One last time - making a poll this time

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school

LSU (full scholarship - potentially no debt)
33
52%
Tulane (75K scholarship - min 60K debt, max about 100K)
5
8%
UVA (no scholarship - minimum of 150, max of 210 K debt)
25
40%
 
Total votes: 63

theduffman
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One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:41 pm

Want to practice in New Orleans. Long-term girlfriend is waitlisted at Loyola New Orleans and LSU, and would be much happier coming back to Louisiana. I have done a ton of research, spoken to many attorneys in New Orleans, and have a number of other sources of information; I just would like this last source before the deposit deadline April 16.

rad lulz
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:09 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:18 pm

rad lulz wrote:Here's the deal broheim.

UVA will probs give you a solid shot at good jobs in LA. However, if you don't get one, you might find yourself wanting to take a biglaw jerb in NYC because you have 210k in debt. Your woman probs won't like that.

Depending on how srs u are with this honey, I could see just picking between LSU and Tulane according to where your GF gets in (though I suggest she retake the LSAT).

Solid logic. Just to clarify, we're probably getting married/been together about 6 years

rad lulz
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:28 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:08 am

So, to utilize the more therapeutic functions of TLS, I'm gonna work out some thoughts and let people pick them apart.

So, I want two main things out of law school:
1) good time, good friends/connections, good memories. Law school can be a ton of fun and I can make some of my best friends here; I've made a few great friends in undergrad, but, being on the debate team, I was sadly traveling or busy most weekends during the semester. I want a law school that is fun, enjoyable, and allows me to make some great connections.
- LSU = fun b/c I love south Louisiana, big state school etc. Law school has a tailgate for every football game, 2 and 3Ls, and a very small number of 1Ls, get tickets to the games. I feel like I could work hard and play hard and stay pretty close to the top of my class.
- Tulane = New Orleans... nuff said
- UVA - everyone tells me it is super laid back, tons of fun. I'm a little worried that I would get tempted into taking one of two paths: study all the time, have no fun, and do well, or accept that I'm probably going to get a good job at the middle of the class and just try to have as much fun as possible. However, I also feel like I could make some amazing friends that will do great things one day, and potentially do some great things myself.

2) invest in my future. Just in terms of pure career prospects, I feel pretty confident about just getting a job out of any of these law schools.
- LSU - as long as one is content working in Louisiana, it is not difficult to find a job out of LSU. While I cannot by any means guarantee good grades in law school, I am going to work very hard and do targeted work (I have a lot of support from older law school students/going to read the diff books/articles about succeeding in law school). I am a little worried that I would feel a little frustrated without a serious, intellectual challenge, like I would ostensibly find at UVA. I'm also a little worried that I will regret not having some great opportunities/national connections. On the other hand, I love Louisiana, and would love to make a bunch of connections throughout the state. Graduating with no debt would also be nice, both in terms of no anxiety and in terms of career flexibility. Also, a lot of people have made the argument that there are still going to be very smart people at LSU; I believe this, especially after going to ASW and speaking with multiple people that turned down T20 schools for LSU w/ a good scholarship.

- Tulane - good middle ground - if I want to stay in Louisiana, I can take a good deal of civil law classes and get a job in New Orleans. If I do very well, I would have a pretty decent shot getting a job somewhere else if I'd like, with a very reasonable amount of debt.

- UVA - I could make great national connections, meet people that will be in high places on day, have as good of a chance as I can give myself to get a good clerkship, and have the brand name degree for the rest of my life. I could get a job pretty much anywhere in the country, I'd have a great shot at a good firm job in New Orleans and maybe even practice abroad for a bit. Every alum I've talked to has also said UVA was the best 3 years of their life. If I'm going to spend the rest of my life in New Orleans (ostensibly), it might be a good idea to get some great life experience on the east coast. However, as radlulz pointed out, there's that risk that I miss out on a New Orleans firm and am forced into taking a job somewhere I don't want to be (I like New York, but I like hot weather, spicy food, lakes etc. Also, lady friend would be unhappy there). In terms of debt, if I didn't have a choice, I probably wouldn't be as upset about taking out a lot of debt, however with the opportunity to graduate without debt, 6 digit debt is scary. I'm worried about it forcing the job I have to take, forcing my location and creating a lot of stress. However, there's that slim chance I get a good clerkship, maybe even a clerkship with the Supreme Court, and get a great bonus + great paying job and pay off my debt very quickly.. I would also LOVE to have UVA on my resume..

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:39 pm

theduffman wrote:So, to utilize the more therapeutic functions of TLS, I'm gonna work out some thoughts and let people pick them apart.

So, I want two main things out of law school:
1) good time, good friends/connections, good memories. Law school can be a ton of fun and I can make some of my best friends here; I've made a few great friends in undergrad, but, being on the debate team, I was sadly traveling or busy most weekends during the semester. I want a law school that is fun, enjoyable, and allows me to make some great connections.
- LSU = fun b/c I love south Louisiana, big state school etc. Law school has a tailgate for every football game, 2 and 3Ls, and a very small number of 1Ls, get tickets to the games. I feel like I could work hard and play hard and stay pretty close to the top of my class.
- Tulane = New Orleans... nuff said
- UVA - everyone tells me it is super laid back, tons of fun. I'm a little worried that I would get tempted into taking one of two paths: study all the time, have no fun, and do well, or accept that I'm probably going to get a good job at the middle of the class and just try to have as much fun as possible. However, I also feel like I could make some amazing friends that will do great things one day, and potentially do some great things myself.

2) invest in my future. Just in terms of pure career prospects, I feel pretty confident about just getting a job out of any of these law schools.
- LSU - as long as one is content working in Louisiana, it is not difficult to find a job out of LSU. While I cannot by any means guarantee good grades in law school, I am going to work very hard and do targeted work (I have a lot of support from older law school students/going to read the diff books/articles about succeeding in law school). I am a little worried that I would feel a little frustrated without a serious, intellectual challenge, like I would ostensibly find at UVA. I'm also a little worried that I will regret not having some great opportunities/national connections. On the other hand, I love Louisiana, and would love to make a bunch of connections throughout the state. Graduating with no debt would also be nice, both in terms of no anxiety and in terms of career flexibility. Also, a lot of people have made the argument that there are still going to be very smart people at LSU; I believe this, especially after going to ASW and speaking with multiple people that turned down T20 schools for LSU w/ a good scholarship.

- Tulane - good middle ground - if I want to stay in Louisiana, I can take a good deal of civil law classes and get a job in New Orleans. If I do very well, I would have a pretty decent shot getting a job somewhere else if I'd like, with a very reasonable amount of debt.

- UVA - I could make great national connections, meet people that will be in high places on day, have as good of a chance as I can give myself to get a good clerkship, and have the brand name degree for the rest of my life. I could get a job pretty much anywhere in the country, I'd have a great shot at a good firm job in New Orleans and maybe even practice abroad for a bit. Every alum I've talked to has also said UVA was the best 3 years of their life. If I'm going to spend the rest of my life in New Orleans (ostensibly), it might be a good idea to get some great life experience on the east coast. However, as radlulz pointed out, there's that risk that I miss out on a New Orleans firm and am forced into taking a job somewhere I don't want to be (I like New York, but I like hot weather, spicy food, lakes etc. Also, lady friend would be unhappy there). In terms of debt, if I didn't have a choice, I probably wouldn't be as upset about taking out a lot of debt, however with the opportunity to graduate without debt, 6 digit debt is scary. I'm worried about it forcing the job I have to take, forcing my location and creating a lot of stress. However, there's that slim chance I get a good clerkship, maybe even a clerkship with the Supreme Court, and get a great bonus + great paying job and pay off my debt very quickly.. I would also LOVE to have UVA on my resume..


Anybody have any thoughts about how they would view this? Opinions welcome

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StarLightSpectre
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby StarLightSpectre » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:48 pm

Why doesn't your girl/lady friend retake? A few points could potentially get her W&M, Richmond, or something in or around VA. You're severely limiting your potential returns by going to LSU. Tulane is a better options but I don't think it's quite middle ground. You're giving up way too much and still going in debt. This would be more of a toss up if it was near full scholly at Tulane.

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:06 pm

StarLightSpectre wrote:Why doesn't your girl/lady friend retake? A few points could potentially get her W&M, Richmond, or something in or around VA. You're severely limiting your potential returns by going to LSU. Tulane is a better options but I don't think it's quite middle ground. You're giving up way too much and still going in debt. This would be more of a toss up if it was near full scholly at Tulane.


Yeah :/ Tulane has a strict no negotiation policy.. which is lame, because I feel like I have a pretty good argument for raising my scholarship...

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bk1
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:23 pm

theduffman wrote:Anybody have any thoughts about how they would view this? Opinions welcome


1. I don't see why UVA would change your study habits. It's also not a binary pair. You can go out and have fun while still putting in enough work to do well (you'll likely do little going out right before finals but that's only two months a year).

2. Why is it not difficult to find a job out of LSU? Over 1/4 of LSU students fail to get full time, JD required jobs. That's not horrible (and is on par with other schools that do well in their region), but it's still a pretty significant risk. Maybe I'm defining "difficult" differently than you.

3. Having less debt does mean more career flexibility. But that flexibility is towards low paying jobs like insurance defense, personal injury, etc. I'm not sure I'd call that flexibility the kind that anyone really wants.

4. You of course can't count on good grades.

5. I think the NYC thing is spot on. If you aren't okay with the very real possibility of having to work in NYC, I probably wouldn't take any T14 at sticker (maybe with a few exceptions).

6. I think your lady friend and your level of okay-ness with NYC are the overriding factors.

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:12 pm

bk1 wrote:
theduffman wrote:Anybody have any thoughts about how they would view this? Opinions welcome


1. I don't see why UVA would change your study habits. It's also not a binary pair. You can go out and have fun while still putting in enough work to do well (you'll likely do little going out right before finals but that's only two months a year).

It's more of a concern, less of a rational choice; my friend Matt is a Yale law student and said he feels that those people aiming for Supreme Court clerkships don't have any fun in law school. I guess his observation has gotten to me a little bit.

2. Why is it not difficult to find a job out of LSU? Over 1/4 of LSU students fail to get full time, JD required jobs. That's not horrible (and is on par with other schools that do well in their region), but it's still a pretty significant risk. Maybe I'm defining "difficult" differently than you.

What data is that based on? According to --LinkRemoved-- , 73% = full time employment with a bar-required job. I could do some math, but I don't interpret that as meaning 27% = completely unable to get a JD required job that they wanted; still gotta consider your grad schoolers/ not pursuing a JD job/ perhaps just wanted their JD. If all else fails, I have a couple of law firms with very very close connections and feel pretty confident about getting jobs there.

3. Having less debt does mean more career flexibility. But that flexibility is towards low paying jobs like insurance defense, personal injury, etc. I'm not sure I'd call that flexibility the kind that anyone really wants.

I'd definitely ragequit life if I had to do insurance defense... I would try to pursue a job with my undergrad degree if it came to that.

4. You of course can't count on good grades.

5. I think the NYC thing is spot on. If you aren't okay with the very real possibility of having to work in NYC, I probably wouldn't take any T14 at sticker (maybe with a few exceptions).

6. I think your lady friend and your level of okay-ness with NYC are the overriding factors.

Thank you for your input!

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bk1
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:19 pm

I was using LST. Their most recent data is rosier (only 20% don't have full time, permanent, JD jobs). Source: http://www.law.lsu.edu/index.cfm?geaux= ... mentsalary I'm also not sure what to make of the 23 state clerkships. They are of course short-term (probably 1 year, maybe 2). I don't really know anything about state clerkships, but I suspect they'll be able to at least get small firm jobs, but it is something to consider.

I think it's important to consider the type of work you'd do coming from LSU/Tulane. A plurality of LSU grads work for small firms. Do you really want to do the kind of work that small firms do? Though alternatively if you want to do something that large firms do, like M&A/VC/white collar/etc, it's important to reiterate that you're should make sure you're okay with NYC.

CanadianWolf
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:32 pm

Let's get to the real issue: Top notch SEC football or mediocre ACC basketball ?

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spleenworship
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby spleenworship » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:02 pm

I voted LSU, but go to Tulane if your chick gets in there.

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:51 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Let's get to the real issue: Top notch SEC football or mediocre ACC basketball ?


haha I know, right?? Coming from OU, I'm definitely going to be missing out concerning football at UVA...

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:53 pm

bk1 wrote:I was using LST. Their most recent data is rosier (only 20% don't have full time, permanent, JD jobs). Source: http://www.law.lsu.edu/index.cfm?geaux= ... mentsalary I'm also not sure what to make of the 23 state clerkships. They are of course short-term (probably 1 year, maybe 2). I don't really know anything about state clerkships, but I suspect they'll be able to at least get small firm jobs, but it is something to consider.

I think it's important to consider the type of work you'd do coming from LSU/Tulane. A plurality of LSU grads work for small firms. Do you really want to do the kind of work that small firms do? Though alternatively if you want to do something that large firms do, like M&A/VC/white collar/etc, it's important to reiterate that you're should make sure you're okay with NYC.


Well, as stated before, I would definitely hate myself if I had to do insurance defense. I definitely want to do litigation of some sort.. I did debate for a long time, so I really look forward to the idea of the competitive/gamey aspect of criminal law. I also am a dirty liberal, so I'd love to do environmental law, plaintiff employment law work, maybe some public defense work... My terminal goals would be: Law professor, judge, maybe politics... The possibility of politics in Louisiana is one of the reasons I really like the idea of going to LSU.. try to make some local connections and stuff. However, the ambiguity in terms of EXACT practice area I want has been used as a persuasive argument for UVA...

Also strongly considered doing some energy law, which LSU does pretty well, though I would feel dirty just doing transactional work for an oil and gas company... as lucrative as it would be.
Last edited by theduffman on Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby Mr. Somebody » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:55 pm

theduffman wrote:
bk1 wrote:I was using LST. Their most recent data is rosier (only 20% don't have full time, permanent, JD jobs). Source: http://www.law.lsu.edu/index.cfm?geaux= ... mentsalary I'm also not sure what to make of the 23 state clerkships. They are of course short-term (probably 1 year, maybe 2). I don't really know anything about state clerkships, but I suspect they'll be able to at least get small firm jobs, but it is something to consider.

I think it's important to consider the type of work you'd do coming from LSU/Tulane. A plurality of LSU grads work for small firms. Do you really want to do the kind of work that small firms do? Though alternatively if you want to do something that large firms do, like M&A/VC/white collar/etc, it's important to reiterate that you're should make sure you're okay with NYC.


Well, as stated before, I would definitely hate myself if I had to do insurance defense. I definitely want to do litigation of some sort.. I did debate for a long time, so I really look forward to the idea of the competitive/gamey aspect of criminal law. I also am a dirty liberal, so I'd love to do environmental law, plaintiff employment law work, maybe some public defense work... My terminal goals would be: Law professor, judge, maybe politics... The possibility of politics in Louisiana is one of the reasons I really like the idea of going to LSU.. try to make some local connections and stuff. However, the ambiguity in terms of EXACT practice area I want has been used as a persuasive argument for UVA...


Since you're so PI focused, would you hate yourself if you had to do biglaw?

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:57 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
theduffman wrote:
bk1 wrote:I was using LST. Their most recent data is rosier (only 20% don't have full time, permanent, JD jobs). Source: http://www.law.lsu.edu/index.cfm?geaux= ... mentsalary I'm also not sure what to make of the 23 state clerkships. They are of course short-term (probably 1 year, maybe 2). I don't really know anything about state clerkships, but I suspect they'll be able to at least get small firm jobs, but it is something to consider.

I think it's important to consider the type of work you'd do coming from LSU/Tulane. A plurality of LSU grads work for small firms. Do you really want to do the kind of work that small firms do? Though alternatively if you want to do something that large firms do, like M&A/VC/white collar/etc, it's important to reiterate that you're should make sure you're okay with NYC.


Well, as stated before, I would definitely hate myself if I had to do insurance defense. I definitely want to do litigation of some sort.. I did debate for a long time, so I really look forward to the idea of the competitive/gamey aspect of criminal law. I also am a dirty liberal, so I'd love to do environmental law, plaintiff employment law work, maybe some public defense work... My terminal goals would be: Law professor, judge, maybe politics... The possibility of politics in Louisiana is one of the reasons I really like the idea of going to LSU.. try to make some local connections and stuff. However, the ambiguity in terms of EXACT practice area I want has been used as a persuasive argument for UVA...


Since you're so PI focused, would you hate yourself if you had to do biglaw?



Um, I feel like I would not enjoy just facilitating a bunch of business transactions... I wouldn't mind pulling a lot of hours as long as I felt like the work was rewarding. I also do want to make SOME money/not stay in PI forever

keg411
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby keg411 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:05 pm

If you go to LSU, you will never be a law professor. However, you will probably never be one from UVA either, so I suppose it doesn't matter.

I think no matter what Tulane should be out; it's really LSU vs. UVA. I think based on your goals and what you seem to want out of law school (especially career) that you should just go to LSU for free. However, if the only reason that you don't want to go to UVA is because your Yale-friend freaked you out about how much people study... then you have some major blinders about what type of doors a T10 school can open for you. Though on the converse side, you don't seem to have any desire to do BigLaw, so there's no reason to take on the debt.

Personally, I think you should just go to LSU based on your goals. But I think you need to tell your girlfriend to either re-take the LSAT or try to talk her into considering another career.

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:56 pm

keg411 wrote:If you go to LSU, you will never be a law professor. However, you will probably never be one from UVA either, so I suppose it doesn't matter.

I think no matter what Tulane should be out; it's really LSU vs. UVA. I think based on your goals and what you seem to want out of law school (especially career) that you should just go to LSU for free. However, if the only reason that you don't want to go to UVA is because your Yale-friend freaked you out about how much people study... then you have some major blinders about what type of doors a T10 school can open for you. Though on the converse side, you don't seem to have any desire to do BigLaw, so there's no reason to take on the debt.

Personally, I think you should just go to LSU based on your goals. But I think you need to tell your girlfriend to either re-take the LSAT or try to talk her into considering another career.


The Yale friend didn't freak me out about competition at UVA - I am fine with doing a lot of work. It was more that I'm worried I might be tempted to do that to myself because I realize what kind of opportunities I could have being at the tip-top of my class at UVA.

Why don't you think I could be a law school professor out of UVA? I would love to be a prof @ Tulane and they have professors from UCLA, Michigan, a bunch from Tulane, Vanderbilt, Kansas, and even a couple from LSU/Loyola?

Also, gf is probably going to work for a bit and re-take then re-apply... I think the point I was trying to make was just that she doesn't want to be in Virginia.

rad lulz
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:57 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

theduffman
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby theduffman » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:03 pm

rad lulz wrote:Dawg go do a google search about the meat market and how many people from schools become professors. Chances are infinitesimally small.


I haven't really done any research on it - I'll look into it. Is that the reason people always say you want Yale for academia?

rad lulz
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:06 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby keg411 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:22 pm

rad lulz wrote:
theduffman wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Dawg go do a google search about the meat market and how many people from schools become professors. Chances are infinitesimally small.


I haven't really done any research on it - I'll look into it. Is that the reason people always say you want Yale for academia?

YHS and probably Chi too, but web then, chances are pretty damn low. You have to not only do well, put publish shit people actually want to read, and getting a badass clerkship is almost a prerequisite.


You also have to want to publish and research shit too. Legal academia is mind-numbingly horrible and like rad said, the barriers to entry are pretty damn hard.

There are also people who become "professors from practice", but then you basically have to be a rockstar in whatever field you end up going into.

rad lulz
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Re: One last time - making a poll this time

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:44 pm

.




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