Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

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Nelson
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Nelson » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:55 pm

greta wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:My only point is that the OP wont be doing international arbitration anyway, so it wont matter, and Harvard will offer him more Magic Circle firms to try to practice any cross-border deals work, but also more and competition-- the OP is probably not getting Magic Circle anyway, and Stanford offers him a better chance at getting a biglaw job and less competition for any job (except for maybe Keker, Quinn, or another very selective CA shop).


I don't understand why this is so impossible to work in this field. I would have gone to either Harvard or Stanford Law School, I have pretty advanced proficiency in two European languages (although neither is French), and I have worked and studied in Europe. I don't say this to imply that I think that I'm entitled to get anything, but is it really almost impossible to get a spot in the international arbitration practice of a place like Freshfields or Cleary or White & Case in London or in NYC with the potential to transfer?

I think the point is not that it's impossible to get this kind of job, but just that these jobs are so rare, so competitive, and require so much else to go right that the marginal chances of getting that kind of employment shouldn't weigh heavily on your choice of school.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:11 pm

Nelson wrote:
greta wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:My only point is that the OP wont be doing international arbitration anyway, so it wont matter, and Harvard will offer him more Magic Circle firms to try to practice any cross-border deals work, but also more and competition-- the OP is probably not getting Magics Circle anyway, and Stanford offers him a better chance at getting a biglaw job and less competition for any job (except for maybe Keker, Quinn, or another very selective CA shop).


I don't understand why this is so impossible to work in this field. I would have gone to either Harvard or Stanford Law School, I have pretty advanced proficiency in two European languages (although neither is French), and I have worked and studied in Europe. I don't say this to imply that I think that I'm entitled to get anything, but is it really almost impossible to get a spot in the international arbitration practice of a place like Freshfields or Cleary or White & Case in London or in NYC with the potential to transfer?

I think the point is not that it's impossible to get this kind of job, but just that these jobs are so rare, so competitive, and require so much else to go right that the marginal chances of getting that kind of employment shouldn't weigh heavily on your choice of school.


If you are looking to do cross-border deals work (capital markets or M&A) in Europe, then the possibility of starting in the US or London is real. However, getting into international arbitration groups is very hard. Of the seven or so real seats of arbitration (Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo, Paris, Geneva, London, NYC), you lack the language skills for four or five of them off the bat. That leaves London and NYC to start in (you may be able to lateral later). Of these offices, the number of starter positions doing this work is really, really small because the attorneys who actually end up doing to work manytimes come in as laterals for XX domestic firm. I don't think school selection will increase this chance much. However, go to Columbia or Harvard if you want to try to backdoor into these positions (eg. network, appropriately express interest through the right channels, write alumni, find work while in school, etc.). Columbia may be a bit better because they have a gigantic LLM alumni/partner base, but Harvard would be great too.

Columbia and Harvard have a huge gap in international alumni networks of schools: (Columbia>Harvard>>>NYU,Chicago>>>>Stanford>> Berkeley, Yale, Penn, others).

You are rolling the dice though. Harvard will give you a chance at a backdoor into int'l arbitration. Stanford is the safer option if you want a job. However, if you do decide on Harvard I give you props for having the moxie to fight the odds and try for something you care about (and it seems your background may qualify you for). My comments earlier were based upon the assumption you were generic "international law 0L" who lacks the background to make it. If it means anything, I am doing the same thing in another international field and am pretty happy with the results so far-- if you are qualified for the position you have a punchers chance coming from the right school to get into these rarer fields.

greta
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby greta » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:16 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:You are rolling the dice though. Harvard will give you a chance at a backdoor into int'l arbitration. Stanford is the safer option if you want a job.


I guess I just wonder how much of a roll of the dice Harvard is. Considering the (admittedly modest) economic recovery, I have a tough time believing that students at Harvard in any kind of danger. Aren't job prospects at the two schools pretty similar for everyone but the bottom 10-15% of the classes?

I do think that Stanford students can be more picky with which firm they decide to work at, but if I can't work in my top choice practice area and end up doing just plain old litigation for 3-4 years anyway, why would it matter which firm I'm at?

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hung jury
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby hung jury » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:17 pm

I doubt the placement differences are meaningful enough to differentiate the schools given what else is at play.

If you have 50k to spare, just pick the school you'd prefer to attend.

Now
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Now » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:17 am

What did you decide, and why?

JohnV
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby JohnV » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Rotor wrote:LOL at the thought of Stanford not having any reputation in Europe. Here is a link to the reputational rankings by an actual European publication instead of TLS anecdote. It is not LS specific, but that seems to be the general thrust of this thread.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... p-400.html


Interesting to see UT in the top 30.

Amoore114133
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Amoore114133 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:37 pm

You can't beat the weather in Palo Alto

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:29 am

TaipeiMort wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:go to the only T5 law school that isn't near a ghetto, go to Stanford.


True, but Stanford is practically as close to that as Santa Cruz and Monterey.


What "ghetto", exactly, is Cambridge encumbered by?


Well, I actually was talking about Harlem, Inglewood, and half of New Haven.


What T5 school is close to Inglewood? Did UCLA or USC make the T5?

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:53 am

.

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Cobretti
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Cobretti » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:09 pm

I'm sure he meant Englewood, which is by Columbia

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Borhas
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Borhas » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:10 pm

TL;DR

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Yukos
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Yukos » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:57 pm

Stanford is near East Palo Alto, which is actually pretty ghetto. Not nearly as dangerous as parts of Harlem, but you have no doubt driving through there that you're in a poorer neighborhood.

WTF this has to do with anything I don't know.

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dingbat
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:09 pm

Yukos wrote:Stanford is near East Palo Alto, which is actually pretty ghetto. Not nearly as dangerous as parts of Harlem, but you have no doubt driving through there that you're in a poorer neighborhood.

WTF this has to do with anything I don't know.

Lol at Harlem being dangerous

venzhlev
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby venzhlev » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:21 pm

Have you seen the rankings on this website lately. SLS is one ahead of HLS. Plus $/weather/location. Unless, you really want to relive the legally blond movies or any other stereotype about Ivies, its a no-brainer.

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Yukos
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Yukos » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:23 pm

There's still parts that are dangerous, though it's more block to block than whole swathes now. Still, the gentrification of Harlem is way overblow: go east of Malcolm X and it's clear you're not in Morningside Heights.

Source: I live in Harlem (the gentrified part obvi).

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dingbat
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:27 pm

Yukos wrote:There's still parts that are dangerous, though it's more block to block than whole swathes now. Still, the gentrification of Harlem is way overblow: go east of Malcolm X and it's clear you're not in Morningside Heights.

Source: I live in Harlem (the gentrified part obvi).

I've spent time in harlem. I've also spent time in dangerous areas. There's a noticeable difference

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Yukos
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Yukos » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:18 pm

dingbat wrote:
Yukos wrote:There's still parts that are dangerous, though it's more block to block than whole swathes now. Still, the gentrification of Harlem is way overblow: go east of Malcolm X and it's clear you're not in Morningside Heights.

Source: I live in Harlem (the gentrified part obvi).

I've spent time in harlem. I've also spent time in dangerous areas. There's a noticeable difference


Lol ok well if you "spent time there" you're obviously an expert. I just live here, what do I know? :roll:

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dingbat
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby dingbat » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:53 am

Yukos wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Yukos wrote:There's still parts that are dangerous, though it's more block to block than whole swathes now. Still, the gentrification of Harlem is way overblow: go east of Malcolm X and it's clear you're not in Morningside Heights.

Source: I live in Harlem (the gentrified part obvi).

I've spent time in harlem. I've also spent time in dangerous areas. There's a noticeable difference


Lol ok well if you "spent time there" you're obviously an expert. I just live here, what do I know? :roll:

And have you ever spent time in a truly dangerous area? Seriously, there's a noticeable difference.
I don't claim to be an expert on Harlem, but I've lived in areas that are far, far more dangerous than Harlem is today.http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2010/02/03/despite-recent-stabbing-crime-down-harlemhttp://www.wpix.com/news/local/wpix-east-harlem-crime-rate,0,6702244.story
In 1981, 6,500 robberies were reported in Harlem. The number dropped to 4,800 in 1990, perhaps due to an increase in the number of police assigned to the neighborhood. With the end of the "crack wars" in the mid 90s and with the initiation of aggressive policing under mayor Rudolph Giuliani, crime in Harlem plummeted. In 2000, 1,700 robberies were reported. There have been similar changes in all categories of crimes tracked by the New York City Police Department In the 32nd Precinct, which services Central Harlem above 127th Street, for example, between 1990 and 2008, the murder rate dropped 80%, the rape rate dropped 58%, the robbery rate dropped 73%, burglary dropped 86%, and the total number of crime complaints dropped 73%.

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echamberlin8
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby echamberlin8 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:14 am

Why is everyone always arguing on TLS?

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Cobretti
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby Cobretti » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:08 pm

echamberlin8 wrote:Why is everyone always arguing on TLS?


Why shouldn't we argue?

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dingbat
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby dingbat » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:21 pm

echamberlin8 wrote:Why is everyone always arguing on TLS?

There are a fairly large number of people on TLS discussing a very large number of topics. Invariably, people have differences of opinion.

Also, quite a lot of people spout off shit that's just wrong, and those who know try and set the facts straight


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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:32 pm

mrizza wrote:I'm sure he meant Englewood, which is by Columbia


I thought he meant Englewood which is close to Chicago.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:38 pm

Yukos wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Yukos wrote:There's still parts that are dangerous, though it's more block to block than whole swathes now. Still, the gentrification of Harlem is way overblow: go east of Malcolm X and it's clear you're not in Morningside Heights.

Source: I live in Harlem (the gentrified part obvi).

I've spent time in harlem. I've also spent time in dangerous areas. There's a noticeable difference


Lol ok well if you "spent time there" you're obviously an expert. I just live here, what do I know? :roll:


I think Dingbat's point is someone who is a sheltered Columbia student may think any place with multiple dark people is dangerous. While many people who have lived in places exponentially more dangerous in this country, would not consider Harlem a particularly dangerous neighborhood by comparison. You may have a different idea of what dangerous is. According to some Harlem is actually much safer than many other NYC neighborhoods:

DNAinfo.com released their New York City Crime and Safety Report yesterday, which featured surprising results from around the five boroughs.

All 69 New York City neighborhoods were scored on total per capita crime as well as types of crime: violent, rape, robbery, grand larceny, felony assault, burglary and auto theft.

Contrary to what you might expect, areas like Midtown Manhattan and Greenwich Village were rated as more dangerous than Harlem and Washington Heights.


http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dan ... z28pST7VMK

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dingbat
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Re: Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work

Postby dingbat » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:55 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
Yukos wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Yukos wrote:There's still parts that are dangerous, though it's more block to block than whole swathes now. Still, the gentrification of Harlem is way overblow: go east of Malcolm X and it's clear you're not in Morningside Heights.

Source: I live in Harlem (the gentrified part obvi).

I've spent time in harlem. I've also spent time in dangerous areas. There's a noticeable difference


Lol ok well if you "spent time there" you're obviously an expert. I just live here, what do I know? :roll:


I think Dingbat's point is someone who is a sheltered Columbia student may think any place with multiple dark people is dangerous. While many people who have lived in places exponentially more dangerous in this country, would not consider Harlem a particularly dangerous neighborhood by comparison. You may have a different idea of what dangerous is. According to some Harlem is actually much safer than many other NYC neighborhoods:

DNAinfo.com released their New York City Crime and Safety Report yesterday, which featured surprising results from around the five boroughs.

All 69 New York City neighborhoods were scored on total per capita crime as well as types of crime: violent, rape, robbery, grand larceny, felony assault, burglary and auto theft.

Contrary to what you might expect, areas like Midtown Manhattan and Greenwich Village were rated as more dangerous than Harlem and Washington Heights.


http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dan ... z28pST7VMK

You said this far more eloquently than I did.




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