Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

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Always Credited
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Always Credited » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:22 am

ben4847 wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Unless the person has a concrete goals and displays true, dedicated intentions to do it, usually by past actions.

It's silly because at least 20% of the threads have some stupid 0L saying, "well I'm thinking PI" and then a bunch of idiots say take NYU over U of C with $$ because of an IBR that the person will fucking use. Why? Because they'll do OCI like everyone else.


I didn't claim I wanted PI, but I split firm, PI 1L summer and can see why people would claim to want PI and then switch after doing it-- it is really crappy, hard, thankless work. I don't think any 1Ls, having done even the worst Big law (large M&A Deals or patent prosecution) and the best PI would choose PI. Big law may not be as interesting as death penalty defense, but PI leaves you with a scraping the bottom of the barrel feel after your indigent client makes some classless remark about your efforts [b]or you have to deal with some self righteous local prosecutor who reminds you of the meat head who pantsed you in 8th grade]/b]. Peoplevwho actually want PI and follow through with it are amazing people. Everyone else should. Try it and then soapbox about it.


Or you could be the self righteous local prosecutor, and pants people.


I will be that meat head prosecutor; and yes, I will make little bitches cry.

Relevance to thread: came to school to do PI, grades good enough for big lawl, didn't do OCI, still doing PI.


Bro, advance in my direction.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:28 am

Always Credited wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Unless the person has a concrete goals and displays true, dedicated intentions to do it, usually by past actions.

It's silly because at least 20% of the threads have some stupid 0L saying, "well I'm thinking PI" and then a bunch of idiots say take NYU over U of C with $$ because of an IBR that the person will fucking use. Why? Because they'll do OCI like everyone else.


I didn't claim I wanted PI, but I split firm, PI 1L summer and can see why people would claim to want PI and then switch after doing it-- it is really crappy, hard, thankless work. I don't think any 1Ls, having done even the worst Big law (large M&A Deals or patent prosecution) and the best PI would choose PI. Big law may not be as interesting as death penalty defense, but PI leaves you with a scraping the bottom of the barrel feel after your indigent client makes some classless remark about your efforts [b]or you have to deal with some self righteous local prosecutor who reminds you of the meat head who pantsed you in 8th grade]/b]. Peoplevwho actually want PI and follow through with it are amazing people. Everyone else should. Try it and then soapbox about it.


Or you could be the self righteous local prosecutor, and pants people.


I will be that meat head prosecutor; and yes, I will make little bitches cry.

Relevance to thread: came to school to do PI, grades good enough for big lawl, didn't do OCI, still doing PI.


Bro, advance in my direction.


I will be a lunatic juror, and I will make you cry.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby EdgarWinter » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:39 am

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Last edited by EdgarWinter on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Always Credited » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:43 am

ben4847 wrote:I will be a lunatic juror, and I will make you cry.



peremptory challenges babe

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:50 am

Always Credited wrote:
ben4847 wrote:I will be a lunatic juror, and I will make you cry.



peremptory challenges babe


I had jury duty once, and without saying anything untrue, I got myself so peremptorily challenged.

I am peremptorily challenged. Do you think I can get accommodation on the LSAT?

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby shoeshine » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:14 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:OL public interest person here.

I guarantee you will do OCI in 2013.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby albusdumbledore » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:21 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
Again, you want to force law students to work at a low paying job for 3 years. Because it will help society that they are providing expensive services without being properly compensated.

Lol. Just because lawyers charge a lot doesn't make the services inherently expensive.


Do you have any idea how expensive Westlaw/Lexis actually are?

Also, it is appropriate to consider the cost of training when considering the cost of providing the service. 3 years of professional school (opportunity cost + tuition + interest) amortized over a career is still a significant cost. Add in CLEs, etc.

The fact that many lawyers are low-paid does not mean that the services they are providing are not "inherently expensive"; it means either (i) the lawyer isn't "breaking even" when he provides that service; or (ii) the psychic benefits of "doing good" are assigned a certain value that makes up for the financial difference. If you force people to do pro bono, the psychic benefit = near $0.

The fact that some states have mandatory pro bono requirements is already ridiculous. 3 years? lol.

First, I didn't make a comment either way as to whether the mandatory pro bono stuff would be good or bad so I won't address any of that. Second, telling me that Westlaw/Lexis is expensive once again says nothing about bottom line cost. It might say something about Westlaw/Lexis's margins, but says little about end cost. This isn't exactly neurosurgery or even dentistry for that matter. Startup and actual service costs are nowhere near other professional jobs. Also, let me know next time you bill a client for "opportunity cost".

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:29 pm

shoeshine wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:OL public interest person here.

I guarantee you will do OCI in 2013.



If there are government agencies then sure. I think sometimes, people define PI as only working with "the poors". I've got direct service and government work experience (related to law and helping the poor with economic mobilization), so both are open. If we're talking just firms that don't have some type of PI shtick though, absolutely not. I'd cut off my hands first. PLSF/IBR make it so I can have that freedom. If those things didn't exist, then I'd either not be able to do law school, or yes, I'd have to suck it up and not be so high and mighty. Even if I can't find work immediately, most of my loans are and will be government which have nice deferment periods for economic hardship. I've never had a problem finding work though as networking is my thing (besides being humble of course 8) ) and I have a great resume to show for it which should help. Grades are my biggest concern at this point, but that's most people.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:30 pm

PDaddy wrote:I think the ABA should require all law school graduates to give 2-3 years of supervised P.I. service before they can work in firms. Under such a protocol, students could still sit for the bar but complete a required "residency" before being allowed to practice - as is the case with the two-year minimum residency requirement imposed on med school graduates.

For once, people who traditionally lack access to legal representation and the courts would have it, firms would not need to spend as much time training lawyers, and the process would weed out the suckers who don't really want to be lawyers.

Students who choose to work in underserved geographic areas (such as rural Arkansas, Compton or Houston's 3rd Ward) could be given special stipends or bonuses paid by the government upon completion. Veterans, reserves, graduates over the age of 40, and parents and spouses caring for relatives with special needs (i.e. disabled, terminally ill, autistic, etc.) could have their time shortened to one year or, in some cases, be exempt.


Fuck. This.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:34 pm

albusdumbledore wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
Again, you want to force law students to work at a low paying job for 3 years. Because it will help society that they are providing expensive services without being properly compensated.

Lol. Just because lawyers charge a lot doesn't make the services inherently expensive.


Do you have any idea how expensive Westlaw/Lexis actually are?

Also, it is appropriate to consider the cost of training when considering the cost of providing the service. 3 years of professional school (opportunity cost + tuition + interest) amortized over a career is still a significant cost. Add in CLEs, etc.

The fact that many lawyers are low-paid does not mean that the services they are providing are not "inherently expensive"; it means either (i) the lawyer isn't "breaking even" when he provides that service; or (ii) the psychic benefits of "doing good" are assigned a certain value that makes up for the financial difference. If you force people to do pro bono, the psychic benefit = near $0.

The fact that some states have mandatory pro bono requirements is already ridiculous. 3 years? lol.

First, I didn't make a comment either way as to whether the mandatory pro bono stuff would be good or bad so I won't address any of that. Second, telling me that Westlaw/Lexis is expensive once again says nothing about bottom line cost. It might say something about Westlaw/Lexis's margins, but says little about end cost. This isn't exactly neurosurgery or even dentistry for that matter. Startup and actual service costs are nowhere near other professional jobs. Also, let me know next time you bill a client for "opportunity cost".


What do you think "bottom line cost" entails? Are you talking about something like "intrinsic value" (a meaningless concept that is impossible to measure anyway)?

What you just wrote makes me think that you don't believe: "bottom line cost" of a product = the price paid by the producer for the product's component parts.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby shoeshine » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:OL public interest person here.

I guarantee you will do OCI in 2013.

If there are government agencies then sure. I think sometimes, people define PI as only working with "the poors". I've got direct service and government work experience (related to law and helping the poor with economic mobilization), so both are open. If we're talking just firms that don't have some type of PI shtick though, absolutely not. I'd cut off my hands first. PLSF/IBR make it so I can have that freedom. If those things didn't exist, then I'd either not be able to do law school, or yes, I'd have to suck it up and not be so high and mighty. Even if I can't find work immediately, most of my loans are and will be government which have nice deferment periods for economic hardship. I've never had a problem finding work though as networking is my thing (besides being humble of course 8) ) and I have a great resume to show for it which should help. Grades are my biggest concern at this point, but that's most people.

It isn't that I don't believe you are committed right now. I have seen dozens of my classmates come in with serious experience in PI orgs and all kinds of non-profits. But as soon as you get grades good enough to qualify for working at a firm (which is pretty easy at my T14) you will start to equivocate on your PI promises. You will rationalize it with stuff like this...

"Well if I work for a firm for a couple years I can always quit and do PI afterwards. That way I can pay my loans off..."
"Some firms have an awesome Pro Bono program."
"I am scared about the stability of LRAP and IBR."
"I didn't realize how hard it was to get a respectable job in public interest org. straight out of school. Many of them want people with experience so I should just go a firm first."

It is crazy how many people have said this stuff to me lately.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby IAFG » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:01 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:OL public interest person here.

I guarantee you will do OCI in 2013.



If there are government agencies then sure. I think sometimes, people define PI as only working with "the poors". I've got direct service and government work experience (related to law and helping the poor with economic mobilization), so both are open. If we're talking just firms that don't have some type of PI shtick though, absolutely not. I'd cut off my hands first. PLSF/IBR make it so I can have that freedom. If those things didn't exist, then I'd either not be able to do law school, or yes, I'd have to suck it up and not be so high and mighty. Even if I can't find work immediately, most of my loans are and will be government which have nice deferment periods for economic hardship. I've never had a problem finding work though as networking is my thing (besides being humble of course 8) ) and I have a great resume to show for it which should help. Grades are my biggest concern at this point, but that's most people.

Oh my goodness, so much facepalm.

You want to work for a gov't agency? Guess what, not hiring out of law school. Gotta go to the big firm thing first, and the bigger, the more prestigious, the more sweatshop-y, the better your chances at getting that. Sure, a few come to OCI and do the song-and-dance and take some 2Ls, but then they're not going to be able to give you a post-grad offer. And even if they could, they'd rather take Miss Sellout who is just coming off 3 years at SullCrom.

But, you know that PI jobs are hard to come by, so if you don't get one, you'll "suck it up" and do firm work? Oooookay. Except by the time you find out you didn't get the PI job of your dreams, it's too late. The firm job ship has sailed, as has it's exit options into some really amazing government and public interest work. But you'll have realized this all before OCI season comes around. You'll realize that even with your resume, and whatever grades you get, a paying PI job is far from guaranteed.

And that is how PI people with any sort of self-preservation instinct end up selling out and going to firms.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:10 pm

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Curious1
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Curious1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:14 pm

What I don't understand is why so many people think working at a firm is "selling out". Firms provide a very important service to companies, and help the entire economic system run smoothly.

And let's not forget that if you're truly dedicated to poor and under-served communities, you would do much more good by subtracting a PI salary from your firm salary and donating the difference to a soup kitchen somewhere.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby flem » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:16 pm

Curious1 wrote:What I don't understand is why so many people think working at a firm is "selling out". Firms provide a very important service to companies, and help the entire economic system run smoothly.



QF having no concept of what big lawl firm work entails

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Curious1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:16 pm

flem wrote:
Curious1 wrote:What I don't understand is why so many people think working at a firm is "selling out". Firms provide a very important service to companies, and help the entire economic system run smoothly.



QF having no concept of what big lawl firm work entails


Pray tell.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby sunynp » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:17 pm

There are not enough people or desks to supervise all the new grads doing their work. Law isn't like hospitals which are large organizations already set up to train people. Why should PI groups with the least resources be the people training new associates? I also think that PI jobs are very picky and they don't hire people who don't have a convincing background in PI. People who want to save the world and are serious about it have usually done a good bit of work to that end before they get to law school.
At the same time, too much of a PI background can sink you in biglaw interviews.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby sunynp » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:20 pm

Curious1 wrote:
flem wrote:
Curious1 wrote:What I don't understand is why so many people think working at a firm is "selling out". Firms provide a very important service to companies, and help the entire economic system run smoothly.



QF having no concept of what big lawl firm work entails


Pray tell.

My firm is really really good at structuring transactions to minimize US tax consequences, skirting, but complying with, the securities laws and avoiding anti-trust scrutiny. I love the work I will be doing but I'm not kidding myself that I am doing anything more than helping rich people and companies get richer. I don't think I help the economy run smoothly.

At my firm, I am able to do a little pro bono on the side. I enjoy helping immigrants who are getting screwed over by the system, so I can work on a couple of cases during the year.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Curious1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:24 pm

sunynp wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
flem wrote:
Curious1 wrote:What I don't understand is why so many people think working at a firm is "selling out". Firms provide a very important service to companies, and help the entire economic system run smoothly.



QF having no concept of what big lawl firm work entails


Pray tell.

My firm is really really good at structuring transactions to minimize US tax consequences, skirting, but complying with, the securities laws and avoiding anti-trust scrutiny. I love the work I will be doing but I'm not kidding myself that I am doing anything more than helping rich people and companies get richer. I don't think I help the economy run smoothly.

At the same time, I am able to do a little pro bono on the side. I enjoy helping immigrants who are getting screwed over by the system, so I can work on a couple of cases during the year.


You seem to think companies and rich people are completely detached from the rest of society, as if companies that get rich don't hire more workers, but that's another issue.

The point I was trying to make is that firms are almost necessary (and certainly the most efficient) for navigating complex laws. For example, David Polk is spending thousands of hours to make an interactive "map" that lets companies understand and comply with the Volker Rule.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby IAFG » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:25 pm

Thank you, Davis Polk, for making the world a brighter place through 50 state surveys.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Curious1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:26 pm

IAFG wrote:Thank you, Davis Polk, for making the world a brighter place through 50 state surveys.


It's not a geographical map--more like a really big chart. From the Economist:

For many of America’s most prominent law firms helping companies to cope with Dodd-Frank is a vital service to clients, a lubricant for the American economy and a great new business. Daily updates on Dodd-Frank from Davis Polk and Morrison & Foerster have become as important to many on Wall Street as newspapers. Their popularity looks set to endure: according to Davis Polk only 93 of the 400 rule-making requirements mandated by Dodd-Frank have been finalised. Deadlines have been missed for 164 (see chart 1). And litigation is just beginning.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:30 pm

Curious1 wrote:What I don't understand is why so many people think working at a firm is "selling out".


I heard from 3 different people at NYU that they had "sold out" and gone to firms. It was like they felt obligated to admit that they were sell-outs before they told me where they were headed.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:33 pm

shoeshine wrote:1) "Well if I work for a firm for a couple years I can always quit and do PI afterwards. That way I can pay my loans off..."
2) "Some firms have an awesome Pro Bono program."
3) "I am scared about the stability of LRAP and IBR."
4) "I didn't realize how hard it was to get a respectable job in public interest org. straight out of school. Many of them want people with experience so I should just go a firm first."

It is crazy how many people have said this stuff to me lately.



And it's not that I doubt you have heard these things. I have to. Like I said though, I am able to be in the position because of PLSF/IBR and my work experience/volunteer experience. To those statements you've heard:

1) If it's a firm that I'm guaranteed to not be doing things against the poor or middle class, then maybe. I've heard those are not easy to come by and they're certainly not biglaw. I have volunteered with a unicorn firm that does housing and immigration work for a poor area and I'd consider something like that to "pay off my loans first" but I honestly have no idea what that work pays. Has to be public interest oriented work or it's no firm for me.

2)Some firms do have good pro bono programs. Full-time PI work has more :wink: I'm not working for a union buster just because I can defend workers rights on my off time.

3)I'm not scared about IBR/PLSF because I am sure it'll become a sacred cow now that people are enrolling. Even if it was changed, I think the government would have a huge problem on their hands if they didn't let people who signed up with that deal on the table finish their run in the program.

4) I have experience and I'll have more after law school.


I know many people say they'll do PI but then don't and so I share the sentiment of this thread's title. I also think a lot of people just don't know what they're signing up for when they say it and they're naive. They get into it and realize it's hard/doesn't pay enough/isn't Erin Brokovich glamorous and then money-paying jobs start sounding better. I've sought out this experience (in not just the legal field), and though I haven't thoroughly enjoyed everything, I know it's all I'd consider. Again, I'm lucky to have these programs to help pay and that experience counts for something with employers. Otherwise, yes I'd be screwed and I'd have to either not go or compromise.

I'll also probably be attending a lower-ranked 1st tier law school, so thought I should make that clear as far as options that would be available anyway. Maybe I'll get off the waitlist at a top 20, but not counting on it.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby flem » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:36 pm

Curious1 wrote:
Pray tell.


All of the money is in corporate defense for big law firms. For example(s):

Environmental law: how to circumvent rules to dump toxic sludge in someone's backyard.

Employment law: how to circumvent the ADA and fire people based on disability because they're unproductive.

Intellectual property litigation: defending company A from a suit filed by company B alleging that they both have ownership of a cancer drug that would help millions of people, but they would rather litigate for future profit than release it to the public. Or two software companies expend millions of dollars litigating over who has rights to some obscure font that no one uses.

This isn't exactly god's work, bro. It's nasty, brutal, spiteful and petty. Some wide-eyed fart smelling 1L who wants to help people is going to be real surprised at what firm work is actually like.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:40 pm

sunynp wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
flem wrote:
Curious1 wrote:What I don't understand is why so many people think working at a firm is "selling out". Firms provide a very important service to companies, and help the entire economic system run smoothly.



QF having no concept of what big lawl firm work entails


Pray tell.

My firm is really really good at structuring transactions to minimize US tax consequences, skirting, but complying with, the securities laws and avoiding anti-trust scrutiny. I love the work I will be doing but I'm not kidding myself that I am doing anything more than helping rich people and companies get richer. I don't think I help the economy run smoothly.

At my firm, I am able to do a little pro bono on the side. I enjoy helping immigrants who are getting screwed over by the system, so I can work on a couple of cases during the year.


Someone once asked me if I want to help rich companies pay less taxes.
I said: No, only my clients.




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