USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

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quiksilver21af
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby quiksilver21af » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:59 pm

splitbrain wrote:
quiksilver21af wrote:My questions are for all the people who are advocating against law school.I guess first did you ever go to law school? Second, Are you in a situation where you went to law school decided it isn't worth it, for example have a lot of debt and hard time paying it off, or recently graduated and don't have a job? I am a little hesitant to take peoples advice with out fully understanding where they are coming from. If the only people who post on TLS are the 15% of people who didn't get a job it would make sense for all this negative banter. I am just saying what if all the people who have jobs don't have time to be sitting on TLS saying how bad of a decision law school was.

...are you replying to another thread...?


Well there were a lot of people knocking all three of OP's choices. But I guess this would be appropriate in any thread on TLS.

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bk1
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:02 pm

quiksilver21af wrote:My questions are for all the people who are advocating against law school.I guess first did you ever go to law school? Second, Are you in a situation where you went to law school decided it isn't worth it, for example have a lot of debt and hard time paying it off, or recently graduated and don't have a job? I am a little hesitant to take peoples advice with out fully understanding where they are coming from. If the only people who post on TLS are the 15% of people who didn't get a job it would make sense for all this negative banter. I am just saying what if all the people who have jobs don't have time to be sitting on TLS saying how bad of a decision law school was.


Have you seen data on the legal market? It's terrible. The sad thing for people who think TLS is bad is that TLS is one of the most optimistic places in regards to law school. JDU/ATL/xoxohth are all consistently more pessimistic than TLS.

There are tons of people on TLS who have managed to land biglaw SA's and yet consistently post here. Even if the majority of TLS was a bunch of jobless it wouldn't change the actual data of how horrible things are in the legal field.

quiksilver21af
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby quiksilver21af » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:12 pm

bk1 wrote:
quiksilver21af wrote:My questions are for all the people who are advocating against law school.I guess first did you ever go to law school? Second, Are you in a situation where you went to law school decided it isn't worth it, for example have a lot of debt and hard time paying it off, or recently graduated and don't have a job? I am a little hesitant to take peoples advice with out fully understanding where they are coming from. If the only people who post on TLS are the 15% of people who didn't get a job it would make sense for all this negative banter. I am just saying what if all the people who have jobs don't have time to be sitting on TLS saying how bad of a decision law school was.


Have you seen data on the legal market? It's terrible. The sad thing for people who think TLS is bad is that TLS is one of the most optimistic places in regards to law school. JDU/ATL/xoxohth are all consistently more pessimistic than TLS.

There are tons of people on TLS who have managed to land biglaw SA's and yet consistently post here. Even if the majority of TLS was a bunch of jobless it wouldn't change the actual data of how horrible things are in the legal field.


I have seen data on the legal market. http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/why-law-school-still-worth-it Here is a great article about the legal market. And I think it is very important to put the legal market in perspective. There is still less unemployment in the legal market than there is in the majority of professions in this country. Also it seems that most people are comparing the current legal market to what it was like in the 90's and mid 00's. With unemployment close to 1% nationally! So even if unemployment quadrupled, which it did, were still only talking about 4% unemployment nation wide.

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splitbrain
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby splitbrain » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:19 pm

quiksilver21af wrote:I have seen data on the legal market. http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/why-law-school-still-worth-it Here is a great article about the legal market. And I think it is very important to put the legal market in perspective. There is still less unemployment in the legal market than there is in the majority of professions in this country. Also it seems that most people are comparing the current legal market to what it was like in the 90's and mid 00's. With unemployment close to 1% nationally! So even if unemployment quadrupled, which it did, were still only talking about 4% unemployment nation wide.

And what about being underemployed? That's no biggie with massive debt, right?

t14fanboy
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby t14fanboy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:20 pm

quiksilver21af wrote:
bk1 wrote:
quiksilver21af wrote:My questions are for all the people who are advocating against law school.I guess first did you ever go to law school? Second, Are you in a situation where you went to law school decided it isn't worth it, for example have a lot of debt and hard time paying it off, or recently graduated and don't have a job? I am a little hesitant to take peoples advice with out fully understanding where they are coming from. If the only people who post on TLS are the 15% of people who didn't get a job it would make sense for all this negative banter. I am just saying what if all the people who have jobs don't have time to be sitting on TLS saying how bad of a decision law school was.


Have you seen data on the legal market? It's terrible. The sad thing for people who think TLS is bad is that TLS is one of the most optimistic places in regards to law school. JDU/ATL/xoxohth are all consistently more pessimistic than TLS.

There are tons of people on TLS who have managed to land biglaw SA's and yet consistently post here. Even if the majority of TLS was a bunch of jobless it wouldn't change the actual data of how horrible things are in the legal field.


I have seen data on the legal market. http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/why-law-school-still-worth-it Here is a great article about the legal market. And I think it is very important to put the legal market in perspective. There is still less unemployment in the legal market than there is in the majority of professions in this country. Also it seems that most people are comparing the current legal market to what it was like in the 90's and mid 00's. With unemployment close to 1% nationally! So even if unemployment quadrupled, which it did, were still only talking about 4% unemployment nation wide.


Image

MrAnon
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby MrAnon » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:24 pm

quiksilver21af wrote:
bk1 wrote:
quiksilver21af wrote:My questions are for all the people who are advocating against law school.I guess first did you ever go to law school? Second, Are you in a situation where you went to law school decided it isn't worth it, for example have a lot of debt and hard time paying it off, or recently graduated and don't have a job? I am a little hesitant to take peoples advice with out fully understanding where they are coming from. If the only people who post on TLS are the 15% of people who didn't get a job it would make sense for all this negative banter. I am just saying what if all the people who have jobs don't have time to be sitting on TLS saying how bad of a decision law school was.


Have you seen data on the legal market? It's terrible. The sad thing for people who think TLS is bad is that TLS is one of the most optimistic places in regards to law school. JDU/ATL/xoxohth are all consistently more pessimistic than TLS.

There are tons of people on TLS who have managed to land biglaw SA's and yet consistently post here. Even if the majority of TLS was a bunch of jobless it wouldn't change the actual data of how horrible things are in the legal field.


I have seen data on the legal market. http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/why-law-school-still-worth-it Here is a great article about the legal market. And I think it is very important to put the legal market in perspective. There is still less unemployment in the legal market than there is in the majority of professions in this country. Also it seems that most people are comparing the current legal market to what it was like in the 90's and mid 00's. With unemployment close to 1% nationally! So even if unemployment quadrupled, which it did, were still only talking about 4% unemployment nation wide.


That's bogus. There are 45,000 law school grads for 20,000 available lawyer openings each year. Do the math.

aroth001
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby aroth001 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:28 pm

USD. I'm an SD native with ties to Chicago. I visited Loyola Chicago in January... Its an awesome campus right in the middle of a great part of the city--but you don't have reason to go there if you want to practice in California.

You would be much more comfortable with the adjustment from Los Angeles to San Diego versus from LA to Chi.


You will probably have a better chance at job placement in SD over LA if you attend USD...but that might not be so terrible to live in SD for the rest of your life. Its a great place to live. Hope this helps!

t14fanboy
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby t14fanboy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:30 pm

bro did you read any of the previous 3 pages?

rad lulz
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:32 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 pm

quiksilver21af wrote:I have seen data on the legal market. http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/why-law-school-still-worth-it Here is a great article about the legal market. And I think it is very important to put the legal market in perspective. There is still less unemployment in the legal market than there is in the majority of professions in this country. Also it seems that most people are comparing the current legal market to what it was like in the 90's and mid 00's. With unemployment close to 1% nationally! So even if unemployment quadrupled, which it did, were still only talking about 4% unemployment nation wide.


There might be less unemployment overall, but that's a stupid metric. If the person graduating from law school just goes back to Starbucks, then they wasted the time and money getting a JD since their job does not require one. Getting a JD does not necessarily make you more employable.

To sum things up nicely:

Grizz wrote:The reality is, only 58% of law grads get full time jobs that require bar passage. Not all these jobs even pay. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=176606&p=5146995#p5146995. Assuming that 10% of all incoming entrants don't want to practice (99% of people at my school do, incidentally), law school was already a bad decision for at least 1/3 of all grads. They will never work as lawyers. Those that don't get jobs come disproportionally from lower-ranked schools. http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/09/sobering-numbers-law-graduates-who-do.html. Meanwhile, average law school indebtedness nears $100k. http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2011/11/law-school-debt-bubble.html.

There's a lot of emphasis placed on big law firms here because that's the surest way to pay down that big debt. If you miss out on the big law boat, you'll likely start at about $50k. http://www.nalp.org/salarycurve_classof2010#curve2 (keep in mind that a lot of those jobs in the trough, $95k+, are big firms in smaller markets). This is, of course, if you are one of the lucky few that gets a legal job at all.

Meanwhile, law schools are lying to you, telling stories of 90%+ grads employed 9 months after graduation, with the implication that they are all getting jobs as lawyers. They use salary statistics from a small, successful portion of the class with the implication that this small segment represent the whole. http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2011/01/harperdeception.html; http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ (look at the data clearinghouse). Why are they doing this? To get a nice cut of easy federal student loan dollars, as the government is lending to students without regard for their ability to repay. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/business/law-school-economics-job-market-weakens-tuition-rises.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=davidsegal.

So no, it's not elitism that makes me warn off people from less regarded schools, but rather simple economic realities of this noble profession. I read this article the other day, and I was struck about the actual nobility in how Lord, Day & Lord ran their practice. http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/nyregion/oldest-law-firm-is-courtly-loyal-and-defunct.html. Those were the good 'ol days. Now, prospective entrants to the profession are lied to and saddled with massive loans from the get-go. Telling someone not to take out $200k of debt for a school like Stetson is pretty sound economic advice. $50k debt? Okay, maybe that's not so bad. If someone wants to go to a school that has bad employment outcomes, go ahead, be my guest, I hope it works out for them. Nowhere did I say that law could not be rewarding. But from many schools, many grads will end up getting a nonlegal job they could have gotten with just their undergrad degree, except they'll be $100k in non-dischargeable student loan debt lighter.

Sincerely,
Grizz

rad lulz
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:40 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

t14fanboy
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby t14fanboy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:43 pm

rad lulz wrote:I echo everything Grizz says.


RIP.

trollhunter2
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby trollhunter2 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:13 pm

bdole2 wrote:
DTDT wrote:Get good grades and transfer from the TT (BLS) to the region you want or a better national name, possibly with a better scholarship. You still should be taking the LSAT again, although sitting out a year isn't the only option.


No. 1000x no. You will need extremely good grades (top 10%) to be able to transfer to a decent option. You have a 90% chance of not being able to transfer. Everyone thinks they will be at the top of their class. Sitting out a year IS the only option. Even if you DID somehow manage to transfer, transfer students almost NEVER get scholarships.


That's funny because you have a 10% chance of NOT scoring in the 90th percentile on the LSAT! Law school is what you make it. I've talked to dozens of alumni from USD and the sentiment is the same: once you get a job, you work your tail off. You then build your reputation and it doesn't matter where you went. I think too many people on TLS are sold on the name brand of schools, which incidentally, is exactly what keeps this elitist system going. It's mathematically impossible that everybody gets to go to a top school.

There's a solution: shut down the bottom half of all schools out there. Oh wait, now you've created a new bottom. Okay, so cut all non T-1 schools. Oh no, now all the state flag ship schools are the bottom tier. It's an argument diallelus. So you're not going to a "top" school, well, you're neither at the bottom.

Do you think an interviewer will care solely where you went if you have ten years of work experience? No. Sure going to a top law school will open more doors initially but it's you who has do the work once you get through them. A degree from Yale won't hold your hand.

A lot of posters on here dramatize and perpetuate the law school nightmare, having no job with enormous debt for the rest of your life. Sure, it happens, but probably about as much as the stories of ultra-successful people coming from a TTT right off the bat. However strangely, those same people on here don’t rant about that other minority.

What is absent on this site are people who went to any of these schools ten years ago. What’s the reason? They are too busy practicing LAW and so, they don't channel their anxiety into these forums because the unknown has been known. That’s why I took the initiative and reached out to people on my own. I suggest you do the same. Good luck with you decision.

quiksilver21af
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby quiksilver21af » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:52 am

trollhunter2 wrote:
bdole2 wrote:
DTDT wrote:Get good grades and transfer from the TT (BLS) to the region you want or a better national name, possibly with a better scholarship. You still should be taking the LSAT again, although sitting out a year isn't the only option.


No. 1000x no. You will need extremely good grades (top 10%) to be able to transfer to a decent option. You have a 90% chance of not being able to transfer. Everyone thinks they will be at the top of their class. Sitting out a year IS the only option. Even if you DID somehow manage to transfer, transfer students almost NEVER get scholarships.


That's funny because you have a 10% chance of NOT scoring in the 90th percentile on the LSAT! Law school is what you make it. I've talked to dozens of alumni from USD and the sentiment is the same: once you get a job, you work your tail off. You then build your reputation and it doesn't matter where you went. I think too many people on TLS are sold on the name brand of schools, which incidentally, is exactly what keeps this elitist system going. It's mathematically impossible that everybody gets to go to a top school.

There's a solution: shut down the bottom half of all schools out there. Oh wait, now you've created a new bottom. Okay, so cut all non T-1 schools. Oh no, now all the state flag ship schools are the bottom tier. It's an argument diallelus. So you're not going to a "top" school, well, you're neither at the bottom.

Do you think an interviewer will care solely where you went if you have ten years of work experience? No. Sure going to a top law school will open more doors initially but it's you who has do the work once you get through them. A degree from Yale won't hold your hand.

A lot of posters on here dramatize and perpetuate the law school nightmare, having no job with enormous debt for the rest of your life. Sure, it happens, but probably about as much as the stories of ultra-successful people coming from a TTT right off the bat. However strangely, those same people on here don’t rant about that other minority.

What is absent on this site are people who went to any of these schools ten years ago. What’s the reason? They are too busy practicing LAW and so, they don't channel their anxiety into these forums because the unknown has been known. That’s why I took the initiative and reached out to people on my own. I suggest you do the same. Good luck with you decision.


You're the man. Or woman. Either way you speak so much truth. I was trying to say this earlier but you said it so much more elegantly. My brother is a doctor who took on a lot of debt to get where he is and finally at 40 he is rolling in money. I know it is a different field with better job prospects and a longer return on investment but what he always said is at the end of the day your patients only care about being healthy. They don't care if you went to Dartmouth medical or Alabama back woods school of medicine (No offense if this is a real school). I guess what it really means is hard work triumphs prestige more often than not.

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flem
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby flem » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:32 am

quiksilver21af wrote:
trollhunter2 wrote:
That's funny because you have a 10% chance of NOT scoring in the 90th percentile on the LSAT! Law school is what you make it. I've talked to dozens of alumni from USD and the sentiment is the same: once you get a job, you work your tail off. You then build your reputation and it doesn't matter where you went. I think too many people on TLS are sold on the name brand of schools, which incidentally, is exactly what keeps this elitist system going. It's mathematically impossible that everybody gets to go to a top school.

There's a solution: shut down the bottom half of all schools out there. Oh wait, now you've created a new bottom. Okay, so cut all non T-1 schools. Oh no, now all the state flag ship schools are the bottom tier. It's an argument diallelus. So you're not going to a "top" school, well, you're neither at the bottom.

Do you think an interviewer will care solely where you went if you have ten years of work experience? No. Sure going to a top law school will open more doors initially but it's you who has do the work once you get through them. A degree from Yale won't hold your hand.

A lot of posters on here dramatize and perpetuate the law school nightmare, having no job with enormous debt for the rest of your life. Sure, it happens, but probably about as much as the stories of ultra-successful people coming from a TTT right off the bat. However strangely, those same people on here don’t rant about that other minority.

What is absent on this site are people who went to any of these schools ten years ago. What’s the reason? They are too busy practicing LAW and so, they don't channel their anxiety into these forums because the unknown has been known. That’s why I took the initiative and reached out to people on my own. I suggest you do the same. Good luck with you decision.


You're the man. Or woman. Either way you speak so much truth. I was trying to say this earlier but you said it so much more elegantly. My brother is a doctor who took on a lot of debt to get where he is and finally at 40 he is rolling in money. I know it is a different field with better job prospects and a longer return on investment but what he always said is at the end of the day your patients only care about being healthy. They don't care if you went to Dartmouth medical or Alabama back woods school of medicine (No offense if this is a real school). I guess what it really means is hard work triumphs prestige more often than not.


I love when uninformed law school prospects have a circle jerk of optimism

trollhunter2
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby trollhunter2 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:39 am

flem wrote:
quiksilver21af wrote:
trollhunter2 wrote:
That's funny because you have a 10% chance of NOT scoring in the 90th percentile on the LSAT! Law school is what you make it. I've talked to dozens of alumni from USD and the sentiment is the same: once you get a job, you work your tail off. You then build your reputation and it doesn't matter where you went. I think too many people on TLS are sold on the name brand of schools, which incidentally, is exactly what keeps this elitist system going. It's mathematically impossible that everybody gets to go to a top school.

There's a solution: shut down the bottom half of all schools out there. Oh wait, now you've created a new bottom. Okay, so cut all non T-1 schools. Oh no, now all the state flag ship schools are the bottom tier. It's an argument diallelus. So you're not going to a "top" school, well, you're neither at the bottom.

Do you think an interviewer will care solely where you went if you have ten years of work experience? No. Sure going to a top law school will open more doors initially but it's you who has do the work once you get through them. A degree from Yale won't hold your hand.

A lot of posters on here dramatize and perpetuate the law school nightmare, having no job with enormous debt for the rest of your life. Sure, it happens, but probably about as much as the stories of ultra-successful people coming from a TTT right off the bat. However strangely, those same people on here don’t rant about that other minority.

What is absent on this site are people who went to any of these schools ten years ago. What’s the reason? They are too busy practicing LAW and so, they don't channel their anxiety into these forums because the unknown has been known. That’s why I took the initiative and reached out to people on my own. I suggest you do the same. Good luck with you decision.


You're the man. Or woman. Either way you speak so much truth. I was trying to say this earlier but you said it so much more elegantly. My brother is a doctor who took on a lot of debt to get where he is and finally at 40 he is rolling in money. I know it is a different field with better job prospects and a longer return on investment but what he always said is at the end of the day your patients only care about being healthy. They don't care if you went to Dartmouth medical or Alabama back woods school of medicine (No offense if this is a real school). I guess what it really means is hard work triumphs prestige more often than not.


I love when uninformed law school prospects have a circle jerk of optimism


LOL
Dude, you're too much sometimes. There are different perspectives on this site, but one which is absent is the law school grad ten years out. Like I said, just by calling random alumni from USD, you get perspective on this whole thing real quick. So you might be 1 or 2 years out of LS at the most, but you graduated in the worst possible time, and you aren't seeing any lower-tier grads because they haven't had enough time to work themselves up the latter.

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flem
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby flem » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:45 am

trollhunter2 wrote:
LOL
Dude, you're too much sometimes. There are different perspectives on this site, but one which is absent is the law school grad ten years out. Like I said, just by calling random alumni from USD, you get perspective on this whole thing real quick. So you might be 1 or 2 years out of LS at the most, but you graduated in the worst possible time, and you aren't seeing any lower-tier grads because they haven't had enough time to work themselves up the latter.


You mean all the bros that got hired before the economy shit the bed?

Of course which school you went to only matters for your first job. The thing is though, your first job determines the rest of your exit options for life. You need to go to a good school to get quality work initially.

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Ludo!
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby Ludo! » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:53 am

trollhunter2 wrote:
What is absent on this site are people who went to any of these schools ten years ago. What’s the reason? They are too busy practicing LAW and so, they don't channel their anxiety into these forums because the unknown has been known. That’s why I took the initiative and reached out to people on my own. I suggest you do the same. Good luck with you decision.


People who graduated 10 years ago graduated in a completely different world. How many times do we have to tell you that?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:54 am

trollhunter2 wrote:Dude, you're too much sometimes. There are different perspectives on this site, but one which is absent is the law school grad ten years out. Like I said, just by calling random alumni from USD, you get perspective on this whole thing real quick. So you might be 1 or 2 years out of LS at the most, but you graduated in the worst possible time, and you aren't seeing any lower-tier grads because they haven't had enough time to work themselves up the latter.


Are you really calling random alumni? How do you find them? Presumably from firm websites, which means you are selecting only the people who had successful outcomes.

I've met plenty of people who went to USD law and don't work as lawyers. Fortunately for them, graduating 5-10 years ago meant far less than 200K debt at graduation. Not so today.

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Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Postby trollhunter2 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:43 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
trollhunter2 wrote:Dude, you're too much sometimes. There are different perspectives on this site, but one which is absent is the law school grad ten years out. Like I said, just by calling random alumni from USD, you get perspective on this whole thing real quick. So you might be 1 or 2 years out of LS at the most, but you graduated in the worst possible time, and you aren't seeing any lower-tier grads because they haven't had enough time to work themselves up the latter.


Are you really calling random alumni? How do you find them? Presumably from firm websites, which means you are selecting only the people who had successful outcomes.

I've met plenty of people who went to USD law and don't work as lawyers. Fortunately for them, graduating 5-10 years ago meant far less than 200K debt at graduation. Not so today.


Yeah, I've found them through the California Bar website. Got their email, explained my predicament and they've responded with their phone numbers or called me back. I've talked to alumni who graduated as few as 3 years, and as far out as 15 years ago.




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