Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Cleveland-Marshall ($5k a year) vs. Case Western ($30k a year)

Cleveland-Marshall ($5k a year tuition)
10
40%
Case Western Reserve ($30k a year tuition)
15
60%
 
Total votes: 25

OhioRider22
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Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:28 pm

Alright, TLS'ers, what say you? I'm looking for constructive advice and opinions on whether I should attend C-M with a $16,000 a year scholarship, bringing my yearly tuition down to about $5,000 a year, or Case Western Reserve with a $12,000 a year scholarship, bringing my yearly tuition down to $30,000 per year. The C-M scholly does have a 3.2 stip, which is equal to top 30%. Supposedly 75% of recipients keep this level of scholarship, but still, very scary. Case's stip is just good academic standing.

I'm a native Clevelander with strong ties to the area and some substantial legal connections, although by no means a guarunteed job upon graduation. I fully plan on staying in Cleveland upon graduation and long term, hence the reason I've narrowed it down to these schools. I'm extremely debt-averse, which is why I'm leaning heavily towards C-M, unless Case offers me more money. I'm currently thinking about criminal law or possibly health law, due to Cleveland's extremely strong health care field and my family's background in health care. Oh, and it interests me. Truth be told, I'm not really sure what area of law I want to specialize in. I'd like to keep as many options open as possible, including government and Cleveland big law.

Looking for knowledgeable opinions, no useless TTT bashing please. If it's relevant and founded, then that is fine, I'll take it all into account. Posters from Ohio, and especially Cleveland, will probably hold more sway. Thanks.

Alan
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Alan » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:12 pm

You have good reason to be weary of the top 1/3 stip. Your best bet is to retake. If you must choose a school this cycle, go to Marshall since you are ok with working in Clevland. If you are not in the top 1/3, drop out.

Case @ 30k/yr + COL(???) = probably 100+ k not including interest.

What are your numbers?
Last edited by Alan on Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:16 pm

If we were talking about a native Clevelander at Case at 5k/year tuition, I'd say Case all the way. But 30k is too much for Case. You'd be looking at well over 100k in debt for Case, and that's just not smart for a school with limited geographic portability and mediocre/poor big firm placement.

On the other hand, if you have any thoughts at all of Cleveland biglaw, you can pretty much kiss them goodbye if you go to C-M. Cleveland is not a big market. It is really hard to justify having so many schools in Ohio, and you are at the bottom of the barrel for the limited number of firm jobs in Cleveland if you go there. Plus you have brutal stipulations on your scholarship, which makes it even less appealing.

Would you be living at home?

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cinephile
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby cinephile » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:19 pm

Among the options you have now, I'd take the CM scholarship if and only if you can relax that stip.

But really, for someone from Ohio and wants to stay, your best bet is retake for OSU. It's a better school and even without a scholarship, the in-state tuition is cheaper than the offer you have at Case.

OhioRider22
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:21 pm

Alan wrote:You have good reason to be weary of the top 1/3 stip. Your best bet is to retake. If you must choose a school this cycle, go to Marshall if you are ok with working in Clevland. If you are not in the top 1/3, drop out. Case @ 30k/yr + COL(10k/yr) =120k not including interest. That's too much.


Agreed. This is most likely my plan as of now, take the money at C-M and drop out if I don't finish in the top third. I'm sure that would be difficult to follow through with, but I'm willing to do it, since debt and the current state of the legal field scares the shit out of me.

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:23 pm

Case student here.

Your situation is the rare one where going to a T3 might make sense. Like you, I am extremely debt-averse and only went to CWRU because the cost of attendance was very low for me AND I am from Ohio. I have to disclose that I know f all about Marshall, other than that it does snag a fair % of local jobs by virtue of the alumni network, but overall its placement does lag Case, but not by as much as you might think, at least according to the latest US News stats. And if you ever want to work somewhere else, you'll have to make that change based on ties you make after graduation, because CSU does not place outside Northeast Ohio (check Martindale if you don't believe me). But that's the principle difference, and you can account for some that by people going back to their 'home' markets from Case.

Case is more connected to the healthcare industry locally, especially UH, but I have no idea how that translates to jobs, if at all. Most of the people I know in Health Law are actually doing intern/externships doing health law, but again, I don't know how many of them will be potential hires at graduation - you should ask Case about that when you ask for more money. And ask for more money. Tell them you're from the area, that CSU will be ridiculously cheap, etc. - probably won't get more than a few thousand more if anything, but nothing to lose...

If we just consider cost, target market, and placement, eh, you can definitely consider CSU. Assume the worst case, you lose your scholarship, so you pay, what, 6K, 20k, 20k = 50k + COL, compared to 90k + COL, and with likely larger tuition increases at Case than at Marshall. Depends how debt averse you are. Case is better, but you need to decide what that's worth to you.

If we take 'retake or don't go' into the conversation, well, could you get into OSU? Notre Dame? Are you one great LSAT away from a T20, where sticker price might be worthwhile?

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:26 pm

romothesavior wrote:If we were talking about a native Clevelander at Case at 5k/year tuition, I'd say Case all the way. But 30k is too much for Case. You'd be looking at well over 100k in debt for Case, and that's just not smart for a school with limited geographic portability and mediocre/poor big firm placement.

On the other hand, if you have any thoughts at all of Cleveland biglaw, you can pretty much kiss them goodbye if you go to C-M. Cleveland is not a big market. It is really hard to justify having so many schools in Ohio, and you are at the bottom of the barrel for the limited number of firm jobs in Cleveland if you go there. Plus you have brutal stipulations on your scholarship, which makes it even less appealing.

Would you be living at home?


I would not be living at home, I am in my later twenties and my family lives a solid hour away, although I definitely considered it. I can get by at my current downtown place for $10K a year living expenses. And yes, there are too many law schools in Ohio. And although I know everyone uses this justification for attending some TTT's, as a native Clevelander who knows a good amount of alumni in the area I can say that C-M is well respected in Cleveland (and only Cleveland). But I am aware of the reality that rep doesn't really matter all that much if there just aren't jobs.

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romothesavior
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:28 pm

OhioRider22 wrote:
Alan wrote:You have good reason to be weary of the top 1/3 stip. Your best bet is to retake. If you must choose a school this cycle, go to Marshall if you are ok with working in Clevland. If you are not in the top 1/3, drop out. Case @ 30k/yr + COL(10k/yr) =120k not including interest. That's too much.


Agreed. This is most likely my plan as of now, take the money at C-M and drop out if I don't finish in the top third. I'm sure that would be difficult to follow through with, but I'm willing to do it, since debt and the current state of the legal field scares the shit out of me.

OP, why is retake and go to tOSU/Case for cheap not an option? That would be a LOT easier and more reasonable than going to C-M and dropping out if you don't make top 1/3, and it would also make getting a legal job a lot easier. Why not consider that?

ETA: You are right that even if C-M is "respected," that may not matter in the job department. A lot of people use this vague notion of "respect" to justify going to a TTT in a tiny oversaturated market without realizing just how few jobs are actually in that market. Cleveland is a pretty small legal market and is in a state with way too many law schools. Even if Cleveland employers completely ignored the T14 and all other schools in the state like tOSU, it would be hard to place every Case/C-M student into decent jobs in the market. They can't create jobs that don't exist, even for students that they respect.

I think C-M for 60k is better than Case for 130k+, but both are pretty questionable ITE. I think retake is definitely the best bet.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:36 pm

Ersatz Haderach wrote:Case student here.

Your situation is the rare one where going to a T3 might make sense. Like you, I am extremely debt-averse and only went to CWRU because the cost of attendance was very low for me AND I am from Ohio. I have to disclose that I know f all about Marshall, other than that it does snag a fair % of local jobs by virtue of the alumni network, but overall its placement does lag Case, but not by as much as you might think, at least according to the latest US News stats. And if you ever want to work somewhere else, you'll have to make that change based on ties you make after graduation, because CSU does not place outside Northeast Ohio (check Martindale if you don't believe me). But that's the principle difference, and you can account for some that by people going back to their 'home' markets from Case.

Case is more connected to the healthcare industry locally, especially UH, but I have no idea how that translates to jobs, if at all. Most of the people I know in Health Law are actually doing intern/externships doing health law, but again, I don't know how many of them will be potential hires at graduation - you should ask Case about that when you ask for more money. And ask for more money. Tell them you're from the area, that CSU will be ridiculously cheap, etc. - probably won't get more than a few thousand more if anything, but nothing to lose...

If we just consider cost, target market, and placement, eh, you can definitely consider CSU. Assume the worst case, you lose your scholarship, so you pay, what, 6K, 20k, 20k = 50k + COL, compared to 90k + COL, and with likely larger tuition increases at Case than at Marshall. Depends how debt averse you are. Case is better, but you need to decide what that's worth to you.

If we take 'retake or don't go' into the conversation, well, could you get into OSU? Notre Dame? Are you one great LSAT away from a T20, where sticker price might be worthwhile?


Thanks for the response, it was really helpful, and pretty much echoed exactly how I feel about the situation. First of all, I would love to be at Case, but I can't justify the cost. I have actually already been in close contact with admissions, and a few weeks ago the upped my scholarship by $2,000 (a drop in the bucket). There may be a slim chance at more money after first seat deposits. Again, I don't know if it would be enough to really justify the cost of Case. At what point, money wise, would you start to consider Case as a real possibility?

Although I'd be willing to sit out a year and re-take, I don't know if it would help me much. If I would have gotten into OSU, I would have definitely attended at in-state tuition. A re-take will not help me with OSU because of the GPA. Also, I am on the waitlist at Cincy.
Last edited by OhioRider22 on Wed May 09, 2012 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:44 pm

romothesavior wrote:ETA: You are right that even if C-M is "respected," that may not matter in the job department. A lot of people use this vague notion of "respect" to justify going to a TTT in a tiny oversaturated market without realizing just how few jobs are actually in that market. Cleveland is a pretty small legal market and is in a state with way too many law schools. Even if Cleveland employers completely ignored the T14 and all other schools in the state like tOSU, it would be hard to place every Case/C-M student into decent jobs in the market. They can't create jobs that don't exist, even for students that they respect.

I think C-M for 60k is better than Case for 130k+, but both are pretty questionable ITE. I think retake is definitely the best bet.


I hear you. It would actually be C-M at $45K (if I keep the scholly), and Case at $125K. Total costs.

I fully understand that not every C-M grad will have a job in the legal field, I guess I would just go in and gun like hell and pray that I'm not one of those people. I have reason to believe that the top part of the class still gets solid employment (and maybe top 5% or so get Cleveland big law). I know this is a huge risk, but in my position, it might be my best option.

I explained a little bit about why a re-take may not help quite that much in my post above, but you are right, it is possible that if I could somehow pick up 5 or 6 more points, I might get more money at Case. I have already taken the LSAT twice. I just have my doubts, and I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I already have the biggest scholarship that C-M gives out, and I'm not sure if even 6 more points would gain me the scholly that would be needed to make attending Case possible.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby catholicgirl » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:58 pm

I would be extraordinarily wary of Cleveland-Marshall. I have several friends from my undergraduate institution who went there and are now unemployed. Not as in they can't find a lawyer job, but as in "holy fuck I can't even get a job at the Melting Pot" unemployed. They do weird things with OCI to exacerbate a bad economy, give out too many scholarships they can't support and try and fail you out, etc. .

If you want to stay in Cleveland go to Case. AS a native clevelander, you should know that the Case name has a lot more carrying power than Cleveland-Marshall.

I'm not trying to rabble rouse, just give you some solid advice. They will do everything in their power to not let you keep your scholarship. You're better off at CWRU.

ETA: These people were a lot like you. They were smart, capable people, who ALSO GOT INTO CASE and could have done much better there. But C-M ended up screwing them.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby 1776 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:09 pm

catholicgirl wrote:I would be extraordinarily wary of Cleveland-Marshall. I have several friends from my undergraduate institution who went there and are now unemployed. Not as in they can't find a lawyer job, but as in "holy fuck I can't even get a job at the Melting Pot" unemployed. They do weird things with OCI to exacerbate a bad economy, give out too many scholarships they can't support and try and fail you out, etc. .

If you want to stay in Cleveland go to Case. AS a native clevelander, you should know that the Case name has a lot more carrying power than Cleveland-Marshall.

I'm not trying to rabble rouse, just give you some solid advice. They will do everything in their power to not let you keep your scholarship. You're better off at CWRU.

ETA: These people were a lot like you. They were smart, capable people, who ALSO GOT INTO CASE and could have done much better there. But C-M ended up screwing them.


As a native Clevelander, CM. Case is absolutely not worth that level of debt ($90k+). CM has low tuition for in staters, so even if you lost the scholarship, it'd be cheaper than Case. CM has a good reputation in Cleveland, so go there if you want, for sure, Cleveland. Even if you pick Case, it's hard to get a job outside the area. I know several alums who ended up working at Case, and said they didn't have a great educational experience at Case. Also, if you talk to Prof's at Case, they think the law school's reputation is in decline. CM has a better reputation than its rank.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:23 pm

With Marshall, I'm not going to argue it's a better school, it's just that on a local level it experiences some local preference that Case doesn't get. This made zero difference in my own analysis and for what it's worth, I would not attend CSU unless I *knew* I had a job waiting for me AND I got the scholarship.

CSU alumni do reserve interviews for other CSU students and certain parts of the legal community blatantly favor Marshall, particularly city and county courts and government. I have encountered actual hostility from two CSU grads towards Case Western, based on some pretty ridiculous assumptions and cliquish thinking. Obviously, Case alumni do that too, but they aren't as dead-set on hiring from their own school, and they're more spread out and not all concentrated in Cleveland. That's part of why you end up with Case doing only slightly better in most respects locally than CSU does, although Case gets basically all the BigLaw and federal govt jobs, but there aren't that many to begin with.

At what point, money wise, would you start to consider Case as a real possibility?

Also, I am on the waitlist at Cincy.


Don't go to Cincy if you want to be in Cleveland. Marshall makes more sense than Cincy. I guess re-take doesn't help you much, does it. The most debt-averse thing you can do is not go to law school at all, of course :) Dollar amounts are different for everyone, so do a budget and decide what works for you.

These people were a lot like you. They were smart, capable people, who ALSO GOT INTO CASE and could have done much better there. But C-M ended up screwing them.


That's pretty worrisome, but I'd focus on the statistics and not anyone's anecdotal opinion of one or the other. I'm trying to come at this from your numbers and your situation and not shill for my own school, but even as a native Clevelander, it took me a month of agonizing and calculating before I was even willing to attend CWRU, and I'm merely satisfied, not thrilled - but I certainly don't feel 'screwed'. I think you need to take the cost into account and consider whether you can bear the debt. If you can, the answer is obviously Case. If you can't, you have a harder decision between Marshall and Don't Go/Retake.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby catholicgirl » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:24 pm

1776 wrote:
catholicgirl wrote:I would be extraordinarily wary of Cleveland-Marshall. I have several friends from my undergraduate institution who went there and are now unemployed. Not as in they can't find a lawyer job, but as in "holy fuck I can't even get a job at the Melting Pot" unemployed. They do weird things with OCI to exacerbate a bad economy, give out too many scholarships they can't support and try and fail you out, etc. .

If you want to stay in Cleveland go to Case. AS a native clevelander, you should know that the Case name has a lot more carrying power than Cleveland-Marshall.

I'm not trying to rabble rouse, just give you some solid advice. They will do everything in their power to not let you keep your scholarship. You're better off at CWRU.

ETA: These people were a lot like you. They were smart, capable people, who ALSO GOT INTO CASE and could have done much better there. But C-M ended up screwing them.


As a native Clevelander, CM. Case is absolutely not worth that level of debt ($90k+). CM has low tuition for in staters, so even if you lost the scholarship, it'd be cheaper than Case. CM has a good reputation in Cleveland, so go there if you want, for sure, Cleveland. Even if you pick Case, it's hard to get a job outside the area. I know several alums who ended up working at Case, and said they didn't have a great educational experience at Case. Also, if you talk to Prof's at Case, they think the law school's reputation is in decline. CM has a better reputation than its rank.


Yeah, but if OP doesn't have the grades to keep the scholarship, he may not be able to do well in OCI.

Granted, neither of these schools are a magic bullet to employment. I think you should take a long, hard look at where firms like Jones Day and Squire are picking up their SA's from. Many of these individuals either come from T-20 or CWRU. If you think that you can graduate at the tippity top at CM or Case then go. But I'd hate to see you take a risk at CM and it not work out.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:37 pm

catholicgirl wrote:Yeah, but if OP doesn't have the grades to keep the scholarship, he may not be able to do well in OCI.

Granted, neither of these schools are a magic bullet to employment. I think you should take a long, hard look at where firms like Jones Day and Squire are picking up their SA's from. Many of these individuals either come from T-20 or CWRU. If you think that you can graduate at the tippity top at CM or Case then go. But I'd hate to see you take a risk at CM and it not work out.


It is true that if I lost the scholly and paid in state tuition the next 2 years, C-M would still only cost me $45K in tuition. But at that point, I would be much more worried about being able to secure employment. I could maybe justify staying in school if I lost the scholly if I was say, still in the top %40 or so. I'm seriously considering trying to negotiate the stip away.

Also, in the firms like Jones Day, Squire Sanders, and Baker Hostetler, there are a fair number of C-M grads, but there are usually twice as many Case grads. For example, at Baker Hostetler there are 64 Case grads, and 32 C-M grads.

EDIT: In no way am I planning for or expecting Big Law... but it would be nice.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:59 pm

Thanks for all of the input so far, guys. Anyone else have anything?

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby 1776 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:28 pm

catholicgirl wrote:
1776 wrote:
catholicgirl wrote:I would be extraordinarily wary of Cleveland-Marshall. I have several friends from my undergraduate institution who went there and are now unemployed. Not as in they can't find a lawyer job, but as in "holy fuck I can't even get a job at the Melting Pot" unemployed. They do weird things with OCI to exacerbate a bad economy, give out too many scholarships they can't support and try and fail you out, etc. .

If you want to stay in Cleveland go to Case. AS a native clevelander, you should know that the Case name has a lot more carrying power than Cleveland-Marshall.

I'm not trying to rabble rouse, just give you some solid advice. They will do everything in their power to not let you keep your scholarship. You're better off at CWRU.

ETA: These people were a lot like you. They were smart, capable people, who ALSO GOT INTO CASE and could have done much better there. But C-M ended up screwing them.


As a native Clevelander, CM. Case is absolutely not worth that level of debt ($90k+). CM has low tuition for in staters, so even if you lost the scholarship, it'd be cheaper than Case. CM has a good reputation in Cleveland, so go there if you want, for sure, Cleveland. Even if you pick Case, it's hard to get a job outside the area. I know several alums who ended up working at Case, and said they didn't have a great educational experience at Case. Also, if you talk to Prof's at Case, they think the law school's reputation is in decline. CM has a better reputation than its rank.


Yeah, but if OP doesn't have the grades to keep the scholarship, he may not be able to do well in OCI.

Granted, neither of these schools are a magic bullet to employment. I think you should take a long, hard look at where firms like Jones Day and Squire are picking up their SA's from. Many of these individuals either come from T-20 or CWRU. If you think that you can graduate at the tippity top at CM or Case then go. But I'd hate to see you take a risk at CM and it not work out.


Case doesn't open too many more doors in Cleveland than CM. again, CM with instate is cheaper. Case isn't worth 90k in tuition, period. He might not get OCi at either school, so why not go to the cheaper? Both are very regional. It isn't a good idea to tell someone to take out so much to go to Case. There aren't too many more doors opened at case than CM.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby 1776 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:37 pm

OhioRider22 wrote:
catholicgirl wrote:Yeah, but if OP doesn't have the grades to keep the scholarship, he may not be able to do well in OCI.

Granted, neither of these schools are a magic bullet to employment. I think you should take a long, hard look at where firms like Jones Day and Squire are picking up their SA's from. Many of these individuals either come from T-20 or CWRU. If you think that you can graduate at the tippity top at CM or Case then go. But I'd hate to see you take a risk at CM and it not work out.


It is true that if I lost the scholly and paid in state tuition the next 2 years, C-M would still only cost me $45K in tuition. But at that point, I would be much more worried about being able to secure employment. I could maybe justify staying in school if I lost the scholly if I was say, still in the top %40 or so. I'm seriously considering trying to negotiate the stip away.

Also, in the firms like Jones Day, Squire Sanders, and Baker Hostetler, there are a fair number of C-M grads, but there are usually twice as many Case grads. For example, at Baker Hostetler there are 64 Case grads, and 32 C-M grads.

EDIT: In no way am I planning for or expecting Big Law... but it would be nice.


What's twice as many? 2 case for 1 cm, or 10 case. 5 cm? Neither is a safe bet for big law, and case is either losing ground or cm is gaining it. If you want to go to the higher ranked school, go for it. But case is not worth that price. Job prospects are mediocre at best, and you'll be in a lot of debt if you need to pay living expenses. Go where you want, but cm is at most half the cost. Yeah, it'll be easier to keep your scholly at case, but if you don't do well, 90k is hard to pay off. I am a debt averse person though.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:47 pm

If you want biglaw, your odds are bad at Case and atrocious at C-M. What did you say earlier, 5% maybe from Marshall? You think those are good odds? Your chances are significantly better at a roulette table. Certainly some people are going to win big at C-M, but not many. You have this info going in, so you should use it to help make an informed decision. I would listen to what Catholicgirl is saying here; I think you are suffering from a bit of optimism bias and are overestimating your chances of securing solid work from C-M.

Luckily for you, your debt would be manageable out of C-M, if you can find legal employment. You wouldn't need biglaw. Of course, this is all assuming you don't lose your scholarship, which with that tough stipulation is a big "if" as well. You really should consider a retake. Even with a poor GPA, you could get into a T20 with a scholarship if you got in the high 160s, or you could ED UVA or something with a 170+. If you don't do that, then go to C-M and be fully prepared, both mentally and emotionally, to pull the plug and drop out.

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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:15 am

1776 wrote:
OhioRider22 wrote:It is true that if I lost the scholly and paid in state tuition the next 2 years, C-M would still only cost me $45K in tuition. But at that point, I would be much more worried about being able to secure employment. I could maybe justify staying in school if I lost the scholly if I was say, still in the top %40 or so. I'm seriously considering trying to negotiate the stip away.

Also, in the firms like Jones Day, Squire Sanders, and Baker Hostetler, there are a fair number of C-M grads, but there are usually twice as many Case grads. For example, at Baker Hostetler there are 64 Case grads, and 32 C-M grads.

EDIT: In no way am I planning for or expecting Big Law... but it would be nice.


What's twice as many? 2 case for 1 cm, or 10 case. 5 cm? Neither is a safe bet for big law, and case is either losing ground or cm is gaining it. If you want to go to the higher ranked school, go for it. But case is not worth that price. Job prospects are mediocre at best, and you'll be in a lot of debt if you need to pay living expenses. Go where you want, but cm is at most half the cost. Yeah, it'll be easier to keep your scholly at case, but if you don't do well, 90k is hard to pay off. I am a debt averse person though.


I did give one actual example (Baker Hostetler at 64 Case grads, 32 C-M grads). This is beside the point though really, as in no way am I planning on Big Law with a 5% shot from C-M. I'm more hoping to be able to find a good small to mid size private firm gig or a government (prosecutor) job.

I'm pretty much with you though, 1776. Our opinions on C-M and my decision seem very similar. I'm mostly just trying to get all the opinions, and see what others think. I doubt anyone could talk me into going to Case at those prices. I am seriously pondering if a final re-take would be worth it though.

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1776
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby 1776 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:27 am

Good luck. If you really want Case, try to boost your score. They do give out decent scholarships.

OhioRider22
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:27 am

romothesavior wrote:Luckily for you, your debt would be manageable out of C-M, if you can find legal employment. You wouldn't need biglaw. Of course, this is all assuming you don't lose your scholarship, which with that tough stipulation is a big "if" as well. You really should consider a retake. Even with a poor GPA, you could get into a T20 with a scholarship if you got in the high 160s, or you could ED UVA or something with a 170+. If you don't do that, then go to C-M and be fully prepared, both mentally and emotionally, to pull the plug and drop out.


Solid advice.

Although I think the UVA thing is quite a stretch. There is one aspect that has me considering a re-take: I never mastered logic games. Actually, I was atrocious at them. Both times I took the test I went like -4 RC, -4 LR, -3 LR, and -12 LG! :shock: Everyone has always said that the games are the most learnable, but I just felt like I could never really get it. Now I'm starting to wonder if I just didn't have the right guidance and didn't put in the time to really master them. Honestly, all I really did was take the Princeton Review course (which I wasn't crazy about) and take practice tests. What do guys think? Do you think I could improve my score enough to make it worth while? If I really put in the work and concentrated on mastering logic games?
Last edited by OhioRider22 on Wed May 09, 2012 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:47 am

You have to know yourself to know if a scholarship with a stip is going to be a problem for you. The odds are in your favor, but they aren't great. You can't predict the outcome of 1L with any serious degree of accuracy. Work as hard as humanly possible if you take the stip, because you're playing a weighted table game with your money already in the pile. Maybe it's good motivation - it was for me, and I still almost missed the number.

You want to be a prosecutor? If you want to do city or county, Marshall is fine. It'll be competitive, but not impossible. If you're really interested in US Attorney's Office or other federal positions, or BigLaw, or working outside Ohio - those are the reasons to consider Case. If your future is in any branch of local government, unless there's something I don't know, I would say you'd be fine going to Marshall. But you'd better be sure, because you're trading financial security for a set of semi-safe, but limited options. But either way, I love that you're committed to Cleveland (the city). :)

OhioRider22
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:25 pm

Ersatz Haderach wrote:But you'd better be sure, because you're trading financial security for a set of semi-safe, but limited options.


This is exactly why I'm still somewhat considering Case (and really only if I get more money). I feel like I could do fine if I worked hard at C-M and my goals were purely local or county government, or small firm stuff, but I'm not so sure anymore that I'm content with those goals. Part of me wants to shoot higher. Part of me wants more financial security than that. God, it's all such a gamble.

Ersatz Haderach wrote:But either way, I love that you're committed to Cleveland (the city). :)


Thanks, this is true, I love this city. It took me having to live in South Florida for four years, traveling quite a bit, and then coming home in my mid twenties to realize it though. I didn't appreciate what a great city this was, and how awesome the poeple are, when I was younger. The only thing I'm not crazy about is the weather, but I can live with that. And I guess it's a little selfish too, as I believe my best career options will be in Cleveland, where I was born and raised and have many important connections.

OhioRider22
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Re: Cleveland-Marshall vs. Case Western Reserve

Postby OhioRider22 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:42 pm

I will say this, I have been very impressed with the Case alums who I have asked opinions of. They have all been very honest. They hold a certain pride in their school without being boastful and while still giving accurate, helpful advice. I like that, and appreciate it.

The majority of advice though, from Case and C-M alums alike, with my situation and with wanting to stay in Cleveland, has been to save the money and go to
C-M. The C-M alums have all said that it's a no brainer really, and the Case alums have generally thought it was a more difficult decision but have still leaned towards C-M. Granted most of these alums have been successful from both schools, so there is a chance that the sample is a little innacurate.

I attended both schools' admitted students days, and I will say that I wasn't all that happy with the way Case reported their employment data to us. First of all, they wouldn't give us 2011 numbers, saying that it wouldn't be available until early summer, so they went on 2010 numbers. They did not break down JD required, JD preferred, or what those in the "business" sector were doing.
C-M on the other hand gave us everything straight up and brutally honest. They gave us 2011 numbers (their ASD was the day after Case's), told us they had contacted every student except for one (who they told us refused to talk to them), and they broke down everything into JD required, JD preferred, professional, non-professional, etc. They even told us exactly where the 5 students in non-professional jobs were working. They listed them off, "One at Home Depot, one at ABC Restaraunt," etc. Although the numbers were scary, I was hugely impressed by this. And they also talked to us openly and honestly about salaries.




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