Do not attend TJSL

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Lord Randolph McDuff
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Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:31 am

I was told I could not inform the prospective applicants of TJSL (Thomas Jefferson School of Law) of the school's employment statistics if I was doing so in the actual TJSL c/o 2015 thread. I don't want to get into the merits of that rule, I just want to post the data again and continue the conversation with prospective applicants should they choose to do so.

Here is the data the school submitted to NALP. Again, keep in mind these numbers are (unfortunately) often a bit rosier than they should be..


Law School Careers- Thomas Jefferson School of Law-- 2010


Total graduates 221
Graduates known to be employed at graduation 28.1%
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 68.3%
Class of 2010 Graduates-Class Breakdown at Graduation

Graduates whose employment status is unknown 71.0%
Graduates whose employment status is known 29.0%
Graduates known to be employed at graduation 28.1%
Graduates known to be enrolled in a full-time degree program 0.9%
Graduates known to be unemployed and seeking work N/A
Graduates known to be unemployed and not seeking work N/A
Class of 2010 Graduates-Class Breakdown at Nine Months

Graduates whose employment status is unknown 19.0%
Graduates whose employment status is known 81.0%
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 68.3%
Graduates known to be enrolled in a full-time degree program 3.2%
Graduates known to be unemployed and seeking work 8.6%
Graduates known to be unemployed and not seeking work 0.9%
Starting Salaries of Graduates Employed Full-time (Class of 2010)

25th percentile private sector starting salary $45,000
Median private sector starting salary $65,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $75,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 16%
Median public service starting salary $52,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2010)

Percent employed in academia 4.6%
Percent employed in business and industry 18.5%
Percent employed in government 9.9%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 2.0%
Percent employed in law firms 61.6%
Percent employed in public interest 1.3%
Percent employed in an unknown field 2.0%
Employment Location (Class of 2010)

Graduates employed in-state 70%
Graduates employed out-of-state 19.2%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 1%
Number of states where graduates are employed 15
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 0.0%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 5.3%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 1.3%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 0.0%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 3.3%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 1.3%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 2.7%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 72.2%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 3.3%
Employment location unknown 9.3%
Career Services

(Data appear as originally submitted by this school)
Career services operations Career Services (CS) has four career advisors, all attorneys, and a recruiting coordinator. CS provides individual counseling, group programming, job search materials, and mock interviews for students and alumni. CS also develops job/internship and networking opportunities with all types of legal and alternative employers.
Job Type

Bar admission required/anticipated (e.g., attorney and corporate counsel positions, law clerks, judicial clerks) 48.3%
Bar admission required/anticipated - percent employed in full-time positions 94.5%
J.D. preferred, law degree enhances position (e.g., corporate contracts administrator, alternative dispute resolution specialist, government regulatory analyst, FBI special agent) 37.8%
J.D. preferred - percent employed in full-time positions 84.2%
Professional other (jobs that require professional skills or training but for which a J.D. is neither preferred nor particularly applicable; e.g., accountant, teacher, business manager, nurse) 8.6%
Professional other - percent employed in full-time positions 53.8%
Non-professional other (job that does not require any professional skills or training or is taken on a temporary basis and not viewed as part of a career path) 1.3%
Non-professional other - percent employed in full-time positions 0.0%


Indebtedness

Average indebtedness of 2011 graduates who incurred law school debt $153,006
Proportion who borrowed 93.6%
Does the school offer a loan repayment assistance program for 2011 J.D. graduates? No

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:33 am

For c/o 2010, only 31% were full time attorneys nine months out.
Of that, obviously a smaller percentage were in the private sector.
Factoring in the percent in full time JD required jobs who reported a private sector salary (16%), we find that only EIGHT graduates (out of 221) are represented by TJSL salary quartiles of 45k/65k/75k.
This means that only FOUR students in the class of 2010 made more than 65k, the "median salary."

4 divided by 221 =.018. The "median" salary that TJSL published is represented by 1.8% of the class.

93% borrowed money to finance their education, with the average indebtedness at $153,000.

EDIT: just looked at bar passage rate. 33% for first time, 13% for returning test takers.

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/01/thomas-j ... of-stupid/
Last edited by Lord Randolph McDuff on Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:36 am

Shitty schools are shitty. Fucking news to me.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:37 am

bk1 wrote:Shitty schools are shitty. Fucking news to me.


Thanks for your important contribution. Hopefully one of the human beings who is about to jump off a cliff by attending this school will be influenced by your wise, wise words.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lawl Shcool » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:45 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
bk1 wrote:Shitty schools are shitty. Fucking news to me.


Thanks for your important contribution. Hopefully one of the human beings who is about to jump off a cliff by attending this school will be influenced by your wise, wise words.


Do you know someone personally who has attended TJSL and is now struggling? I just don't understand why you keep spamming TLS with anti-TJ stuff if you don't have a personal stake in it.

Also, this is your second suicide reference this hour, need to talk to someone bro?

flcath
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby flcath » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:49 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
bk1 wrote:Shitty schools are shitty. Fucking news to me.


Thanks for your important contribution. Hopefully one of the human beings who is about to jump off a cliff by attending this school will be influenced by your wise, wise words.

Honestly, dude, as "elitist" as some of the shit TLS people say is, the truth of the matter is that most TLSers are obscenely oblivious to how stupid the average TTT student is. You'll hear shit like "these [prospective] students are college-educated adults, and they're perfectly capable of looking at the data and weighing the pros and cons of any law school."

Of course, this is fucking laughable to anyone that's met a real, live TTT.

My point is: making a coherent, numbers-based argument against attending TJSL will not sway the type of kid who would otherwise attend TJSL.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:50 am

Lawl Shcool wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
bk1 wrote:Shitty schools are shitty. Fucking news to me.


Thanks for your important contribution. Hopefully one of the human beings who is about to jump off a cliff by attending this school will be influenced by your wise, wise words.


Do you know someone personally who has attended TJSL and is now struggling? I just don't understand why you keep spamming TLS with anti-TJ stuff if you don't have a personal stake in it.

Also, this is your second suicide reference this hour, need to talk to someone bro?


I hope that if I did "need to talk to someone," I wouldn't be so unlucky as to speak with you. Did you really just taunt someone who you think might kill himself?

Same question as I asked the other account: do you work in the admissions office of TJSL?

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bk1
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:51 am

flcath wrote:Honestly, dude, as "elitist" as some of the shit TLS people say is, the truth of the matter is that most TLSers are obscenely oblivious to how stupid the average TTT student is. You'll hear shit like "these [prospective] students are college-educated adults, and they're perfectly capable of looking at the data and weighing the pros and cons of any law school."


That's the opinion of the judge who dismissed the lawsuit, not TLSers.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:53 am

If the employment statistics were more transparent, I'd say leave the people alone and let them make their own gamble. They may be dumb, but people can also blow 200k on lottery tickets. However, I think that in this case it is immoral to stand on the sidelines and let people attend this school without helping inform them. I'd like to think of TJLS like a ponzi scheme where 195/200 people lose their 200k or so after opportunity cost investment per year (and those that got real jobs may have already had nepotism or something else to rely on)-- plus years more of indentured servitude due to the non-dischargeable nature of the debt.

In light of how damning this information is, my view of TLS as a free market for information has changed a bit. TLS profits off of the pain that these TJLS admits will experience with near statistical certainty. I guess it is a smart business move to not allow negative people to criticize TJLS admits. However, I wonder if TLS would feel the same way about maintaining chat rooms for the investors of a known and damaging financial industry scam? Probably not. TJLS's track record is much worse than many real Ponzi schemes or super-risky equity investments. Allowing predatory TJLS adcomms and zealot-admits a space to reinforce misinformation seems kind of wrong.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:54 am

flcath wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
bk1 wrote:Shitty schools are shitty. Fucking news to me.


Thanks for your important contribution. Hopefully one of the human beings who is about to jump off a cliff by attending this school will be influenced by your wise, wise words.

Honestly, dude, as "elitist" as some of the shit TLS people say is, the truth of the matter is that most TLSers are obscenely oblivious to how stupid the average TTT student is. You'll hear shit like "these [prospective] students are college-educated adults, and they're perfectly capable of looking at the data and weighing the pros and cons of any law school."

Of course, this is fucking laughable to anyone that's met a real, live TTT.

My point is: making a coherent, numbers-based argument against attending TJSL will not sway the type of kid who would otherwise attend TJSL.


I basically agree with you but I can't help but try. I mean. They understand math.... Even the 1.8%... the "lucky" ones... won't be able to pay off 153k on a 65k salary at anything better than a snails pace. And.. this is what they are gunning for? I can't believe that they understand this going in. Certainly some people are that dumb, but not all of them..
Last edited by Lord Randolph McDuff on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:55 am

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

flcath
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby flcath » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:56 am

bk1 wrote:
flcath wrote:Honestly, dude, as "elitist" as some of the shit TLS people say is, the truth of the matter is that most TLSers are obscenely oblivious to how stupid the average TTT student is. You'll hear shit like "these [prospective] students are college-educated adults, and they're perfectly capable of looking at the data and weighing the pros and cons of any law school."


That's the opinion of the judge who dismissed the lawsuit, not TLSers.

People on here will defend the existence of TTTs, or that the only reform the ABA accreditation process needs is "more transparency."

Which is nonsensical to someone who's met these people.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:57 am

TaipeiMort wrote:If the employment statistics were more transparent, I'd say leave the people alone and let them make their own gamble. They may be dumb, but people can also blow 200k on lottery tickets. However, I think that in this case it is immoral to stand on the sidelines and let people attend this school without helping inform them. I'd like to think of TJLS like a ponzi scheme where 195/200 people lose their 200k or so after opportunity cost investment per year (and those that got real jobs may have already had nepotism or something else to rely on)-- plus years more of indentured servitude due to the non-dischargeable nature of the debt.

In light of how damning this information is, my view of TLS as a free market for information has changed a bit. TLS profits off of the pain that these TJLS admits will experience with near statistical certainty. I guess it is a smart business move to not allow negative people to criticize TJLS admits. However, I wonder if TLS would feel the same way about maintaining chat rooms for the investors of a known and damaging financial industry scam? Probably not. TJLS's track record is much worse than many real Ponzi schemes or super-risky equity investments. Allowing predatory TJLS adcomms and zealot-admits a space to reinforce misinformation seems kind of wrong.


+8539834

I want to be your best friend.

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bk1
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:57 am

TaipeiMort wrote:If the employment statistics were more transparent, I'd say leave the people alone and let them make their own gamble. They may be dumb, but people can also blow 200k on lottery tickets.


I'm not sure how I feel about it overall, but I think the problem with this line of thinking is that the government doesn't write people blank checks to buy lottery tickets with but it does do that for graduate school.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Tom Joad » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:58 am

flcath has recently become of of my favorite posters. And if the name stands for Florida Catholic, happy Easter, bro.

But seriously Congress does need to do a lot of work with higher ed. Maybe when I have more time over the summer I will write my members of Congress.
Last edited by Tom Joad on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:58 am

bk1 wrote:
flcath wrote:Honestly, dude, as "elitist" as some of the shit TLS people say is, the truth of the matter is that most TLSers are obscenely oblivious to how stupid the average TTT student is. You'll hear shit like "these [prospective] students are college-educated adults, and they're perfectly capable of looking at the data and weighing the pros and cons of any law school."


That's the opinion of the judge who dismissed the lawsuit, not TLSers.


It is a fine argument. I think that he overlooks the culturally-reinforced expectations of safety which the law school industry/ABA-sanction has seemingly given law schools. Similar arguments have been made about subprime mortgage investors that followed AAA ratings to self-destruction. I would think though that the implication of basic value is even stronger for an ABA-protected law degree than an investment product with an already existing disclaimer.

flcath
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby flcath » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:58 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
flcath wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
bk1 wrote:Shitty schools are shitty. Fucking news to me.


Thanks for your important contribution. Hopefully one of the human beings who is about to jump off a cliff by attending this school will be influenced by your wise, wise words.

Honestly, dude, as "elitist" as some of the shit TLS people say is, the truth of the matter is that most TLSers are obscenely oblivious to how stupid the average TTT student is. You'll hear shit like "these [prospective] students are college-educated adults, and they're perfectly capable of looking at the data and weighing the pros and cons of any law school."

Of course, this is fucking laughable to anyone that's met a real, live TTT.

My point is: making a coherent, numbers-based argument against attending TJSL will not sway the type of kid who would otherwise attend TJSL.


I basically agree with you but I can't help but try. I mean. They understand math.... Even the 1.8%... the "lucky" ones... won't be able to pay off 153k on a 65k salary at anything better than a snails pace. And.. this is what they are gunning for? I can't believe that they understand this going in. Certainly some people are that dumb, but not all of them certainly.

Yeah dude. But meeting some of these people will dissuade you from this course, permanently. I'm not kidding. I've BEEN to Cooley, and I know at least half a dozen Florida Coastal + Barry kids.

I actually think the push for more transparency, while well-intentioned, is a negative thing, since the ABA will ultimately make these reforms, it won't do shit, and they'll get a reprieve from making further (real) changes.

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bk1
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:59 am

flcath wrote:People on here will defend the existence of TTTs, or that the only reform the ABA accreditation process needs is "more transparency."

Which is nonsensical to someone who's met these people.


I don't think that has to do with the intelligence of the people who attend those schools, more with what people believe should be done about those who make poor decisions even in the face of 100% transparency. I imagine much of TLS believes that people will attend bad schools even in the face of overwhelming data showing it's a bad idea (in fact we see this actually play out all the time on TLS). They are more split on whether something should be done in that case.

rad lulz
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:00 am

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:03 am

rad lulz wrote:
flcath wrote:
bk1 wrote:
flcath wrote:Honestly, dude, as "elitist" as some of the shit TLS people say is, the truth of the matter is that most TLSers are obscenely oblivious to how stupid the average TTT student is. You'll hear shit like "these [prospective] students are college-educated adults, and they're perfectly capable of looking at the data and weighing the pros and cons of any law school."


That's the opinion of the judge who dismissed the lawsuit, not TLSers.

People on here will defend the existence of TTTs, or that the only reform the ABA accreditation process needs is "more transparency."

Which is nonsensical to someone who's met these people.

I actually don't care about these people that much.

I just wish the govt. would reform its loan policies.


+1. Imagine if it were privatized. TJLS people wouldn't be able to get the rope to hang themselves, and T14 students would enjoy loans with prime+1 interest rates.

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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby flcath » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:06 am

bk1 wrote:
flcath wrote:People on here will defend the existence of TTTs, or that the only reform the ABA accreditation process needs is "more transparency."

Which is nonsensical to someone who's met these people.


I don't think that has to do with the intelligence of the people who attend those schools, more with what people believe should be done about those who make poor decisions even in the face of 100% transparency. I imagine much of TLS believes that people will attend bad schools even in the face of overwhelming data showing it's a bad idea (in fact we see this actually play out all the time on TLS). They are more split on whether something should be done in that case.

rad lulz already hit it, but Sallie Mae is what keeps any type of a "market based" approach to law schools from ever working. You obviously know this from the other 9,732,000 it's been raised on TLS, but it never fails to piss me off when some shit-for-brains pseudo-libertarian talks about how we don't need gov't intervention, while completely ignoring that the "demand" for law school is 90% fake, and wouldn't exist absent free gubmint cash.

Tom Joad wrote:flcath has recently become of of my favorite posters. And if the name stands for Florida Catholic, happy Easter, bro.

Ty, bro, ty. And happy Easter to you!

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:06 am

I guess I actually don't know anyone who attends these schools. I know some fairly dumb people who go to OU and DU Law, T2s... That could be a bad sign I suppose.

I guess there are a few questionables at my school but not because they are dumb. I've honestly been really impressed with the caliber of students here, so I assumed things wouldn't be much different further on down the road, so to speak..

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bk1
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:07 am

flcath wrote:rad lulz already hit it, but Sallie Mae is what keeps any type of a "market based" approach to law schools from ever working. You obviously know this, but it never fails to piss me off when some shit-for-brains pseudo-libertarian talks about how we don't need gov't intervention, while completely ignoring that the "demand" for law school is 90% fake, and wouldn't exist absent free gubmint cash.


Agreed.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Lawl Shcool » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:10 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Same question as I asked the other account: do you work in the admissions office of TJSL?


I do not. I attended TJSL 1L year and it was honestly one of the best experiences of my entire life. It drives me nuts to see people blindly bashing a school they have no connection or experience with. I transferred out because I had the opportunity to attend a t10 school, a decision that was encouraged by TJSL when I told them about it. It isn't a knock on TJ that I left, I would have been happy to stay and graduate if I didn't have the t10 offer. As I have stated in other threads, the professors at TJSL are easily on par, or better, than professors I have had during 2L and 3L. The students near the top of the class at TJ, could easily compete for top grades at any school. The blind hatred for the school isn't warranted, especially by people who have never been there or have any connection to it.

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Re: Do not attend TJSL

Postby Napt » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:11 am

flcath wrote:
bk1 wrote:
flcath wrote:People on here will defend the existence of TTTs, or that the only reform the ABA accreditation process needs is "more transparency."

Which is nonsensical to someone who's met these people.


I don't think that has to do with the intelligence of the people who attend those schools, more with what people believe should be done about those who make poor decisions even in the face of 100% transparency. I imagine much of TLS believes that people will attend bad schools even in the face of overwhelming data showing it's a bad idea (in fact we see this actually play out all the time on TLS). They are more split on whether something should be done in that case.

rad lulz already hit it, but Sallie Mae is what keeps any type of a "market based" approach to law schools from ever working. You obviously know this from the other 9,732,000 it's been raised on TLS, but it never fails to piss me off when some shit-for-brains pseudo-libertarian talks about how we don't need gov't intervention, while completely ignoring that the "demand" for law school is 90% fake, and wouldn't exist absent free gubmint cash.

How isn't that a good argument for getting the government out of the student loan bizness?




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