Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

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sundance95
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby sundance95 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:42 pm

BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:
PDaddy wrote:I think the ABA should require all law school graduates to give 2-3 years of supervised P.I. service before they can work in firms. Under such a protocol, students could still sit for the bar but complete a required "residency" before being allowed to practice - as is the case with the two-year minimum residency requirement imposed on med school graduates.

For once, people who traditionally lack access to legal representation and the courts would have it, firms would not need to spend as much time training lawyers, and the process would weed out the suckers who don't really want to be lawyers.

Students who choose to work in underserved geographic areas (such as rural Arkansas, Compton or Houston's 3rd Ward) could be given special stipends or bonuses paid by the government upon completion. Veterans, reserves, graduates over the age of 40, and parents and spouses caring for relatives with special needs (i.e. disabled, terminally ill, autistic, etc.) could have their time shortened to one year or, in some cases, be exempt.


Fuck. This.

+1000. This "fixes" the 'not prepared to practice problem' by financially burdening the group least able to bear it, namely, highly indebted law students, rather than those who could easily bear it, namely, law schools and firms. Under this scheme, firms get to not pay for associate training that they will profit from, and law schools get to continue underpreparing their students for actual practice while charging astronomical tuition, while law students are forced to let their interest accrue and capitalize while eating ramen. No thanks.

Curious1
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Curious1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:42 pm

flem wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
Pray tell.


All of the money is in corporate defense for big law firms. For example(s):

Environmental law: how to circumvent rules to dump toxic sludge in someone's backyard.

Employment law: how to circumvent the ADA and fire people based on disability because they're unproductive.

Intellectual property litigation: defending company A from a suit filed by company B alleging that they both have ownership of a cancer drug that would help millions of people, but they would rather litigate for future profit than release it to the public. Or two software companies expend millions of dollars litigating over who has rights to some obscure font that no one uses.

This isn't exactly god's work, bro. It's nasty, brutal, spiteful and petty. Some wide-eyed fart smelling 1L who wants to help people is going to be real surprised at what firm work is actually like.


I never said the work was morally praiseworthy (under whatever definition). I just said it was important. Without law firms, how WOULD two drug companies resolve patent issues? And if those important issues aren't resolved efficiently, it's even worse for the millions of people waiting for the drug.

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flem
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby flem » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:43 pm

Curious1 wrote:
I never said the work was morally praiseworthy (under whatever definition). I just said it was important. Without law firms, how WOULD two drug companies resolve patent issues? And if those important issues aren't resolved efficiently, it's even worse for the millions of people waiting for the drug.


Bruh, if you can't see why that work would be considered "selling out" to public interest types, I don't know what to tell you.

Curious1
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Curious1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:43 pm

flem wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
I never said the work was morally praiseworthy (under whatever definition). I just said it was important. Without law firms, how WOULD two drug companies resolve patent issues? And if those important issues aren't resolved efficiently, it's even worse for the millions of people waiting for the drug.


Bruh, if you can't see why that work would be considered "selling out" to public interest types, I don't know what to tell you.


I can't. Guess that means I'm not a public interest type.

rad lulz
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:46 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:47 pm

IAFG wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:OL public interest person here.

I guarantee you will do OCI in 2013.



If there are government agencies then sure. I think sometimes, people define PI as only working with "the poors". I've got direct service and government work experience (related to law and helping the poor with economic mobilization), so both are open. If we're talking just firms that don't have some type of PI shtick though, absolutely not. I'd cut off my hands first. PLSF/IBR make it so I can have that freedom. If those things didn't exist, then I'd either not be able to do law school, or yes, I'd have to suck it up and not be so high and mighty. Even if I can't find work immediately, most of my loans are and will be government which have nice deferment periods for economic hardship. I've never had a problem finding work though as networking is my thing (besides being humble of course 8) ) and I have a great resume to show for it which should help. Grades are my biggest concern at this point, but that's most people.

Oh my goodness, so much facepalm.

You want to work for a gov't agency? Guess what, not hiring out of law school. Gotta go to the big firm thing first, and the bigger, the more prestigious, the more sweatshop-y, the better your chances at getting that. Sure, a few come to OCI and do the song-and-dance and take some 2Ls, but then they're not going to be able to give you a post-grad offer. And even if they could, they'd rather take Miss Sellout who is just coming off 3 years at SullCrom.

But, you know that PI jobs are hard to come by, so if you don't get one, you'll "suck it up" and do firm work? Oooookay. Except by the time you find out you didn't get the PI job of your dreams, it's too late. The firm job ship has sailed, as has it's exit options into some really amazing government and public interest work. But you'll have realized this all before OCI season comes around. You'll realize that even with your resume, and whatever grades you get, a paying PI job is far from guaranteed.

And that is how PI people with any sort of self-preservation instinct end up selling out and going to firms.


Woah, there. You misread or misunderstood what I was saying. I said if PLSF/IBR didn't exist I'd be screwed. I would be more in a place where I'd have to consider firm work and I have enough foresight to know I'd need to have done summer work in firm jobs or gov't job that would be relevant to a firm. I'm not in a position of having to make that position though because these programs exist. So, there's no sucking it up for me and I would probably be royally screwed if I wanted firm work that wasn't PI oriented and came in with a resume of only PI. They'd see me running for the door the second I got my loans paid and never hire me.

And a gov't agency is one option. I'd be happy working at a non-profit as well. Maybe then after a few years I could get me that gubmit job. I know these jobs are difficult to land, but from what I've heard and seen in my experience working/volunteering with those places, they're most open to when you have past experience showing your dedication which is what I have and what I will continue to build. Big law people have their crazy dreams that must be tempered with reality and though I have PI aspirations, I've done what I can to know/plan for what I'm in for.

I think we're pretty much on the same page here about naive OL's saying they want PI. I'm not going to say I know everything, but I've done a lot of research and have a lot of real work PI experience compared to those who will be competing for the same jobs. I'm not worried. You can take your hand off your face now 8)
Last edited by TIKITEMBO on Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Samara
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Samara » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:47 pm

Curious1 wrote:You seem to think companies and rich people are completely detached from the rest of society, as if companies that get rich don't hire more workers, but that's another issue.

QFbeingasupply-sider

Sorry you can't vote for Reagan, bro.

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flem
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby flem » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:49 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:
Woah, there. You misread or misunderstood what I was saying. I said if PLSF/IBR didn't exist I'd be screwed. I would be more in a place where I'd have to consider firm work and I have enough foresight to know I'd need to have done summer work in firm jobs or gov't job that would be relevant to a firm. I'm not in a position of having to make that position though because these programs exist. So, there's no sucking it up for me and I would probably be royally screwed if I wanted firm work that wasn't PI oriented and came in with a resume of only PI. They'd see me running for the door the second I got my loans paid and never hire me.

And a gov't agency is one option. I'd be happy working at a non-profit as well. Maybe then after a few years I could get me that gubmit job. I know these jobs are difficult to land, but from what I've heard and seen in my experience working/volunteering with those places, they're most open to when you have past experience showing your dedication which is what I have and what I will continue to build.

I think we're pretty much on the same page here about naive OL's saying they want PI. I'm not going to say I know everything, but I've done a lot of research and have a lot of real work PI experience compared to those who will be competing for the same jobs. I'm not worried. You can take your hand off your face now 8)


I might be wrong, but I'd be willing to be $100 you'd run, not walk, to Wachtell if you somehow finished top 5-10% your first year.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:50 pm

flem wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:
Woah, there. You misread or misunderstood what I was saying. I said if PLSF/IBR didn't exist I'd be screwed. I would be more in a place where I'd have to consider firm work and I have enough foresight to know I'd need to have done summer work in firm jobs or gov't job that would be relevant to a firm. I'm not in a position of having to make that position though because these programs exist. So, there's no sucking it up for me and I would probably be royally screwed if I wanted firm work that wasn't PI oriented and came in with a resume of only PI. They'd see me running for the door the second I got my loans paid and never hire me.

And a gov't agency is one option. I'd be happy working at a non-profit as well. Maybe then after a few years I could get me that gubmit job. I know these jobs are difficult to land, but from what I've heard and seen in my experience working/volunteering with those places, they're most open to when you have past experience showing your dedication which is what I have and what I will continue to build.

I think we're pretty much on the same page here about naive OL's saying they want PI. I'm not going to say I know everything, but I've done a lot of research and have a lot of real work PI experience compared to those who will be competing for the same jobs. I'm not worried. You can take your hand off your face now 8)


I might be wrong, but I'd be willing to be $100 you'd run, not walk, to Wachtell if you somehow finished top 5-10% your first year.


I believe she's going to a lower T-1 so as not to have this problem :D

09042014
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:50 pm

PI people are just stealing jobs from TTT students.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:51 pm

flem wrote:
I might be wrong, but I'd be willing to be $100 you'd run, not walk, to Wachtell if you somehow finished top 5-10% your first year.


For the sake of your wallet friend, I'm glad that's a pretty low number. :)


I believe she's going to a lower T-1 so as not to have this problem


And yeah this too. Not that I have stellar numbers. I'll be paying sticker wherever I squeek into. But again, debt vanishing after 10 years and payments based on your income make that manageable. I think my spouse and I will probably file separately so I won't be the sole income. I know we'd lose money on taxes, but I'd rather do that then have higher monthly payments.
Last edited by TIKITEMBO on Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Curious1
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Curious1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:54 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:
flem wrote:
I might be wrong, but I'd be willing to be $100 you'd run, not walk, to Wachtell if you somehow finished top 5-10% your first year.


For the sake of your wallet friend, I'm glad that's a pretty low number. :)


Hey if you're serious about it, more power to you. I really do admire selfless people who want to dedicate their lives helping others. Plus, less competition for me.

I hope you do splendidly. (no sarcasm)

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PutSumGravyOnIt
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby PutSumGravyOnIt » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:58 pm

:roll:[/quote]

Again, you want to force law students to work at a low paying job for 3 years. Because it will help society that they are providing expensive services without being properly compensated.

I have a much better idea. Why don't we just take a random 20% of the population, and make them and their kids slaves. This will help society, since we will be able to get expensive services from them without compensating them. The 80% of the population will be much better off.
In fact, why make it random? We don't want to just do a lottery. So we can choose a discrete group of people.
How about all the doctors? No, they'll just stop being doctors.
How about all the engineers? no, they'll stop being engineers
So it should probably be race based, and that way it will also be easier to identify them if they run away. This is a great idea. I'm astounded we haven't thought of this yet. I bet the ABA will be all over it, after I write my student note advocating it.[/quote]

Wow. Did you just see Hunger Games or something? Worst slippery-slope argument ever.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:01 pm

Curious1 wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:
flem wrote:
I might be wrong, but I'd be willing to be $100 you'd run, not walk, to Wachtell if you somehow finished top 5-10% your first year.


For the sake of your wallet friend, I'm glad that's a pretty low number. :)


Hey if you're serious about it, more power to you. I really do admire selfless people who want to dedicate their lives helping others. Plus, less competition for me.

I hope you do splendidly. (no sarcasm)



Thanks :D I do totally get the "naive PI diehards are insanely annoying" thing though and I think there are a lot of people who are in over their heads and have no idea what they're talking about. So, I hope this thread goes onward. I'm just not worried for me. Plenty of others to worry for though, absolutely.

And yes, less competition for you too!

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turkishswat
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby turkishswat » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:07 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:Thanks :D I do totally get the "naive PI diehards are insanely annoying" thing though and I think there are a lot of people who are in over their heads and have no idea what they're talking about. So, I hope this thread goes onward. I'm just not worried for me. Plenty of others to worry for though, absolutely.

And yes, less competition for you too!


I think this is the definition of "special little snowflake."

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:11 pm

turkishswat wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:Thanks :D I do totally get the "naive PI diehards are insanely annoying" thing though and I think there are a lot of people who are in over their heads and have no idea what they're talking about. So, I hope this thread goes onward. I'm just not worried for me. Plenty of others to worry for though, absolutely.

And yes, less competition for you too!


I think this is the definition of "special little snowflake."



I AM THE SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!!! Ha...sorry...j/k

No, it's more that I've tried to prepare myself for what's ahead of me and as I outlined earlier, I don't feel I have a greater reason to worry than anyone else.

HTH

juliachild-ish
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby juliachild-ish » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:32 pm

1L here. Went in knowing I wanted to do PI, still convinced I want to do PI, just booked a vacation for during OCI (pretty awesome to have that extra long summer break). But I also already worked at a BigLaw firm for a while before going to law school, and also already worked in the PI field. So not all 0Ls are totally deluded, and not all 0Ls change their mind (especially at, say, YSH, where graduates at least have a fighting chance of getting decent PI jobs).

But I think the point is well taken that choosing a school based on a career goal when you've had no exposure to that career field is a silly idea, since you'll probably end up changing your mind. And outside of the very top schools you won't like the kind of PI jobs (if any) that you can get, plus you won't have LRAP to help with loans. And, let's face it, statistically the vast majority of law school graduates work at firms, so you have to accept that almost inevitably that will be your fate.

PI shouldn't be your only factor in choosing a school. But it could be a factor. Now, significant scholarship money is also a factor, and one that should probably outweigh any career preference (as in your initial example about NYU and UofC with $$$). But if money weren't an issue and a person chose NYU over Chicago or Columbia because of PI preference, I don't think that would be a horrible decision.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TaipeiMort » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:34 pm

I just dont think PI 0Ls are rational. They don't realize how crappy PI is to work in, and how much personal sacrifice it will require of them (eg. not being able to support a family, working with under qualified and bad people daily, not being appreciated and marginalized by many, having a horrible stigma with your work product, uneven training, and closing off all real other opportunities like government and firm work for an indeterminate chance at making a difference. It is really like the 5-star football recruit who decides to play local JUCO instead of Florida or Bama because he thinks his junior girlfriend might stay with him... and most of the time she leaves for real college (and he can't transfer).

charliep
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby charliep » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:53 pm

you all remind me of "ken wins" from breaking bad right now.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:08 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:

Again, you want to force law students to work at a low paying job for 3 years. Because it will help society that they are providing expensive services without being properly compensated.

I have a much better idea. Why don't we just take a random 20% of the population, and make them and their kids slaves. This will help society, since we will be able to get expensive services from them without compensating them. The 80% of the population will be much better off.
In fact, why make it random? We don't want to just do a lottery. So we can choose a discrete group of people.
How about all the doctors? No, they'll just stop being doctors.
How about all the engineers? no, they'll stop being engineers
So it should probably be race based, and that way it will also be easier to identify them if they run away. This is a great idea. I'm astounded we haven't thought of this yet. I bet the ABA will be all over it, after I write my student note advocating it.


Wow. Did you just see Hunger Games or something? Worst slippery-slope argument ever.


I'm not making a slippery slope argument. I'm saying that forcing people to work for below market wages is slavery. And then I proceed to make fun that once we're doing slavery, we may as well just say so.
To wit: My problem is not where it will lead, but where it is.

Not a slippery slope- My problem with the affordable care act is not that one day they will make me eat broccoli, but that they will make me buy health insurance. I compare it to broccoli so that you will understand my problem.
Slippery slope- My problem with gay marriage is that I fear the precedent will eventually allow incest marriage. I compare it to incest marriage to show that it will eventually happen. (As it happens, I have more of a problem with gay marriage than with incest marriage, so I would probably argue the other way.)

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Indifferent
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Indifferent » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:10 pm

So much mad.

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kapital98
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby kapital98 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:10 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:I just dont think PI 0Ls are rational. They don't realize how crappy PI is to work in, and how much personal sacrifice it will require of them (eg. not being able to support a family, working with under qualified and bad people daily, not being appreciated and marginalized by many, having a horrible stigma with your work product, uneven training, and closing off all real other opportunities like government and firm work for an indeterminate chance at making a difference. It is really like the 5-star football recruit who decides to play local JUCO instead of Florida or Bama because he thinks his junior girlfriend might stay with him... and most of the time she leaves for real college (and he can't transfer).


:lol: :lol: :lol:

USAIRS
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby USAIRS » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:56 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:I just dont think PI 0Ls are rational. They don't realize how crappy PI is to work in, and how much personal sacrifice it will require of them (eg. not being able to support a family, working with under qualified and bad people daily, not being appreciated and marginalized by many, having a horrible stigma with your work product, uneven training, and closing off all real other opportunities like government and firm work for an indeterminate chance at making a difference. It is really like the 5-star football recruit who decides to play local JUCO instead of Florida or Bama because he thinks his junior girlfriend might stay with him... and most of the time she leaves for real college (and he can't transfer).


To be fair, law school applicants don't know anything about what any legal career actually entails. A lot of decisions in choosing law schools seem irrational insofar as they overvalue slight differences in law school job placement and place a lot of emphasis on keeping options open that they are actually very unlikely to exploit, such as politics, public interest (government aside), academia, and international opportunities. Unfortunately, this carries on into law school because nothing really changes during your first year. People, even if they have some vague interest in PI, by-and-large go for big firms at the beginning of the second year because they offer some job security very early on and you don't seem to forfeit any options down the road. This sort of "keep the most options open" method secretly closes a bunch of doors, though, whether because of debt or opportunity cost. At the end of the day, most employers are not impressed by your ability to keep a lot of doors open. If you weren't ready to fully commit to academia or prosecution or PI by the end of your first year of law school, you are going to be out-competed by those who took that leap, focused academically, and started building their CVs or resumes long before you did.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby prosen5808 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:58 pm

ben4847 wrote:
PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:

Again, you want to force law students to work at a low paying job for 3 years. Because it will help society that they are providing expensive services without being properly compensated.

I have a much better idea. Why don't we just take a random 20% of the population, and make them and their kids slaves. This will help society, since we will be able to get expensive services from them without compensating them. The 80% of the population will be much better off.
In fact, why make it random? We don't want to just do a lottery. So we can choose a discrete group of people.
How about all the doctors? No, they'll just stop being doctors.
How about all the engineers? no, they'll stop being engineers
So it should probably be race based, and that way it will also be easier to identify them if they run away. This is a great idea. I'm astounded we haven't thought of this yet. I bet the ABA will be all over it, after I write my student note advocating it.


Wow. Did you just see Hunger Games or something? Worst slippery-slope argument ever.


I'm not making a slippery slope argument. I'm saying that forcing people to work for below market wages is slavery. And then I proceed to make fun that once we're doing slavery, we may as well just say so.
To wit: My problem is not where it will lead, but where it is.

Not a slippery slope- My problem with the affordable care act is not that one day they will make me eat broccoli, but that they will make me buy health insurance. I compare it to broccoli so that you will understand my problem.
Slippery slope- My problem with gay marriage is that I fear the precedent will eventually allow incest marriage. I compare it to incest marriage to show that it will eventually happen. (As it happens, I have more of a problem with gay marriage than with incest marriage, so I would probably argue the other way.)


I hate passing judgment on people I don't know but I'm making an exception. You. I don't like you.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:28 pm

ben4847 wrote:
I'm not making a slippery slope argument. I'm saying that forcing people to work for below market wages is slavery. And then I proceed to make fun that once we're doing slavery, we may as well just say so.
To wit: My problem is not where it will lead, but where it is.

Not a slippery slope- My problem with the affordable care act is not that one day they will make me eat broccoli, but that they will make me buy health insurance. I compare it to broccoli so that you will understand my problem.
Slippery slope- My problem with gay marriage is that I fear the precedent will eventually allow incest marriage. I compare it to incest marriage to show that it will eventually happen. (As it happens, I have more of a problem with gay marriage than with incest marriage, so I would probably argue the other way.)




God this is difficult to believe a person actually thinks.

Lemon difficult.

Trolling?




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