ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where to go? (financial data in post)

Notre Dame
5
19%
William and Mary
6
22%
Temple
16
59%
 
Total votes: 27

masked kavana
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby masked kavana » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:30 pm

Sirius wrote:W&M 1L here --> Stay far far away if you want 1. A job 2. A competent admin 3. enjoy your life


Sorry to ask but could you elaborate?

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arvcondor
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby arvcondor » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:35 pm

Show me this top 10% statistic, "broheim," and I'll finally believe that you're not pulling a round number out of your ass.

eaxjunk
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby eaxjunk » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:53 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
eaxjunk wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Temple isn't bad if you're open to the idea of working in a small Philly firm or a non-preftigiouf local government job.


Not exactly true. I live in Philadelphia and know probably 3 people off the top of my head who went into personal injury and started with a six figure salary (within the last year). Maybe these are what you're calling "small firms," but there is still money to be made with a degree from Temple. It holds a lot of value in Philly and is actually one of the reasons I'm considering attending there over any other school in the region.. short of Penn which is a reach for me.

You know three people, all of whom were probably at the top of their class, or else had preexisting connections. I'm not saying top jobs are strictly impossible to snag from Temple, but it really is an uphill battle in this economy. Philly is a smaller secondary market that is just really beginning to recover from the recession. You can still justifiably go to Temple, just go for cheap and be aware that only ten percent of the class can be in the top ten percent.


You don't need to be in the top 10% of your class to obtain a job. Now preexisting connections I agree with you about. But that should be the goal regardless of where you choose to attend law school. From what I have experienced in my time living in Philly, connections > grades. Therefore Temple is not a bad choice by any means.

HeavenWood
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:54 pm

arvcondor wrote:Show me this top 10% statistic, "broheim," and I'll finally believe that you're not pulling a round number out of your ass.

Ok, sexy. It's pretty easy when you untangle the misleading way lawl skools tend to report employment statistics.

The Class of 2011 had 319 graduates, of whom 293 were employed. 119 of those were employed in law firms. Of those 119, approximately 51% reported their salaries. I say approximately because the 51% figure is based on employed graduates as a whole. Since those with legal jobs more likely got substantive work than, say, "business and industry," the salary report rate for starting lawyers was likely hired. But because those precise statistics are not available, we'll play conservatively and stick with the previous 51% since you're so sure my top 10% estimate is too high (and if that's the case and you're not one of the lucky few at the tippy top of the class, you should probably drop out. 51% of 119 is ~60.69, rounded down to 60 just for you. The top quarter of this 60 earned over $127.5k, which is right around the Philly market rate. So around 15 of 319 people (or just under 5%) got big law jobs. A little over 4% of Temple's class will snag an Article III clerkship in a given year, and given just how competitive those clerkships are, we can safely assume most, if not just about all of them, would have gotten big law had they wanted to. 5% + 4% = 9%. Look at that! The top 9% of the class gets a biglawl/preftigiouf clerkship job. Given that firms don't hire based on straight rank, my top 10% figure is perfectly reasonable, if not slightly too pessimistic, especially after accounting for people who purposefully select into PI/other various fields.

That was fun.
Last edited by HeavenWood on Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:56 pm

eaxjunk wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
eaxjunk wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Temple isn't bad if you're open to the idea of working in a small Philly firm or a non-preftigiouf local government job.


Not exactly true. I live in Philadelphia and know probably 3 people off the top of my head who went into personal injury and started with a six figure salary (within the last year). Maybe these are what you're calling "small firms," but there is still money to be made with a degree from Temple. It holds a lot of value in Philly and is actually one of the reasons I'm considering attending there over any other school in the region.. short of Penn which is a reach for me.

You know three people, all of whom were probably at the top of their class, or else had preexisting connections. I'm not saying top jobs are strictly impossible to snag from Temple, but it really is an uphill battle in this economy. Philly is a smaller secondary market that is just really beginning to recover from the recession. You can still justifiably go to Temple, just go for cheap and be aware that only ten percent of the class can be in the top ten percent.


You don't need to be in the top 10% of your class to obtain a job. Now preexisting connections I agree with you about. But that should be the goal regardless of where you choose to attend law school. From what I have experienced in my time living in Philly, connections > grades. Therefore Temple is not a bad choice by any means.

I didn't say you needed to be top 10% to get a job. Things just get very dicey past around that point. Only 1/3 of the class even got a firm job. I'm not telling you not to go. Just have reasonable expectations and don't pay a lot.

Edit: just stalked all three of yinz poasts. Being Lebanese/a hint Mexican may not help much as far as getting into law school goes, but it can be very useful when applying for jobs. Diversity fairs are your friend. If they can be of substantial aid to Asians, they can be of substantial aid to you.

eaxjunk
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby eaxjunk » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:05 pm

HeavenWood wrote:

Edit: just stalked all three of yinz poasts. Being Lebanese/a hint Mexican may not help much as far as getting into law school goes, but it can be very useful when applying for jobs. Diversity fairs are your friend. If they can be of substantial aid to Asians, they can be of substantial aid to you.


Well since you are the only person to acknowledge my question in that thread, I was under the impression that applying as Mexican would give a slight boost, no? Sorry for the momentary hijack...

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arvcondor
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby arvcondor » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:06 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
arvcondor wrote:Show me this top 10% statistic, "broheim," and I'll finally believe that you're not pulling a round number out of your ass.

Ok, sexy. It's pretty easy when you untangle the misleading way lawl skools tend to report employment statistics.

The Class of 2011 had 319 graduates, of whom 293 were employed. 119 of those were employed in law firms. Of those 119, approximately 51% reported their salaries. I say approximately because the 51% figure is based on employed graduates as a whole. Since those with legal jobs more likely got substantive work than, say, "business and industry," the salary report rate for starting lawyers was likely hired. But because those precise statistics are not available, we'll play conservatively and stick with the previous 51% since you're so sure my top 10% estimate is too high (and if that's the case and you're not one of the lucky few at the tippy top of the class, you should probably drop out. 51% of 119 is ~60.69, rounded down to 60 just for you. The top quarter of this 60 earned over $127.5k, which is right around the Philly market rate. So around 15 of 319 people (or just under 5%) got big law jobs. A little over 4% of Temple's class will snag an Article III clerkship in a given year, and given just how competitive those clerkships are, we can safely assume most, if not just about all of them, would have gotten big law had they wanted to. 5% + 4% = 9%. Look at that! The top 9% of the class gets a biglawl/preftigiouf clerkship job. Given that firms don't hire based on straight rank, my top 10% figure is perfectly reasonable, if not slightly too pessimistic, especially after accounting for people who purposefully select into PI/other various fields.

That was fun.


The "precise numbers" are available from the NLJ 250 list, and they are not 9%. You seem to be under the impression that typing arithmetic endows you with some authority, regardless of the reasoning behind that arithmetic.

edit: Also, I think your number is too low, not too high. And to imply that one should drop out if they aren't capable of getting biglaw is misguided, if not pathological.

HeavenWood
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:08 pm

eaxjunk wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:

Edit: just stalked all three of yinz poasts. Being Lebanese/a hint Mexican may not help much as far as getting into law school goes, but it can be very useful when applying for jobs. Diversity fairs are your friend. If they can be of substantial aid to Asians, they can be of substantial aid to you.


Well since you are the only person to acknowledge my question in that thread, I was under the impression that applying as Mexican would give a slight boost, no? Sorry for the momentary hijack...

1/4 Mexican? Maybe if you write a good diversity essay. I'd personally be suspicious, but FWIW I'm not an adcomm. I'd say it's worth a shot.

eaxjunk
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby eaxjunk » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:11 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
eaxjunk wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:

Edit: just stalked all three of yinz poasts. Being Lebanese/a hint Mexican may not help much as far as getting into law school goes, but it can be very useful when applying for jobs. Diversity fairs are your friend. If they can be of substantial aid to Asians, they can be of substantial aid to you.


Well since you are the only person to acknowledge my question in that thread, I was under the impression that applying as Mexican would give a slight boost, no? Sorry for the momentary hijack...

1/4 Mexican? Maybe if you write a good diversity essay. I'd personally be suspicious, but FWIW I'm not an adcomm. I'd say it's worth a shot.


I would not apply as 1/4. My last name is Mexican and I look the part. I don't care if you judge me for it. Oh and my diversity statement is definitely unique.
Last edited by eaxjunk on Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:11 pm

arvcondor wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
arvcondor wrote:Show me this top 10% statistic, "broheim," and I'll finally believe that you're not pulling a round number out of your ass.

Ok, sexy. It's pretty easy when you untangle the misleading way lawl skools tend to report employment statistics.

The Class of 2011 had 319 graduates, of whom 293 were employed. 119 of those were employed in law firms. Of those 119, approximately 51% reported their salaries. I say approximately because the 51% figure is based on employed graduates as a whole. Since those with legal jobs more likely got substantive work than, say, "business and industry," the salary report rate for starting lawyers was likely hired. But because those precise statistics are not available, we'll play conservatively and stick with the previous 51% since you're so sure my top 10% estimate is too high (and if that's the case and you're not one of the lucky few at the tippy top of the class, you should probably drop out. 51% of 119 is ~60.69, rounded down to 60 just for you. The top quarter of this 60 earned over $127.5k, which is right around the Philly market rate. So around 15 of 319 people (or just under 5%) got big law jobs. A little over 4% of Temple's class will snag an Article III clerkship in a given year, and given just how competitive those clerkships are, we can safely assume most, if not just about all of them, would have gotten big law had they wanted to. 5% + 4% = 9%. Look at that! The top 9% of the class gets a biglawl/preftigiouf clerkship job. Given that firms don't hire based on straight rank, my top 10% figure is perfectly reasonable, if not slightly too pessimistic, especially after accounting for people who purposefully select into PI/other various fields.

That was fun.


The "precise numbers" are available from the NLJ 250 list, and they are not 9%. You seem to be under the impression that typing arithmetic endows you with some authority, regardless of the reasoning behind that arithmetic.

edit: Also, I think your number is too low, not too high. And to imply that one should drop out if they aren't capable of getting biglaw is misguided, if not pathological.

Hey brah, I said 5% gets big law, which does match up with the NLJ list. That plus the 4% of federal clerks = 9% big law competitive. Nice try though.

If you aren't paying much, that's fine. I was just trying to be helpful ;)

HeavenWood
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:12 pm

eaxjunk wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
eaxjunk wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:

Edit: just stalked all three of yinz poasts. Being Lebanese/a hint Mexican may not help much as far as getting into law school goes, but it can be very useful when applying for jobs. Diversity fairs are your friend. If they can be of substantial aid to Asians, they can be of substantial aid to you.


Well since you are the only person to acknowledge my question in that thread, I was under the impression that applying as Mexican would give a slight boost, no? Sorry for the momentary hijack...

1/4 Mexican? Maybe if you write a good diversity essay. I'd personally be suspicious, but FWIW I'm not an adcomm. I'd say it's worth a shot.


I would not apply as 1/4. My last name is Mexican and I look the part. I don't care if you judge me for it.

Lewl I didn't say I would judge you, just that if I were an adcomm I might doubt your sincerity. No shame in playing all the angles. Don't be so touchy, bubbie.

eaxjunk
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby eaxjunk » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:16 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
I would not apply as 1/4. My last name is Mexican and I look the part. I don't care if you judge me for it.
Lewl I didn't say I would judge you, just that if I were an adcomm I might doubt your sincerity. No shame in playing all the angles. Don't be so touchy, bubbie.


I'm not, I just assumed that would be the general reaction given what I've read on here so far. Thanks for your input. To the OP: don't worry about made up assumptions and percentages, just pull through and make yourself known and liked. Attend where you want to live?

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arvcondor
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby arvcondor » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:16 pm

It's 12% that get big law, plus the 4% who get the clerkships. That's 16%. The point of all this is that the "top 10%" mantra that's repeated on this site is inexact and annoying.

HeavenWood
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:18 pm

arvcondor wrote:It's 12% that get big law, plus the 4% who get the clerkships. That's 16%. The point of all this is that the "top 10%" mantra that's repeated on this site is inexact and annoying.

Dude new numbers were released. This year's figured are under 6% NLJ 250.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

Edit: sorry, 6.9% which matches up given that a couple Philly NLJ250s are actually large midlaw.

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arvcondor
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby arvcondor » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:27 pm

:oops:

OP, if you want biglaw from Temple, you need to be top 10%.

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Cosmo Kramer
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:43 pm

arvcondor wrote::oops:

OP, if you want biglaw from Temple, you need to be top 10%.


I'll clear this up - top 10% for biglaw, top 20% for firm job, the rest is a crapshoot. People within those numbers do strike out, people outside do get jobs normally reserved for those numbers. But as has been said, those are hard to predict because there are a lot of factors that go into getting them.

wired
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby wired » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:29 pm

masked kavana wrote:
Sirius wrote:W&M 1L here --> Stay far far away if you want 1. A job 2. A competent admin 3. enjoy your life


Sorry to ask but could you elaborate?



I am not the original hater you're quoting. I disagree terribly with his/her analysis. We have had competitive placement for our ranking (87 or 89% employed at 9 months, another 4% of the class chose to pursue additional education which isn't counted in the employment number). The administration is incredibly competent and responsive. As for enjoying life, I guess you get out of it what you put into it. For what it's worth, I've loved being at W&M. Have never felt like the students are hyper-competitive and it's been generally supportive.

stressed2010
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby stressed2010 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:56 pm

To be fair those NJL numbers are reflective of some of the worst years in OCI - Temple's numbers weren't the only ones down...look at Fordham, some place top 40% were once "guaranteed" big law jobs...they were down to 19% last year. In any case, from anecdotal information this year's Temple OCI was much more successful. One thing I will say though is that our career services office has been pretty cagey about OCI. At all the events they've held about OCI no one has ever said "Let's be real here only to 10% should apply." I've heard that a 3.5 and above is generally what one needs to have a choice of screener interviews...I think that's roughly top 15% or something. So those numbers being quoted aren't totally off but I don't imagine OP will be facing top 6% odds by the time he/she is doing OCI in what 2013 or 2014 whatever it comes out to be. Just my two cents but I will agree that the job prospects keep me up at night.

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arvcondor
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby arvcondor » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:08 pm

^^Yeah, our admin does entertain the illusion that the only thing standing between you and becoming a SCOTUS justice is hard work. But I've come to realize that the alternative of admitting stark realities is probably not the best idea.

stressed2010
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby stressed2010 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:15 pm

Well at least we received an A+ on the National Jurists Transparency List! So proud of that! (not really). Then I checked the website and realized how truly screwed we were. But as one grain of hope our 1L class is only 220 people versus the mammoth 319 that graduated last year. So those 30 or so people who got a firm job at a place that has at least 100 attorneys will make up a larger percentage of our 220.

stressed2010
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby stressed2010 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:18 pm

I will also add that it hurts to be ridiculed by a Penn student even if his statistics were accurate. Come on man, give us tier 2 losers a break! :lol:

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arvcondor
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby arvcondor » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:25 pm

Eh, I don't think Heaven Wood was ridiculing Temple folk, he was just (brusquely) reciting some numbers.

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Lawquacious
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby Lawquacious » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:38 pm

Of choices, given your situation, if you are set on going to law school, Temple.

HeavenWood
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:48 pm

arvcondor wrote:Eh, I don't think Heaven Wood was ridiculing Temple folk, he was just (brusquely) reciting some numbers.

You are correct, I was not at all ridiculing. Those numbers I recited also happen to add up, which is good because it shows that although Temple chooses a misleading way to present their employment statistics (like most law schools) it isn't all-out lying with regard to this information.

mrslaw2014
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Re: ND (sticker) vs. W&M (8k) vs. Temple (In-state + 12.5k)

Postby mrslaw2014 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:22 pm

masked kavana wrote:
Sirius wrote:W&M 1L here --> Stay far far away if you want 1. A job 2. A competent admin 3. enjoy your life


Sorry to ask but could you elaborate?


W&M 1L here. This point makes no sense. I haven't heard anyone having any trouble finding jobs right now, at least not any more trouble than everyone else. I don't know anyone without a summer job at this point. The competent admin point is also ridiculous. The 1L class acted like idiots at an event during fall semester and the administration handled it well. The SBA, on the other hand, sent out an email that made it to above the law. Our rankings dropped this year (there is more information on some of the other W&M threads- short version, W&M doesn't stack employment data as some other schools do *cough*arizona*cough*) and our administration also handled that well. The administration is very open and transparent and easy to deal with. The biggest complaint from students this semester is the legal skills program. The current 1L class got thrown in the middle of the legal skills overhaul so we are getting half of the old program and half of the new program, which is difficult to deal with. The new program is going to be MUCH better, though, and is replacing some of the more outdated elements of the old program while keeping the great parts of the old program.

As far as where you should go, W&M is a great school. We have a strong showing in the DC market, the Richmond market, and we dominate the eastern peninsular Virginia market. Keep in mind that in DC and NoVa, there is a lot of competition from other schools. A large portion of the class ends up in DC, but not everyone. We do have a very strong con law program (BORG is a GREAT journal, active Bill of Rights society, etc.) but we don't make much of a showing in big law at all. It has its ups and downs, really.

Honestly, though, I'd take the scholarship. I wouldn't have come to W&M without a fat scholarship.




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