. An entity requiring individuals who wish to enter a certain profession complete a period of residency through PI work does not amount to slavery. Just as anyone given a choice between becoming a businessman and a doctor might decide that residency requirements are too much of a deterrence and thus choose business, so could all of you recalculate the costs and benefits of pursuing a career in law. In slavery, you can't simply calculate the costs and benefits and decide, nah, I ain't gonna do that. Furthermore, because the costs of attending law school would effectively go up, private firms would likely be forced to raise market pay in order incentivize prospective law students to enter the profession.

This is not an argument in favor of the proposal. Just an argument in favor of truthful dialogue.

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johansantana21
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby johansantana21 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:57 pm

Yeah. Out of every 10 1L I talk to, around 2-3 will talk about how much they want PI. Give me a break bro.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:59 pm

whitman wrote:Some of you are hilarious. An entity requiring individuals who wish to enter a certain profession complete a period of residency through PI work does not amount to slavery. Just as anyone given a choice between becoming a businessman and a doctor might decide that residency requirements are too much of a deterrence and thus choose business, so could all of you recalculate the costs and benefits of pursuing a career in law. In slavery, you can't simply calculate the costs and benefits and decide, nah, I ain't gonna do that. Furthermore, because the costs of attending law school would effectively go up, private firms would likely be forced to raise market pay in order incentivize prospective law students to enter the profession.

This is not an argument in favor of the proposal. Just an argument in favor of truthful dialogue.


That is a good point, and I concede I didn't think it all the way through.

I suppose I was responding to the argument that it should be done to benefit the public, unlike medical residency which is done because MD's simply don't know enough yet. My point was that imposing mandatory 3 years of public service on people, as a prerequisite to practicing their chosen profession seems very unfair.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:11 pm

ben4847 wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
I have more of a problem with gay marriage than with incest marriage, so I would probably argue the other way.)




God this is difficult to believe a person actually thinks.

Lemon difficult.

Trolling?


Really? And I'm thinking about half of America thinks the same way I do. Maybe you should start getting exposed to ideas which disagree with your own.




Not half of America beliefs that crazy mess yo. :lol: Holy Pete. I'll stop feeding the troll now. Perhaps it doesn't know it's a troll.


I wouldn't call it slavery


Yeah, I pretty much reserve the term slavery for situations where people are forced to work for no or little money and they have no way out. Not something they signed up for knowing the requirements in advance and being able to freely leave if they choose to. I like some of the proposal in theory, but definitely see the downsides.
Last edited by TIKITEMBO on Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hjones33
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Hjones33 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:12 pm

ben4847 wrote:
Yes, notice how liberals dislike people for having contrary opinions.

There was a study recently which found that liberals are twice as likely as conservative to "unfriend" someone for their political views.

Talk about creating a culture for healthy discourse.



Lol. So much to say to that comment, but yet I hope most people get the irony in that segment.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:27 pm

Hjones33 wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
Yes, notice how liberals dislike people for having contrary opinions.

There was a study recently which found that liberals are twice as likely as conservative to "unfriend" someone for their political views.

Talk about creating a culture for healthy discourse.



Lol. So much to say to that comment, but yet I hope most people get the irony in that segment.


So much to say? Say.

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PDaddy
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby PDaddy » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:40 am

sunynp wrote:
(1) too much of a PI background can sink you in biglaw interviews. There are not enough people or desks to supervise all the new grads doing their work. Law isn't like hospitals which are large organizations already set up to train people.

(2) Why should PI groups with the least resources be the people training new associates?


(1') Shouldn't we wonder why that is? The best lawyers care about humanity and carry that empathy into each and every endeavor. You would think that corporations and major firms would appreciate this quality in attorneys. It would help them prepare better for challenges because they would see all sides of issues. Even when ripping off the public or another company, that trait can be helpful, no? One would be much better at predicting potential obstacles or objections to land use, destruction of parks, etc. Many of the skills required to succeed in PI would make a corporate lawyer much better at his craft, and my proposal only involves 2-3 years post-grad, not am lifetime. PI is probably the best training a lawyer can receive for all types of law.

(2')To answer your question about training, law firms complain that attorneys have no idea of how to organize their day or function within a corporate law environment when they arrive. PI organizations can train attorneys because they would provide legal aid to underserved groups of prople. There's more work to be done, and the issues new attorneys would confront do not typically involve multimillion-dollar issues. They would cut their teeth and make less expensive mistakes before entering the corporate world.

Besides that, your comments are not on-point: we are discussing what ought to be, not the current state of affairs.

Napt
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Napt » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:48 am

PDaddy wrote:
sunynp wrote:
(1) too much of a PI background can sink you in biglaw interviews. There are not enough people or desks to supervise all the new grads doing their work. Law isn't like hospitals which are large organizations already set up to train people.

(2) Why should PI groups with the least resources be the people training new associates?


(1') Shouldn't we wonder why that is? The best lawyers care about humanity and carry that empathy into each and every endeavor. You would think that corporations and major firms would appreciate this quality in attorneys. It would help them prepare better for challenges because they would see all sides of issues. Even when ripping off the public or another company, that trait can be helpful, no? One would be much better at predicting potential obstacles or objections to land use, destruction of parks, etc. Many of the skills required to succeed in PI would make a corporate lawyer much better at his craft, and my proposal only involves 2-3 years post-grad, not am lifetime. PI is probably the best training a lawyer can receive for all types of law.

(2')To answer your question about training, law firms complain that attorneys have no idea of how to organize their day or function within a corporate law environment when they arrive. PI organizations can train attorneys because they would provide legal aid to underserved groups of prople. There's more work to be done, and the issues new attorneys would confront do not typically involve multimillion-dollar issues. They would cut their teeth and make less expensive mistakes before entering the corporate world.

Besides that, your comments are not on-point: we are discussing what ought to be, not the current state of affairs.

-- (Obama Voter)

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Tom Joad
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Tom Joad » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:52 am

Napt wrote:-- (Obama Voter)

cracks me up every time.

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PDaddy
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby PDaddy » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:56 am

HWS08 wrote:
Are you going to suspend my loan payments AND stop them from accruing interest during those 2-3 years while I'm making $35K a year (or whatever PI jobs pay)?

Response: Yes

For that matter, where are these courts and PI organizations going to get the money to fund this?

Response: How do government officials waste money on wars?

From speaking with my friends who want to do PI, it seems like they don't have enough money to hire people who actually want to do PI as it is.

Response: Your sample is unrepresentative, which renders your logic flawed.

Even if you do get funding and you do suspend the program, that means I'm going to earn about $250K to $375K less during my lifetime than I would have if I went right to work at a traditional firm (knock on wood) and did some pro bono work on the side.

Response: Isn't that a potential downfall of the current system, which asks inexperienced lawyers to simply sink or swim without having a clue as to what they're getting into?

That's a big deal, especially if you're a student who has a family to support.

Response: Agreed.

You mentioned weeding out "the suckers who don't really want to be lawyers"...what about those of us who do want to be lawyers but just have 0 interest in doing PI work?

Response: There's no such person, and that is the point. If you are in the field simply for the money, and never want to give anything back to society, you are nothing more than a parasite who doesn't belong in the field. Providing care to those who need it most is the core foundation of the legal and medical professions. We have gotten away from that. What if all doctors simply wanted to help the rich, and you, upon graduating from law school, need medical care but cannot afford it? Do you not deserve help? A lawyer is first and above all else a public servant, and PI work prepares one for any other type of law.

I have no interest in it, and I have done a decent amount of volunteer work in the past, including two years for an AmeriCorps program.

Response: A nice start, but that's childs play! Try defending an indigent grandmother about to lose her home through no fault of her own, or a wrongfully convicted felon who was framed by the police...then come and talk to me.

I think compulsory volunteer work programs can also do a disservice to organizations, because then volunteer work is seen (at least by some people) as something you "have" to do rather than as something you should want to do.

Response: I suppose, then, that medical residents do not appreciate the valuable experience they're getting and the advantage it gives them in their careers...how it reduces the likelihood that they will lose lives or be sued during their careers. Nobody is talking about slave labor here. I would suggest generous loan deferments and/or forgiveness (depending), a housing and transportation stipend, a guaranteed $65K salary, and guaranteed medical benefits paid for by the government. If we could afford Iraq and Afghanistan, our government can afford it.
Last edited by PDaddy on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby PDaddy » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:17 am

ben4847 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
PDaddy wrote:I think the ABA should require all law school graduates to give 2-3 years of supervised P.I. service before they can work in firms. Under such a protocol, students could still sit for the bar but complete a required "residency" before being allowed to practice - as is the case with the two-year minimum residency requirement imposed on med school graduates.

For once, people who traditionally lack access to legal representation and the courts would have it, firms would not need to spend as much time training lawyers, and the process would weed out the suckers who don't really want to be lawyers.

Students who choose to work in underserved geographic areas (such as rural Arkansas, Compton or Houston's 3rd Ward) could be given special stipends or bonuses paid by the government upon completion. Veterans, reserves, graduates over the age of 40, and parents and spouses caring for relatives with special needs (i.e. disabled, terminally ill, autistic, etc.) could have their time shortened to one year or, in some cases, be exempt.


:roll:


Again, you want to force law students to work at a low paying job for 3 years. Because it will help society that they are providing expensive services without being properly compensated.

I have a much better idea. Why don't we just take a random 20% of the population, and make them and their kids slaves. This will help society, since we will be able to get expensive services from them without compensating them. The 80% of the population will be much better off.
In fact, why make it random? We don't want to just do a lottery. So we can choose a discrete group of people.
How about all the doctors? No, they'll just stop being doctors.
How about all the engineers? no, they'll stop being engineers
So it should probably be race based, and that way it will also be easier to identify them if they run away. This is a great idea. I'm astounded we haven't thought of this yet. I bet the ABA will be all over it, after I write my student note advocating it.


Uh..."slaves"? Too far... :roll: And who said anything about "low-paying"? Read my posts...I think a housing and transportation stipend, partial or full loan forgiveness, $65K in guaranteed salary, and medical benefits for two years right out of law school is plenty.

No law grad would have to worry about getting a job, and the playing field would be leveled so that the school you attended wouldn't matter quite as much. It would be mainly about real-world performance, a chance for everyone to prove himself as a working lawyer and not just a law student who can get a high LSAT and take written exams.
Last edited by PDaddy on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby PDaddy » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:19 am

Kimberly wrote:
...the upsides are multifold. For society, we all benefit from a large perpetual cohort of physicians to care for them in hospitals and clinics throughout the country. For practices, who don't have to pay to train physicians, which would cost a ton and the "education" would not be standardized to ensure comprehensive training.

After all, if you were to undergo a residency-type training program as a newly minted lawyer, you would likely learn a TON because the educational programs would be designed to give you a breadth of experiences and likely give you MUCH more supervised autonomy than many newly minted lawyers currently get. And, thus, trainees also benefit from the residency training despite the financial downsides.

I can't imagine how many diagnoses I would have missed or screwed up without 3 years of residency training. Sure, I would have started making more money from the get-go but my confidence would have been much lower and the pressure would have been much higher. Of course, there are things about medicine that are not similar to law... like, you can kill someone with a poor decision in medicine. But, you can really screw up someone's life in the law with a poor decision... so, it still matters. I love the above proposal!

Though, I can tell you , I would NOT be going back to law school right now if I knew I would have to go through another EFFING residency program afterward! That is FOR SURE! So, I am thankful the above proposal will not apply to me.


Glad somebody around here besides me can think clearly. :wink:

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sunynp
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby sunynp » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:34 am

Why are all these threads devolving into a comparison of law and medicine? Is this a one-upsmanship thing?

kingofspain
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby kingofspain » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:59 am

TaipeiMort wrote:Really interesting interchange. Shows fundamental flaws in both liberal and conservative discourse. Liberals are closed off to all ideas except those that they or other liberals accept. Conservatives are so ambivalent to the prudence of some political correctness that they will argue for intellectually honest, good ideas and evil ideas and not be able to differentiate them. It is funny that in a way conservatives have become liberal in terms of their support for critical/intellectually honest thought, while liberals have embraced uncritical homogeneity of thought. It is a pity that conservatives can't be more prudent
Yes, an excess of intellectual honesty is got John Derbyshire fired a few days ago, right? "I'm not racist. I'm just telling it like it is!!"

Also, this: http://psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/03/16/0146167212439213.abstract?rss=1

AND FINALLY: the "fundamental flaw" of moderate political discourse is that it's entirely vacuous but dresses up its lack of principles in a pretense of intellectual superiority.

UGHHH this thread makes me want to vomit kinda / has strengthened my commitment to public interest work.

ETA:
TaipeiMort wrote:I just dont think PI 0Ls are rational. They don't realize how crappy PI is to work in, and how much personal sacrifice it will require of them (eg. not being able to support a family, working with under qualified and bad people daily, not being appreciated and marginalized by many, having a horrible stigma with your work product, uneven training, and closing off all real other opportunities like government and firm work for an indeterminate chance at making a difference.
I just don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. This MAYBE describes the life of a public defender (though the public defenders I know in Philly actually quite like their jobs), but PI consists of way more than that.

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annet
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby annet » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:02 pm

Darnit TLS, way to squash my dreams at every turn. But, erm, thanks for the warning. I don't even work for a "real" non-profit right now (501c6 not c3) and there are times when it's really difficult to not have resources/budget/etc.

I'll dig through the legal employment forum, too. The perspective is appreciated.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:40 pm

Some people say they want to do PI and then bail on it. Some people say they want to do PI and stick with it, despite going to good schools and having good grades. I personally know dozens of people in each camp. It's hard and thankless work, working with poor clients poses a whole host of challenges, there is a serious lack of stability/job security these days, and it's difficult to get the jobs in the first place. None of this means nobody will choose to do these jobs. I too am skeptical when many people, especially K-JD folks, claim they have ALWAYS WANTED TO BE PUBLIC DEFENDERS and wonder how they'll handle working in a shithole of an office for ungrateful clients who are not always victims of their circumstances and are often guilty. That doesn't mean nobody is aware of and willing to make the sacrifices. There are people who choose to be social workers, which is a decision I think many of you would have difficulty fitting into a "rational" worldview, but there it is, regardless.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a cynical fuck, but TLS is really overboard sometimes.

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Dany
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Dany » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:45 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:God this is difficult to believe a person actually thinks.

Lemon difficult.

:lol:

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:33 pm

Dany wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:God this is difficult to believe a person actually thinks.

Lemon difficult.

:lol:



Oh good! Thought that might have gone unnoticed. :wink:

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20160810
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby 20160810 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:35 pm

You guys are nuts. I would love a cool PI gig, they're just hard to find.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:52 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:
Dany wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:God this is difficult to believe a person actually thinks.

Lemon difficult.

:lol:



Oh good! Thought that might have gone unnoticed. :wink:


What does "lemon difficult" mean?




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