Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Poll

Boston U (15k per year)
12
48%
University of Illionis (with 11k scholly per year)
0
No votes
Notre Dame (20k scholly per year)
8
32%
Washington and Lee (20k scholly per year)
4
16%
U Maryland (4k scholly per year)
0
No votes
American (20k scholly per year)
0
No votes
Penn State (15k scholly per year) *Note: Penn State has no in-state tuition break
1
4%
 
Total votes: 25

tallgaloot
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:34 pm

Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby tallgaloot » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:26 am

OK- so there is a glitch in the poll software and I cannot update a poll. It just fills the screen with an incredible number of options which can't be deleted. Couldn't find any information on the problem- so AGAIN I have to start new thread- To see where the conversation has been already, you can look at the other thread. I'm updating the poll due to a recent scholarship offer from BU.


Update: 4/9 with scholarship from BU.

Updating (again) because of new offer.
I'm looking at starting this fall at law school, looking towards a career in public interest law. Specifically looking at helping children's and families in poverty as child/poverty advocate. Whether this happens at a nonprofit, a government agency, or somewhere else has yet to be seen. I have no desire for "Big Law." I've been accepted to a few schools (and rejected from a good number of others).
What are your thoughts on my choices keeping these things in mind.
1. I want to go to the BEST school possible.
2. Since making money is not my biggest concern, a school with a good LRAP would be a good fit.
3. If possible, I'd like to stay close to the east coast (NJ) as I have an ill mother. Would probably prefer to practice somewhere in the northeast Like New York down to Washington DC area. I'm currently in PA.
4. I want the school with the best track record/program in public interest.
5. I wouldn't mind a judicial clerkship after graduation.
6. I want to work hard and have a job soon after graduating.

Now- Here's my current offers:
Boston U (15k per year)
University of Illionis (with 11k scholly per year)
Notre Dame (20k scholly per year)
Washington and Lee (20k scholly per year)
U Maryland (4k scholly per year)
American (20k scholly per year)
Penn State (15k scholly per year) *Note: Penn State has no in-state tuition break

I appreciate your help. If I could hear some of your thoughts on your vote, that would be terrific as well.

I have visited W&L, BU, and ND and am leaning heavily towards ND.

elm84dr
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby elm84dr » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:39 am

tallgaloot wrote:OK- so there is a glitch in the poll software and I cannot update a poll. It just fills the screen with an incredible number of options which can't be deleted. Couldn't find any information on the problem- so AGAIN I have to start new thread- To see where the conversation has been already, you can look at the other thread. I'm updating the poll due to a recent scholarship offer from BU.


Update: 4/9 with scholarship from BU.

Updating (again) because of new offer.
I'm looking at starting this fall at law school, looking towards a career in public interest law. Specifically looking at helping children's and families in poverty as child/poverty advocate. Whether this happens at a nonprofit, a government agency, or somewhere else has yet to be seen. I have no desire for "Big Law." I've been accepted to a few schools (and rejected from a good number of others).
What are your thoughts on my choices keeping these things in mind.
1. I want to go to the BEST school possible.
2. Since making money is not my biggest concern, a school with a good LRAP would be a good fit.
3. If possible, I'd like to stay close to the east coast (NJ) as I have an ill mother. Would probably prefer to practice somewhere in the northeast Like New York down to Washington DC area. I'm currently in PA.
4. I want the school with the best track record/program in public interest.
5. I wouldn't mind a judicial clerkship after graduation.
6. I want to work hard and have a job soon after graduating.

Now- Here's my current offers:
Boston U (15k per year)
University of Illionis (with 11k scholly per year)
Notre Dame (20k scholly per year)
Washington and Lee (20k scholly per year)
U Maryland (4k scholly per year)
American (20k scholly per year)
Penn State (15k scholly per year) *Note: Penn State has no in-state tuition break

I appreciate your help. If I could hear some of your thoughts on your vote, that would be terrific as well.

I have visited W&L, BU, and ND and am leaning heavily towards ND.


BU has a great LRAP and Public Interest Program. You should consider sending them your ND offer, they will probably match, but only if you say you will def. go if they do.

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bk1
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:07 am

Lower ranked schools (even those as high as the 20's/30's) generally have shitty LRAP's. This is due to the fact that they don't have nearly as large endowments/funding to support LRAP programs. While they usually have the issue that their LRAP's give little money, the bigger issue is that a lot of their LRAP programs are conditional (you aren't guaranteed to be accepted and they specifically state that if they run out of money you're shit out of luck). I don't think LRAP is a huge factor here, but I haven't looked at these schools individually to verify that their LRAP sucks.

On the other hand, I don't think LRAP is too important. You'll have PSLF to cover you if you snag a PI job. It won't be as cushy as if you had LRAP to help, but at least you'll be debt free in 10 years with PSLF and payments are manageable. Which leads to the real kicker, it's not that easy to get a PI job. If you don't get a PSLF-qualifying job the debtload at a lot of these schools is going to be absolutely soulcrushing. The economy has likely hurt PI employers worse than it has hurt firms. If you look at any of these schools (even if you look at T14's) the percentage of students that get PI/gov jobs is quite minimal.

You don't have any decently cheap options in the area that you want to practice (East Coast). BU/AU/Penn State/UMD are all going to cost well into 6 figures. I'd retake/reapply. If you had it on your list I'd suggest Rutgers since it's cheap (although mediocre), but you don't.

CanadianWolf
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:12 am

1) Notre Dame
2) Boston University
3) American University
4) Wash & Lee

Based on your desire to practice in the area of public interest combined with scholarship offers.

tallgaloot
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:34 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby tallgaloot » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:16 pm

bk1 wrote:Lower ranked schools (even those as high as the 20's/30's) generally have shitty LRAP's. This is due to the fact that they don't have nearly as large endowments/funding to support LRAP programs. While they usually have the issue that their LRAP's give little money, the bigger issue is that a lot of their LRAP programs are conditional (you aren't guaranteed to be accepted and they specifically state that if they run out of money you're shit out of luck). I don't think LRAP is a huge factor here, but I haven't looked at these schools individually to verify that their LRAP sucks.

On the other hand, I don't think LRAP is too important. You'll have PSLF to cover you if you snag a PI job. It won't be as cushy as if you had LRAP to help, but at least you'll be debt free in 10 years with PSLF and payments are manageable. Which leads to the real kicker, it's not that easy to get a PI job. If you don't get a PSLF-qualifying job the debtload at a lot of these schools is going to be absolutely soulcrushing. The economy has likely hurt PI employers worse than it has hurt firms. If you look at any of these schools (even if you look at T14's) the percentage of students that get PI/gov jobs is quite minimal.

You don't have any decently cheap options in the area that you want to practice (East Coast). BU/AU/Penn State/UMD are all going to cost well into 6 figures. I'd retake/reapply. If you had it on your list I'd suggest Rutgers since it's cheap (although mediocre), but you don't.

For what it's worth- Notre Dame appears to have just as good of a LRAP as BU, with the one caveat that you don't work for an organization that is not in line with the Catholic church (re: Planned Parenthood or ACLU, I'm assuming). Do you think that there are so few people going into PI because they can't get jobs or because the field is self-selecting out of PI. There is the Income Based Repayment Plan that can keep debt payments lower as well.

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bk1
Posts: 18406
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:54 pm

tallgaloot wrote:For what it's worth- Notre Dame appears to have just as good of a LRAP as BU, with the one caveat that you don't work for an organization that is not in line with the Catholic church (re: Planned Parenthood or ACLU, I'm assuming). Do you think that there are so few people going into PI because they can't get jobs or because the field is self-selecting out of PI. There is the Income Based Repayment Plan that can keep debt payments lower as well.


I was referencing IBR (PSLF is the 10 year version of IBR for people in PI jobs). I think PI has few people both because it is hard to get a job and because people self-select out of it. The reality is that hoping on PI is a substantial risk if you have a lot of debt since if, for whatever reason, you don't get it you will be in a horrible situation with that debt train bearing down on you.

tallgaloot
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:34 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby tallgaloot » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:55 pm

I wonder why the love for BU over ND in the poll. Full disclosure: I am leaning toward ND, with the biggest reason being that during my visits I enjoyed ND a lot more and I don't like cities. ND felt like a better fit for me. But upon more searching:
ND has a higher employment rate.
ND has more placement in PI.
ND has the same placement in my home market (PA/NJ) as Boston.
ND will be cheaper (including COL)

What am I missing?

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bk1
Posts: 18406
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:13 pm

tallgaloot wrote:I wonder why the love for BU over ND in the poll. Full disclosure: I am leaning toward ND, with the biggest reason being that during my visits I enjoyed ND a lot more and I don't like cities. ND felt like a better fit for me. But upon more searching:
ND has a higher employment rate.
ND has more placement in PI.
ND has the same placement in my home market (PA/NJ) as Boston.
ND will be cheaper (including COL)

What am I missing?


My Theory - TLS is biglaw-biased. BU consistently does better than ND in biglaw placement. TLS is also generally east coast biased as well. Generally people have a hard time avoiding letting their own biases affect how they choose in polls.

My Opinion - BU/ND are close enough on cost that cost isn't really a huge factor.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby Blindmelon » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:46 pm

tallgaloot wrote:I wonder why the love for BU over ND in the poll. Full disclosure: I am leaning toward ND, with the biggest reason being that during my visits I enjoyed ND a lot more and I don't like cities. ND felt like a better fit for me. But upon more searching:
ND has a higher employment rate.
ND has more placement in PI.
ND has the same placement in my home market (PA/NJ) as Boston.
ND will be cheaper (including COL)

What am I missing?


I think getting to NJ from BU will be much easier than from ND. ND is a great school for the midwest, but BU has a great rep. on the East Coast. I also don't think ND has a higher employment rate, or more placement in PI. I'm not sure about PI in NJ/PA, but we do have a BC/BU recruiting fair in Philly that has NJ firms and generally leads to a few offers (people tend to like to stay in Boston though). We also routinely have people clerk in NJ (at the state level, the district court is insanely competitive). I don't really think you're going to get firms from northeast recruiting directly for ND students.

Good rule of thumb: when looking at regional schools, go to a school in the region you want to practice.

tallgaloot
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:34 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby tallgaloot » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:19 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
I think getting to NJ from BU will be much easier than from ND. ND is a great school for the midwest, but BU has a great rep. on the East Coast. I also don't think ND has a higher employment rate, or more placement in PI. I'm not sure about PI in NJ/PA, but we do have a BC/BU recruiting fair in Philly that has NJ firms and generally leads to a few offers (people tend to like to stay in Boston though). We also routinely have people clerk in NJ (at the state level, the district court is insanely competitive). I don't really think you're going to get firms from northeast recruiting directly for ND students.

Good rule of thumb: when looking at regional schools, go to a school in the region you want to practice.

Granted that BU places better in the northeast. But I wouldn't classify either BU or Notre Dame as regional schools. According to both schools data, ND has a slightly better employment percentage 9 months out (although marginal).

tallgaloot
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:34 pm

Re: Update BU v UIUC v ND vs W&L vs MD vs American vs Penn State

Postby tallgaloot » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:10 pm

Bump.




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