Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

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09042014
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby 09042014 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:59 am

Borhas wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm not calling them sellouts. I'm saying that we shouldn't give advice based on naive plans that won't turn out for 3/4 people we give it to.


well, no you're not calling the 0L's sell out, you're just saying a lot of them will sell out

nuance like that is lost on a simple fellow like me


Calling someone a sellout implies more than merely getting a private sector job. It has a negative connotation.

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sd5289
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby sd5289 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:26 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Oh. No. I figured [s]he was a practicing attorney. Forget it. What the hell is [her] supposed experience?

Edit: Profile also says female. :D


Correct. She.

8 yrs of legal PI experience, 6 in the NYC metropolitan area (both Manhattan and Brooklyn). I've worked the prosecutor angle, civil legal services (mostly family law, but some housing law as it inevitably comes up in interpersonal disputes), and am currently doing immigration work via VAWA and U-Visas. A [short] list of my work experience includes interviewing witnesses and clients, dealing with client crises (and in some sectors, a "crisis" is "I can't afford the $4.50 it costs for a Metro card!"), drafting affidavits, tracking down police who couldn't bother to check a defendant's prior criminal history before marking the checkbox "no prior history" before submitting his/her report, responding to an "RFE" from USCIS, etc.

Feel free to take the information I'm giving out in this thread or leave it. I'm not really fussed either way, but I certainly wanted to dispel the notion that it's "easy" to get PI work if OCI doesn't work out. The only reason I'm [grudgingly] heading to law school is because a JD is a prerequisite to working in the Special Victims Bureau as an ADA. If there was a way around it, I would've gladly done that instead. I'm not too worried about my ability to find post-grad PI employment, but I thought I would answer some of the questions I saw here.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:39 pm

sd5289 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Oh. No. I figured [s]he was a practicing attorney. Forget it. What the hell is [her] supposed experience?

Edit: Profile also says female. :D


Correct. She.

8 yrs of legal PI experience, 6 in the NYC metropolitan area (both Manhattan and Brooklyn). I've worked the prosecutor angle, civil legal services (mostly family law, but some housing law as it inevitably comes up in interpersonal disputes), and am currently doing immigration work via VAWA and U-Visas. A [short] list of my work experience includes interviewing witnesses and clients, dealing with client crises (and in some sectors, a "crisis" is "I can't afford the $4.50 it costs for a Metro card!"), drafting affidavits, tracking down police who couldn't bother to check a defendant's prior criminal history before marking the checkbox "no prior history" before submitting his/her report, responding to an "RFE" from USCIS, etc.

Feel free to take the information I'm giving out in this thread or leave it. I'm not really fussed either way, but I certainly wanted to dispel the notion that it's "easy" to get PI work if OCI doesn't work out. The only reason I'm [grudgingly] heading to law school is because a JD is a prerequisite to working in the Special Victims Bureau as an ADA. If there was a way around it, I would've gladly done that instead. I'm not too worried about my ability to find post-grad PI employment, but I thought I would answer some of the questions I saw here.


I'm sure you have a lot of insight into the PI world, but finding out you'll be heading to Cardozo to start law school this fall makes the rest of us raise an eyebrow at comments like this:

sd5289 wrote:contrary to popular belief on these forums, while school name is important, e.g. you going to NYLS and ranking in the bottom 50% is going to catch my eye as a "meh" candidate, we don't automatically go with the NYU/CLS kids either

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sd5289
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby sd5289 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:51 pm

Lol, I went after the money and a school that would give me a good shot in combination with my background and everyone I know here who works in a hiring capacity for where I want to go. After back-and-forth scholly negotiation, Dozo was it.

I'm not saying we look at NYU/CLS kids and say "oh, nope!" However, we don't look at it and say "YES YES YES!!" If I had to narrow down two of the more important factors in getting one's name above the hundreds of others in the resume pile, it would be: a) applicable WE and b) connections/network. That's not to say that if there were two kids with nearly identical backgrounds and one was NYU and the other was Brooklyn, the NYU kid wouldn't get the pick or the interview before the Brooklyn grad.

P.S. I actually think NYLS is a POS school. Charging almost $50K in tuition alone?! :shock: I was trying to be somewhat tactful. I think it's an awful school.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:02 am

TIKITEMBO wrote:

Oh alright, but you have to give up your incest over homosexual relationship ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mAFiPVs3tM


What? I can hear your argument about homosexuality, and I'll be the first to admit that my opposition is related to my religious sensibilities. But what on earth could you have against incest? So I like me sister, big deal. She's hot.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:29 am

sd5289 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Oh. No. I figured [s]he was a practicing attorney. Forget it. What the hell is [her] supposed experience?

Edit: Profile also says female. :D


Correct. She.

8 yrs of legal PI experience, 6 in the NYC metropolitan area (both Manhattan and Brooklyn). I've worked the prosecutor angle, civil legal services (mostly family law, but some housing law as it inevitably comes up in interpersonal disputes), and am currently doing immigration work via VAWA and U-Visas. A [short] list of my work experience includes interviewing witnesses and clients, dealing with client crises (and in some sectors, a "crisis" is "I can't afford the $4.50 it costs for a Metro card!"), drafting affidavits, tracking down police who couldn't bother to check a defendant's prior criminal history before marking the checkbox "no prior history" before submitting his/her report, responding to an "RFE" from USCIS, etc.

Feel free to take the information I'm giving out in this thread or leave it. I'm not really fussed either way, but I certainly wanted to dispel the notion that it's "easy" to get PI work if OCI doesn't work out. The only reason I'm [grudgingly] heading to law school is because a JD is a prerequisite to working in the Special Victims Bureau as an ADA. If there was a way around it, I would've gladly done that instead. I'm not too worried about my ability to find post-grad PI employment, but I thought I would answer some of the questions I saw here.

Sorry if I was insulting there, didn't mean that to be an aggressive call out. I am just very suspicious of people making claims that raise the uninformed static level around here. Sounds like that isn't you, though if you're going to talk about legal hiring and such as an authority I think it would be good to be upfront about your role.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby TIKITEMBO » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:33 pm

ben4847 wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:

Oh alright, but you have to give up your incest over homosexual relationship ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mAFiPVs3tM


What? I can hear your argument about homosexuality, and I'll be the first to admit that my opposition is related to my religious sensibilities. But what on earth could you have against incest? So I like me sister, big deal. She's hot.



Aha! It is a troll. Okay we're clear now.

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sd5289
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby sd5289 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:22 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Sorry if I was insulting there, didn't mean that to be an aggressive call out. I am just very suspicious of people making claims that raise the uninformed static level around here. Sounds like that isn't you, though if you're going to talk about legal hiring and such as an authority I think it would be good to be upfront about your role.


No worries. I would actually qualify everything I wrote with a "this is how it is in NYC currently" disclaimer. I have no idea what it's like in, say, California or North Carolina. It could be completely different.

I understand the suspicion. I'm not sure where the notion of "oh I'll just fall back on this HIGHLY specialized field full of REALLY picky employers if OCI doesn't work out" came from, and it kinda drives me bonkers whenever I hear/see it. I probably come across the way I do because that's my writing style and I'm comfortable with my knowledge base and experience in this area. PI hiring tanked right along with OCI. Instead of lost profits and clients, it came in the form of budget cuts and decreased grant opportunities.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:38 pm

sd5289 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Sorry if I was insulting there, didn't mean that to be an aggressive call out. I am just very suspicious of people making claims that raise the uninformed static level around here. Sounds like that isn't you, though if you're going to talk about legal hiring and such as an authority I think it would be good to be upfront about your role.


No worries. I would actually qualify everything I wrote with a "this is how it is in NYC currently" disclaimer. I have no idea what it's like in, say, California or North Carolina. It could be completely different.

I understand the suspicion. I'm not sure where the notion of "oh I'll just fall back on this HIGHLY specialized field full of REALLY picky employers if OCI doesn't work out" came from, and it kinda drives me bonkers whenever I hear/see it. I probably come across the way I do because that's my writing style and I'm comfortable with my knowledge base and experience in this area. PI hiring tanked right along with OCI. Instead of lost profits and clients, it came in the form of budget cuts and decreased grant opportunities.

Yes. BigLaw hiring has bounced back to where it's a reasonably sure thing at top schools, though nowhere near how it was five years ago. PI hiring seems rough and if anything still declining, from where I sit. On the plus side, I think the myth you refer to of PI being a backup plan has mostly been dispelled, at least among people who are paying attention.

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skers
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby skers » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:28 pm

Friend of mine going to one of MVP is really into the idea of PI without having any knowledge about it. How bad is PI really?
Last edited by skers on Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby kingofspain » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:42 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Friend of mine going to one of MVP is really the idea of PI without having any knowledge about it. How bad is PI really?
...Huh?

PI is not one particular thing. You can do all sorts of work that fall within the PI label, and the quality/interest/work-life balance/salary will vary widely depending on what PI work you're talking about.

Anyone who says without qualification that PI work is bad has no idea what they're talking about (or they're a right-wing troll, or they're a biglaw troll).

ETA: If you're talking about the job market, I basically have no idea. If you're not committed to it and just float through law school, you're not going to end up in PI (because of 1. the salary difference 2. the convenience of OCI 3. the hiring preference for people with demonstrated commitment and experience). If you have at least some sense of what you want to do and take basic steps to get there, MVP will get you pretty decent PI.

Oh, I also wanted to add a little plug for a group I ran into at Harvard over the weekend, as encouragement for PI-hopeful 0Ls depressed by the coming onslaught of biglaw temptation: http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com/

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skers
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby skers » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:11 pm

Do you have any practical experience in PI or is this 0L musing?

09042014
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:27 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Do you have any practical experience in PI or is this 0L musing?


I interned at an environmental firm/policy group. They do interesting work, they don't work crazy hours. It's probably the best legal work you can get for lifestyle reasons. I don't know what it pays, or how hard it is to get a job.

But there is also shit like being a public defender. Which is long hours, and grueling, unsatisfying work.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby Tom Joad » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:32 pm


I bet those guys severely underperform at EIP when they put that on their resume.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby kingofspain » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:38 pm

Desert Fox wrote:But there is also shit like being a public defender. Which is long hours, and grueling, unsatisfying work.
FWIW, I know a lot of public defenders who love their work.
TemporarySaint wrote:Do you have any practical experience in PI or is this 0L musing?
A mix of both, I guess. I currently work at a public interest legal nonprofit, and I work with public interest attorneys from a variety of organizations on a regular basis. So I know the jobs exist, and I know for starting attorneys (though we hire basically never) the salary is about $75k. I know PI jobs don't all suck, and I know they vary widely in quality and in kind. The stuff about getting hired was a mix of common sense and wisdom passed on from elder law students, and I work with recent Penn grads so I know it's possible.

ALSO:
Just to clarify some things, I'll invent a taxonomy of PI work:
-Direct services
-Impact litigation
-Government (agencies - rule making, regulatory enforcement, etc.)
-Law enforcement
-Policy advocacy & analysis
-"International Human Rights"
-Private plaintiff-side firms

Basically, talking within those categories would elicit more practical responses re: salary, job market, interest of work, etc.

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skers
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby skers » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:53 pm

I wanted generalities because he's the type of idiot who's just vaguely interested in PI because it's not big law.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:08 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:I wanted generalities because he's the type of idiot who's just vaguely interested in PI because it's not big law.


He is exactly the type who will end up in big law.

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romothesavior
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:08 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Friend of mine going to one of MVP is really into the idea of PI without having any knowledge about it. How bad is PI really?

I think PI varies a great deal, just as private firm work varies a great deal. The difference is, while big firms are hiring (albeit less than pre-ITE), the truly prestigious/exciting/good PI jobs have pretty much dried up ITE. Good PI jobs are harder to get than ever before, maybe even harder than a firm job. Plus there is the odd track for getting a PI job, whereas there is a clear track for firm jobs (OCI --> SA --> offer). This also leads some people to gunning for firms when they had previously wanted to do PI.

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ben4847
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby ben4847 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:22 pm

So there is this campaign going on at Harvard to convince people to do PI instead of giving in and doing EIP.
I'm wondering why the campaigner is trying to give herself more competition with PI jobs.

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skers
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby skers » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:29 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:I wanted generalities because he's the type of idiot who's just vaguely interested in PI because it's not big law.


He is exactly the type who will end up in big law.


My guess as well. I've told him to just go be a high school teacher.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:44 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:I wanted generalities because he's the type of idiot who's just vaguely interested in PI because it's not big law.


He is exactly the type who will end up in big law.

lol this

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby bilbobaggins » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:Do you have any practical experience in PI or is this 0L musing?


I interned at an environmental firm/policy group. They do interesting work, they don't work crazy hours. It's probably the best legal work you can get for lifestyle reasons. I don't know what it pays, or how hard it is to get a job.

But there is also shit like being a public defender. Which is long hours, and grueling, unsatisfying work.


Not really sure what you're talking about. Most PD's I know love what they do, are very satisfied with their work and have reasonable hours.

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romothesavior
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:35 pm

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/04/the-commendable-yet-futile-harvard-law-campaign-to-just-say-no-to-biglaw/
Here's the ATL piece on the group.

I would probably spit at these people if they tried to peddle this crap to me. It's arrogant, insulting, and simple-minded.

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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby bilbobaggins » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:36 pm

romothesavior wrote:http://abovethelaw.com/2012/04/the-commendable-yet-futile-harvard-law-campaign-to-just-say-no-to-biglaw/

I would probably spit at these people if they tried to peddle this crap to me. It's arrogant, insulting, and simple-minded.


Sort of like spitting on someone for talking to you.

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romothesavior
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Re: Proposal: We stop accepting the flame that 0Ls will do PI

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:37 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:
romothesavior wrote:http://abovethelaw.com/2012/04/the-commendable-yet-futile-harvard-law-campaign-to-just-say-no-to-biglaw/

I would probably spit at these people if they tried to peddle this crap to me. It's arrogant, insulting, and simple-minded.


Sort of like spitting on someone for talking to you.

Wut

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