How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

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PatrickChewing15
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How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby PatrickChewing15 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:43 am

Anyone want to write a guide on how to explain TLS realities to non-TLS friends who are about to make insanely bad decisions. Like sticker at a TTT and 10k scholarship at Florida Coastal level bad. I have no idea how to start a conversation about how bad of an idea this really is in person. I think even worse than friends is acquaintances. Last year I just told a friend to check out this site. A couple days later I got bitched at for showing her this "elitist bullshit" and she's at Elon now. I don't really post on her because plenty of people do a good job of giving solid advice who are already in Law School. Has anyone had any success with essentially shitting on their friends dreams? I don't understand how people do absolutely no research beyond a schools listed employment statistics before making a life changing decision.

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NYC Law
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:53 am

I've faced the same problem. All you can do is direct them to TLS, maybe suggest they look at lawschooltransparency. Other than that you have to let them make their own decision.

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PatrickChewing15
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby PatrickChewing15 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:09 am

I agree there, I'm just hesitant to even do that after how it was reacted to last time. This post was spurred by Facebook posts of a girl who was top 5 in my high school class that I probably haven't spoken to in 5 years. Something like "Woooooooo just got into Albany Law School and with a bit of scholarship! But still really want to go to TTT #2, why wont they give me any money at all :("

I would love to anonymously drop links to TLS an LST in her inbox but I have no idea how to bring it up.

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bk1
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:14 am

PatrickChewing15 wrote:I would love to anonymously drop links to TLS an LST in her inbox but I have no idea how to bring it up.

She's a complete stranger to you, why do you care?

I understand that I have the same hypocrisy on a certain level since I answer threads on TLS, though I'd argue that people come to TLS for answers whereas your high school classmate isn't soliciting opinions on fb.com. I'd like to think that it's because TLS actually prevented me from making a retarded decision, but I highly doubt my real reasons for answering threads on TLS are in any sense altruistic.

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Lawbro
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby Lawbro » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:19 am

Its their life, let them make their own decisions. They are all old enough to be responsible for their actions, and while you may think you are doing them a favor they are unlikely to think the same.

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NinerFan
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby NinerFan » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:26 am

As someone not too far removed from undergrad, I find myself running into this issue more and more with my friends. I haven't really had much luck in dissuading people from going to shitty law schools, but, for my conscience anyways, it's the effort that counts.

The main problem seems to be that people think some of the problems are exaggerations and that their situations/goals are "different"

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flem
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby flem » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:44 am

I've stopped. I know way too many people that end up at random T4 toilets. Good luck to all of them. I don't think they know how abjectly fucked they are.

EdgarWinter
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby EdgarWinter » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:21 am

.
Last edited by EdgarWinter on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flem
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby flem » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:25 am

EdgarWinter wrote:I know somebody who is currently a 1L at Charlotte School of Law. Hadn't talked to her in years and didn't say anything when I saw the tragic fbook update because she's always been somebody who loves making bad decisions.

That said if an actual close friend was about to do something similarly stupid I would ruin the friendship if I had to rather than see them essentially end their lives. A friend owes a friend nothing less. Also you aren't risking much, your friendship is probably about over once they graduate from the TTT anyway. Unemployed miserable people are hard to stay friends with. I would sit them down, have a drink or two, and then try to be a kind as possible. Stress that you are worried about them but that believe in them and that they are capable of better (assuming this is actually true). I wouldn't send them to TLS...why do that when JDU would get the point across much better? Also send them to law school transparency; that site gets the point across without making people feel too bad. Have them compare their choice of school with a public non-lay-prestigious T14 (Michigan or UVA). That might make them blanch a bit. (If you have them compare their school to an ivy-league school they might be more apt to think you an asshole or something). Also have links to the NYT Segal articles on hand.

I think how far you go depends on how close of friends you are (closer=farther). Good luck.


JDU is hilariously hyperbolic bruh

EdgarWinter
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby EdgarWinter » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:30 am

JDU isn't that far off the mark for your average TTT grad these days. Esp. if that TTT is in a saturated area. If you send them to TLS they might get into one of those stupid c/o 2015 threads where all the damned are happily setting up their housing arrangements and w/e. That's not gonna help anybody.

OP I think it might help if you stress that even if you disagree with your friend's call you're still going to want to be friends with them whatever they do (this is almost certainly not true in the long run but it might make them less likely to be pissed off).

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splitbrain
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby splitbrain » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:41 am

If they're not looking for advice, don't give it to them. Yes you should suggest that they should really think more about it but just don't get into it with them; they're going to do what they're going to do and you have no obligations to them, especially when they're not asking for input.

EdgarWinter
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby EdgarWinter » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:28 pm

You have obligations to your friends. If you don't think that's true then you are probably a bad friend.

HeavenWood
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:32 pm

NYC Law wrote:I've faced the same problem. All you can do is direct them to TLS, maybe suggest they look at lawschooltransparency. Other than that you have to let them make their own decision.

In the end, if they'd rather believe their own bullshit, that's their prerogative. All you can do is hope they end up being an exception to the rule.

timbs4339
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:37 pm

Law students should be required to take a course in cognitive bias before they take the LSAT so they understand why people make crappy decisions. Although the problem is they'd probably nod their heads and say, yeah, I notice that about my friends and family ALL THE TIME!

s.pathan
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby s.pathan » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:41 pm

Lawbro wrote:Its their life, let them make their own decisions. They are all old enough to be responsible for their actions, and while you may think you are doing them a favor they are unlikely to think the same.

amen.

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splitbrain
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby splitbrain » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:49 pm

EdgarWinter wrote:You have obligations to your friends. If you don't think that's true then you are probably a bad friend.

Fair enough - I'll clarify restate: If you are trying to control the career-related decisions of your friends, you're a douchebag. If you're prancing around telling people on Facebook or offline that they can make a better decision when they aren't soliciting your opinion, you're also a douchebag.

ETA further:
I understand that your motives are to try and help them, but the only way to start is by asking if they want your advice and opinions. If they say yes, then proceed to offer up all the collective TLS knowledge on a silver platter and hope they eat it all. If they say no, then f off. It's basically that simple.

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Its Always Sunny
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby Its Always Sunny » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:42 pm

lol let them learn the hard way. My FB was getting filled with people I went to undergrad/high school with and they post about being accepted to TTTT like it is Harvard. Then all their friends comment OMG your so smart,etc. I had one person at my LSAT test center say he was already enrolled in law school at some California online school. BTW I'm nowhere near California either so I know he doesn't practice anything there. lol another person asked how many sections there was and if we would be out by lunch. Thankfully for him he said all he wanted was Ave Maria "since it doesn't matter where you go law school". Not being mean, but some people deserve what they get.

EdgarWinter
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby EdgarWinter » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:07 pm

Splitbrain I think we have a different definition of "friends" and that is why we are apparently in disagreement. You probably define "friendship" as some sort of shallow weather-conversation arrangement that happens every month. I don't. You would lecture your kid brother against going to Cooley; a real friend deserves the same courtesy. If a close friend wanted to go to a TTT it's not like I would physically stop them. If they matriculated I'd even root for them while they were there. But I would be very critical and they would probably thank me for it eventually, because good friends are friends who give each other the tough shit that other people aren't allowed to say. And if I went to a TTT and somebody who knew better and whom I thought was my friend didn't warn me against it then I would have a difficult time forgiving them post-graduation.

I think the decline of "friendship" in any meaningful sense (esp among white collar society) as opposed to that of the facebook/linkediN/PTA Society/other bullshit relationship variety is one of the sadder things that has happened to America in the past half-century. http://www.cracked.com/article_15231_7- ... z10J1ByrNj. The idea that one wouldn't criticize a friend's monumentally terrible life choice just because they didn't ask is equal to not actually giving a shit about that person's welfare imo. I hope you don't convince many people of that mentality because that mentality does not make this world a better world to live in. /rant/done with this thread/good luck OP.
Last edited by EdgarWinter on Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flem
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby flem » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:07 pm

EdgarWinter wrote:Splitbrain I think we have a different definition of "friends" and that is why we are apparently in disagreement. You probably define "friendship" as some sort of shallow weather-conversation arrangement that happens every month. I don't. You would lecture your kid brother against going to Cooley; a real friend deserves the same courtesy. If a close friend wanted to go to a TTT it's not like I would physically stop them. If they matriculated I'd even root for them while they were there. But I would be very critical and they would probably thank me for it eventually, because good friends are friends who give each other the tough shit that other people aren't allowed to say. And if I went to a TTT and somebody who knew better and whom I thought was my friend didn't warn me against it then I would have a difficult time forgiving them post-graduation.

I think the decline of "friendship" in any meaningful sense (esp among white collar society) as opposed to that of the facebook/linkediN/PTA Society/other bullshit relationship variety is one of the sadder things that has happened to America in the past half-century. http://www.cracked.com/article_15231_7- ... z10J1ByrNj. The idea that one wouldn't criticize a friend's monumentally terrible life choice just because they didn't ask is equal to not actually giving a shit about that person's welfare imo. I hope you don't convince many people of that mentality because that mentality does not make this world a better world to live in. /rant/done with this threat/good luck OP.


TSO BRAVE

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splitbrain
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby splitbrain » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:29 pm

EdgarWinter wrote:Pompous bullshit.

No, the difference is that I don't talk down to my friends, you self-righteous jackass.

EdgarWinter wrote:And if I went to a TTT and somebody who knew better and whom I thought was my friend didn't warn me against it then I would have a difficult time forgiving them post-graduation.

Are you seriously that stupid?

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:21 pm

s.pathan wrote:
Lawbro wrote:Its their life, let them make their own decisions. They are all old enough to be responsible for their actions, and while you may think you are doing them a favor they are unlikely to think the same.

amen.


I respectfully disagree with this advice. The problem with society today is the fact too many people are not responsible for their actions. These folks will take out huge loans to flip burgers and while the loan is out, and their interest rates kill them, we pay for the difference in the "outstanding" finances with higher taxes to cover. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-tax; I am, however, sick of people taking these 150K+ loans we all know they will default on. Again, yes, they have to pay it back, but we keep the water bucket full while they're bailing. So, I'm saying it is a responsibility of our community to help them realize their responsibilities.

OP, keep up the fight. Dumb people are stuck in a room with no light, it is up to us to bring a candle to their aid, whether they ask for it or not. It is like the old boat analogy: When you are in a boat with a hole taking on water, it shouldn't matter to you that the other person is ok with drowning. PLUG THE HOLE! We are all in the same economic boat here, people. I want to live to see better economic times, if it's all the same to you...

All you can do is try once or twice...

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romothesavior
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:13 pm

Depends on how good of friends you guys are. If good friends, you probably owe them something. Try to talk them out of it and send them this way. If you are a law student, you are also in a unique situation to give law school advice and can do it without being a jerk. If you're not good friends, unfriend them and forget about them. Who cares? People do stupid shit.

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briviere
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby briviere » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:32 pm

BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:
s.pathan wrote:
Lawbro wrote:Its their life, let them make their own decisions. They are all old enough to be responsible for their actions, and while you may think you are doing them a favor they are unlikely to think the same.

amen.


I respectfully disagree with this advice. The problem with society today is the fact too many people are not responsible for their actions. These folks will take out huge loans to flip burgers and while the loan is out, and their interest rates kill them, we pay for the difference in the "outstanding" finances with higher taxes to cover. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-tax; I am, however, sick of people taking these 150K+ loans we all know they will default on. Again, yes, they have to pay it back, but we keep the water bucket full while they're bailing. So, I'm saying it is a responsibility of our community to help them realize their responsibilities.

OP, keep up the fight. Dumb people are stuck in a room with no light, it is up to us to bring a candle to their aid, whether they ask for it or not. It is like the old boat analogy: When you are in a boat with a hole taking on water, it shouldn't matter to you that the other person is ok with drowning. PLUG THE HOLE! We are all in the same economic boat here, people. I want to live to see better economic times, if it's all the same to you...

All you can do is try once or twice...

+1

It's easy to say, "let the market handle those foolish enough to take loans they'll never repay," but the fact of the matter is that the rest of us are going to be left holding the bag when nobody is servicing all of this student loan debt. What's that you say? You're anti bailout? Me too, but even if we avoid bailing out individuals or institutions holding those loans we'll still get screwed in the end when we find out those student loans were repackaged six ways to sunday.

foolish people will destroy us all :cry:

Ignatius
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby Ignatius » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:58 pm

Remove Law & Order from his/her DVR. I feel like that show is at least partially responsible for a great number of poor law school decisions; furthermore, the show itself is terrible, so either way you're helping him/her out.

Joking aside, like others have said, there's nothing that you should really do unless it's a situation with a (very) close friend where you'd be arguably obligated to stage a pseudo life intervention of sorts.

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PatrickChewing15
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Re: How do you shit on a friend's dreams?

Postby PatrickChewing15 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:39 pm

I think my second post saying that the random girl's post on Facebook is what spurred this thread took away from my real question. No, I'm not going to say anything to her because I don't give a shit about her. Some might say that makes me a dick, others might say I'd be a dick if I gave out information unsolicited. Either way, that's not the situation I'm concerned with. It just so happened to get me to think about asking this question on here.

I'm really concerned with true friends, the people I spend most days with and every weekend. I hate to see them make this mistake because for better or worse I care how their lives end up. Like I said, I had a friend who I directed to TLS last year who is at Elon now. I thought that this was the best way to go then and the reaction I got made me unsure. I'm afraid that trying to go the subtle route of suggesting a website comes off wrong. Maybe an actual conversation with give and take would work better and be more successful. I also don't know if the fact that I was a Junior in Undergrad last year made what I had to say come off worse or if being accepted to T14's at this point makes it seem more like I'm being a dick.




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