Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Cardozo (28k/year scholly, 132k debt)
17
39%
Brooklyn (40k/year scholly, 96k debt)
26
59%
Seton Hall (35k/year scholly, 99k debt)
1
2%
 
Total votes: 44

User avatar
iceicebaby
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:19 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:Ugh, gotta love the TLS elitist rhetoric.

OP has three options, so discuss those three only. Otherwise, you miss the whole point of this thread.

1. Dozo - most debt, best NY prospects of the three. In the end, however, I contend that the additional money spent (including interest) will outweigh any "advantage" gained going here.
2. Brooklyn - better for NYC compared to SH, but not outside of Manhattan. IMHO, their facilities and administration are very meh and I don't think they really enjoy a better overall rep than Seton Hall does.
3. Seton Hall - not perceived as well as the other schools in NYC, but they have a very good Health Law program and the nicest facilities of the three despite being 15 minutes on a PATH train from WTC. My Dad is an executive counsel at Anthem BCBS, and the lawyers there extol the health law program at Seton Hall. Also, after visiting the three, I got the sense that the students were the happiest and most cohesive of the three listed here.

You can take it for what it's worth. I voted for Brooklyn because of your absolute preference for NY, but I don't think you should write off any of them. Did you visit them all? If so, go with the one that feels like the best fit for you. For me, I need good facilities, a strong alumni network and strong student body cohesion... to each their own.


He should write off SH for the horrible stip


Top 50% isn't horrible for a stip. But yeah, the other stips are much better, which is why I edited my response to include that fact. If OP isn't top 50% of any of these schools, then they should be prepared to drop out or face a tough road ahead.

User avatar
iceicebaby
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:20 pm

rad lulz wrote:Ah yes, trying to give yourself a good shot at ANY employment that will enable you to repay your loans is a profound display of elitism.


With all due respect, can you please show me where their employment figures indicate a large percentage of unemployed students that will be unable to repay at least some of their loans? Take your time...
Last edited by iceicebaby on Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby Nelson » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:20 pm

iceicebaby wrote: For me, I need good facilities, a strong alumni network and strong student body cohesion... to each their own.

You couldn't possibly pick worse criteria for selecting a professional school.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:21 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
iceicebaby
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:22 pm

Nelson wrote:
iceicebaby wrote: For me, I need good facilities, a strong alumni network and strong student body cohesion... to each their own.

You couldn't possibly pick worse criteria for selecting a professional school.


I didn't say that's ALL I need... I'm saying all things being equal with these schools (which they largely are), I would look at these secondary qualities. People seem to forget that you have to live, breath and sweat law school the next three years of your life... so yeah, they are important factors to consider for quality of life outside of the classroom. If you're going to school simply for the pure academic exercise or just to get a doctorate, then I think you're missing the point. You're not going to be living in a vacuum where only your class ranking matters and one should not undervalue the social aspects of being a lawyer.

But again, to each their own.
Last edited by iceicebaby on Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
iceicebaby
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:24 pm

rad lulz wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Ah yes, trying to give yourself a good shot at ANY employment that will enable you to repay your loans is a profound display of elitism.


With all due respect, can you please show me where their employment figures indicate a large percentage of unemployed students that will be unable to repay at least some of their loans? Take your time...

In class, get back to you in an hour. Also keep in mind that the schools intentionally provide shitty and misdleading stats.


Then what do you really have to go by? Verbal reports and anecdotal evidence? At some point you have to stop acting like you can truly measure your likely outcome from these schools based upon faulty numbers on a stat sheet...

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15464
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:28 pm

iceicebaby wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Ah yes, trying to give yourself a good shot at ANY employment that will enable you to repay your loans is a profound display of elitism.


With all due respect, can you please show me where their employment figures indicate a large percentage of unemployed students that will be unable to repay at least some of their loans? Take your time...

In class, get back to you in an hour. Also keep in mind that the schools intentionally provide shitty and misdleading stats.


Then what do you really have to go by? Verbal reports and anecdotal evidence? At some point you have to stop acting like you can truly measure your likely outcome from these schools based upon faulty numbers on a stat sheet...

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.


Seton Hall reports a median salary of $44,551 for employed graduates of the class of 2010. Even if we assume this is representative, I don't know how someone pays down the principal on 100K worth of loans on that salary.

http://law.shu.edu/ProspectiveStudents/ ... /index.cfm

User avatar
Mr. Somebody
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:42 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby Mr. Somebody » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:32 pm

iceicebaby wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:Ugh, gotta love the TLS elitist rhetoric.

OP has three options, so discuss those three only. Otherwise, you miss the whole point of this thread.

1. Dozo - most debt, best NY prospects of the three. In the end, however, I contend that the additional money spent (including interest) will outweigh any "advantage" gained going here.
2. Brooklyn - better for NYC compared to SH, but not outside of Manhattan. IMHO, their facilities and administration are very meh and I don't think they really enjoy a better overall rep than Seton Hall does.
3. Seton Hall - not perceived as well as the other schools in NYC, but they have a very good Health Law program and the nicest facilities of the three despite being 15 minutes on a PATH train from WTC. My Dad is an executive counsel at Anthem BCBS, and the lawyers there extol the health law program at Seton Hall. Also, after visiting the three, I got the sense that the students were the happiest and most cohesive of the three listed here.

You can take it for what it's worth. I voted for Brooklyn because of your absolute preference for NY, but I don't think you should write off any of them. Did you visit them all? If so, go with the one that feels like the best fit for you. For me, I need good facilities, a strong alumni network and strong student body cohesion... to each their own.


He should write off SH for the horrible stip


Top 50% isn't horrible for a stip. But yeah, the other stips are much better, which is why I edited my response to include that fact. If OP isn't top 50% of any of these schools, then they should be prepared to drop out or face a tough road ahead.


Top 50% is horrible. You have a coin-flip chance of paying sticker

User avatar
flem
Posts: 12949
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby flem » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:35 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
Top 50% is horrible. You have a coin-flip chance of paying sticker


I don't think it's bad at all when you realize you should drop out if you're below median at a school in this range.

That is, of course, if you're realistic.

User avatar
Mr. Somebody
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:42 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby Mr. Somebody » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:36 pm

flem wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:
Top 50% is horrible. You have a coin-flip chance of paying sticker


I don't think it's bad at all when you realize you should drop out if you're below median at a school in this range.

That is, of course, if you're realistic.


That's tru but OP has other options with better stips

Yikes, Dozo's employment page is a mess to decipher.

http://cardozo.yu.edu/MemberContentDisp ... ntid=20254

I did some back of the hand calculations and about 20% of the class is working in firms with 100+ lawyers. Thats for class of 2010....

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:39 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
stillwater
Posts: 3811
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:59 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby stillwater » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:40 pm

iceicebaby wrote:
Expect the worst, prepare for the best.


Or you could just not put yourself in a bad situation to begin with and obviate the need for your cute maxim in this situation.

User avatar
iceicebaby
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:44 pm

stillwater wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:
Expect the worst, prepare for the best.


Or you could just not put yourself in a bad situation to begin with and obviate the need for your cute maxim.


True, but OP is dead-set on going. It's not like you can just wake up one day and say "well, I guess being a lawyer is not ideal enough for me, why don't I go be a doctor!"

Listen, these are not bad situations. They aren't the most ideal, true, but the OP (like myself) has probably determined that the alternatives are either not viable or are just as bad. Everyone's hurting now, you'd be blind to not see that. It's also about building a career, not just the next 5 years of your life. If this is all just about money, then honestly someone needs to re-evaluate why they want to go to law school.
Last edited by iceicebaby on Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15464
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:46 pm

rad lulz wrote:C/o 2010 (OCI 2008) was awesome. That's a high water point.


Can't agree with this. Most schools that reported data for 2008-2010 showed a decline in firm employment and salary during that period. And it's not like Dozo people are all getting jobs through OCI.

User avatar
Robespierre
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby Robespierre » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:53 pm

Voted for Brooklyn. SH's stip is outrageous and if you definitely want NYC it's not a good choice. Comes down to Dozo or BLS. I don't think Dozo's placement is better by enough of a margin to justify borrowing an extra $30K+.

I do agree with the others that 100K is an awful lot of money to be borrowing to attend the fourth or fifth best school in an overcrowded market.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:05 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

TLSwag
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby TLSwag » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:07 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
rad lulz wrote:C/o 2010 (OCI 2008) was awesome. That's a high water point.


Can't agree with this. Most schools that reported data for 2008-2010 showed a decline in firm employment and salary during that period. And it's not like Dozo people are all getting jobs through OCI.


This. You beat me to it

TLSwag
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby TLSwag » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:10 pm

rad lulz wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:
rad lulz wrote:In class, get back to you in an hour. Also keep in mind that the schools intentionally provide shitty and misdleading stats.


Then what do you really have to go by? Verbal reports and anecdotal evidence? At some point you have to stop acting like you can truly measure your likely outcome from these schools based upon faulty numbers on a stat sheet...

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.


False and misleading employment stats should be a red flag breh.

I was gonna make a poast about the low chance at biglaw (as shown by the NLJ250 list), the likely outcome if you miss biglaw thanks to the bimodal salary distribution curve, and how only 58% of law grads get full time bar passage required jobs after graduation (and those that don't come disproportionately from less prestigious schools). However, you've literally heard all of this before, so I decided against it.

Plus I'm just a bitter elitist or whatever.


Finally, we can agree on something

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:12 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
iceicebaby
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:15 pm

rad lulz wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:
rad lulz wrote:In class, get back to you in an hour. Also keep in mind that the schools intentionally provide shitty and misdleading stats.


Then what do you really have to go by? Verbal reports and anecdotal evidence? At some point you have to stop acting like you can truly measure your likely outcome from these schools based upon faulty numbers on a stat sheet...

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.


False and misleading employment stats should be a red flag breh.

I was gonna make a poast about the low chance at biglaw (as shown by the NLJ250 list), the likely outcome if you miss biglaw thanks to the bimodal salary distribution curve, and how only 58% of law grads get full time bar passage required jobs after graduation (and those that don't come disproportionately from less prestigious schools). However, you've literally heard all of this before, so I decided against it. Plus I'm just a bitter elitist or whatever.


The employment stats aren't the best, granted, but I just hate the whole "biglaw or bread line" argument because it simply isn't true. It's constantly the line of thinking used to scare K-JDs into thinking twice about law school, as they should.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:18 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:27 pm

JuniorMint wrote:I know what there is to know - every stat and probability concerning each of these schools has already been thrown at me.

If you're fully informed, why create the thread? It seems harsh to ask for advice, then complain when you don't like the advice, and respond by saying you don't need advice.

Look, to move this out of the name-calling realm, why don't you do the stats and probabilities on here? Figure out what percentage chance you have at each of these schools to get the work you're looking for. You have the information, why not post it and show rad he's wrong?

TLSwag
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby TLSwag » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:33 pm

rad lulz wrote:
TLSwag wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
rad lulz wrote:C/o 2010 (OCI 2008) was awesome. That's a high water point.


Can't agree with this. Most schools that reported data for 2008-2010 showed a decline in firm employment and salary during that period. And it's not like Dozo people are all getting jobs through OCI.


This. You beat me to it

Still nothing like 2011, though I suppose a decent argument could be made from the preliminary reports I've seen that we're back at c/o 2010 style employment at "top" schools. I'd be a lot more hesitant having read some of the OCI stuff from this fall about lower-ranked schools.


Why don't u do some more research on that NLJ250 report you love to cite? c/o 2010 - Cardozo placed 12.6% (ranked 34th) and c/o 2011 placed 11.84% (ranked 27th).... 2009 was at 20.1% (30th).

GOD DAMN 2010 WHAT A FUCKING YEAR

TLSwag
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby TLSwag » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:36 pm

What I would like to inquire into is why Brooklyn fails to appear in the top 50 for 2009. 2010, and 2011 NLJ 250 placement, if it is considered a peer school to Cardozo...

User avatar
iceicebaby
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Re: Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:38 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
JuniorMint wrote:I know what there is to know - every stat and probability concerning each of these schools has already been thrown at me.

If you're fully informed, why create the thread? It seems harsh to ask for advice, then complain when you don't like the advice, and respond by saying you don't need advice.

Look, to move this out of the name-calling realm, why don't you do the stats and probabilities on here? Figure out what percentage chance you have at each of these schools to get the work you're looking for. You have the information, why not post it and show rad he's wrong?


I don't think you could realistically do this for any school, let alone these schools.

If you're making life-altering decisions based solely upon your perceptions of faulty (at best) statistics, you probably shouldn't go to law school.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 6 guests