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USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:04 am
by sickbetter
I am so torn between all these schools. I want to practice law in Los Angeles and I am a bit worried about leaving here to go to law school. Any thoughts on which of these I should choose? A lot of people say paying sticker is not worth it, but I don't understand what the alternative to that is... im not going to take another year off to retake my lSAT. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:39 am
by Mal Reynolds
I wouldn't go to any of these schools for free. There are just better things I can do with my time and better ways I can earn money. For sticker price, it's not even a three year vacation from your life. At the very best, you will be taking an enormous gamble with somewhere around $180,000 of debt, more like $200,000 with accrued interest. Finding a job that will allow you to repay these loans and also pay for your living expenses would be a terrifying prospect. And none of these schools are even in the city in which you want to live. If you don't want to retake then just go find another job, you can use the three years you would spend on law school working your way up in a company. Odds are you will eventually be making the same amount with or without law school-around $45,000 or $50,000. So why would you want to shoulder yourself with unnecessary debt?

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:00 am
by EMZE
USD is your best shot. And it will still be a terrible mistake because you will probably not find JD required legal work, much less in LA, that will allow you to pay down your debt and live with a higher quality of life than you already can find now.

Why so adverse to a retake? Those unwilling to retake and wait until they have reasonable options are also usually using law school as a way to postpone entry to the real world. Don't know anything about your personal situation or reasons, but you are rushing to failure.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:02 am
by bdole2
sickbetter wrote:I am so torn between all these schools. I want to practice law in Los Angeles and I am a bit worried about leaving here to go to law school. Any thoughts on which of these I should choose? A lot of people say paying sticker is not worth it, but I don't understand what the alternative to that is... im not going to take another year off to retake my lSAT. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


The alternative to sticker is scholarships. And 12k to a shitty law school in Chicago isn't going to cut it. You need to go to a law school that will place you in los angeles. And you need to not pay full price for it. The ONLY way you are going to be able to do that is to take a year off and retake the LSAT. Why are you so opposed to doing it?

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:05 am
by sickbetter
I am 28 years old and I just went back to school 2 years ago to finish my undergrad. I worked in real estate finance and when te market crashed I lost everything. I got a 158 on my LSAT an I honestly had not taken a practice test that showed I could do much better. Law is something I had always saw myself dojng even before I dropped out of school.

Accruing debt for an investment is not the worst thing in the world, I know the job market is a rancid place right but the advice to tell someone not to go to law school is unwarranted. It seems like if you don't go to a top 20 school then the idea of going to law school is a foolish one. Let's put aside the idea of not going to law school because that would defeat the purpose of choosing between my options.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:15 am
by BearsGrl
bdole2 wrote:
sickbetter wrote:I am so torn between all these schools. I want to practice law in Los Angeles and I am a bit worried about leaving here to go to law school. Any thoughts on which of these I should choose? A lot of people say paying sticker is not worth it, but I don't understand what the alternative to that is... im not going to take another year off to retake my lSAT. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


The alternative to sticker is scholarships. And 12k to a shitty law school in Chicago isn't going to cut it. You need to go to a law school that will place you in los angeles. And you need to not pay full price for it. The ONLY way you are going to be able to do that is to take a year off and retake the LSAT. Why are you so opposed to doing it?


Loyola isn't a "shitty" law school. As someone that lives North of Chicago, I find it comical that you would even imply this.

There are two options if the person doesn't want to retake:

USD
Loyola - Lateral move back to LA.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:26 am
by MrAnon
BearsGrl wrote:
bdole2 wrote:
sickbetter wrote:I am so torn between all these schools. I want to practice law in Los Angeles and I am a bit worried about leaving here to go to law school. Any thoughts on which of these I should choose? A lot of people say paying sticker is not worth it, but I don't understand what the alternative to that is... im not going to take another year off to retake my lSAT. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


The alternative to sticker is scholarships. And 12k to a shitty law school in Chicago isn't going to cut it. You need to go to a law school that will place you in los angeles. And you need to not pay full price for it. The ONLY way you are going to be able to do that is to take a year off and retake the LSAT. Why are you so opposed to doing it?


Loyola isn't a "shitty" law school. As someone that lives North of Chicago, I find it comical that you would even imply this.

There are two options if the person doesn't want to retake:

USD
Loyola - Lateral move back to LA.



Its what? the 3rd or 4th best school in town? At what point do we say okay this school isn't a powerhouse? When it is the 8th best school in town?

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:28 am
by EMZE
sickbetter wrote:I am 28 years old and I just went back to school 2 years ago to finish my undergrad. I worked in real estate finance and when te market crashed I lost everything. I got a 158 on my LSAT an I honestly had not taken a practice test that showed I could do much better. Law is something I had always saw myself dojng even before I dropped out of school.

Accruing debt for an investment is not the worst thing in the world, I know the job market is a rancid place right but the advice to tell someone not to go to law school is unwarranted. It seems like if you don't go to a top 20 school then the idea of going to law school is a foolish one. Let's put aside the idea of not going to law school because that would defeat the purpose of choosing between my options.


No, the advice to retake or don't go is not unwarranted. It is at least a dose of reality for people who have high hopes for legal careers without even considering the possibility that they will end up doing shitlaw or doc review or legal temp work. All of which require a JD, none of which will give you a way to pay off your debt.

But, if you are absolutely set on going, there are a lot of charts and fancy things people have made over time on this site to show employment and salary stats. Here is one of them: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681. It should help you at least figure out some of the math on how many decades it will take you to break even on your education.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:29 am
by MrAnon
sickbetter wrote:I am 28 years old and I just went back to school 2 years ago to finish my undergrad. I worked in real estate finance and when te market crashed I lost everything. I got a 158 on my LSAT an I honestly had not taken a practice test that showed I could do much better. Law is something I had always saw myself dojng even before I dropped out of school.

Accruing debt for an investment is not the worst thing in the world, I know the job market is a rancid place right but the advice to tell someone not to go to law school is unwarranted. It seems like if you don't go to a top 20 school then the idea of going to law school is a foolish one. Let's put aside the idea of not going to law school because that would defeat the purpose of choosing between my options.


You don't sound qualified to talk to us about good investments. I know law schools, been there, done that, and schools at this level are not good investments. As long as you are going to one of these schools you may as well find a lower ranked school that will let you attend for free. Going to these schools over a T4 isn't going to give you much of an edge.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:48 am
by DTDT
It's a great investment if you finish top 10. Good luck because of the scholarships there will be a ton of smart competition.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:57 am
by EMZE
To second MrAnon, these are bad investments.
Law schools have followed the coat tails of the education industry and created this greater level of accessability in exchange for flooding the market with newly graduated and heavily indebted lawyers. The schools you name were not always as poor an investment as they now are, but law schools (read:businesses) decided they could capitalize on the mentality of "a chicken in every pot and a diploma on every wall" and started charging students double what they did 10 years ago. For a few years, online undergraduate degrees gave people an edge. But when they flooded the market, it become all the more important to not just have a degree from anywhere. Same for law schools. People formerly had the luxury of going to a local "good enough" school, but the glut of lawyers drove down demand, and the supply of jobs never changed. Resultant was an increased number of lawyers willing to work for $20 an hour on temp work. I realize this is the same story across the job market, but what makes this profession unique is the mountain of debt from 7+years of education without ever breaking even. Check out this link for the experiences of a law school grad from a school roughly in the range you are talking about. Look for username areyouinsane.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=157855.

158 on your LSAT is not some ridiculously low starting point. I did the same thing as you and tried to hit a walk off home run without prep, and scored a 157. I walked in thinking I was going to see math on the test like the GRE/GMAT. But I found this site, posted similar questions to you, took my lumps from everyone telling me retake or don't go, and thankfully retook. My options literally went from the same as yours or worse, to several schools in the heralded T14. And my GPA was low, so it wasn't like that was my saving grace. I'm also about your age, so that was a very similar consideration on my part.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:53 pm
by quiksilver21af
I am not in as similar position but I am also trying to justify going to Brooklyn at sticker. But everyone who is saying take a year off and retake is missing a totally huge point. What am I going to do in that year. As bad as the job market is for lawyers what do you think its like with a BA in Marketing. Taking time off to retake seems almost as illogical to me as some of you probably feel going to these schools at sticker is.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:00 pm
by MrAnon
quiksilver21af wrote:I am not in as similar position but I am also trying to justify going to Brooklyn at sticker. But everyone who is saying take a year off and retake is missing a totally huge point. What am I going to do in that year. As bad as the job market is for lawyers what do you think its like with a BA in Marketing. Taking time off to retake seems almost as illogical to me as some of you probably feel going to these schools at sticker is.


You try to find a job. Maybe you find a job. Maybe its not the job of your dreams. You take it. You work hard, you work your way up.

Just to give you an idea, this is what life after law school at that range will look like:

You try to find a job. Maybe you find a job. Maybe its not the job of your dreams. You take it. You work hard, you work your way up.

Law school is an effortless pursuit. Getting a job is hard work. If you don't think you can find a job now, doubtful a school like that will make you more marketable.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:03 pm
by sd5289
quiksilver21af wrote:I am not in as similar position but I am also trying to justify going to Brooklyn at sticker.


Brooklyn is NOT worth sticker. I walked out of their admitted students event wholly unimpressed and apathetic, and I was only considering it on scholly. The only pro in my "pro's and con's" list for them was the Shake Shack across the street...

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:05 pm
by Mal Reynolds
quiksilver21af wrote:I am not in as similar position but I am also trying to justify going to Brooklyn at sticker. But everyone who is saying take a year off and retake is missing a totally huge point. What am I going to do in that year. As bad as the job market is for lawyers what do you think its like with a BA in Marketing. Taking time off to retake seems almost as illogical to me as some of you probably feel going to these schools at sticker is.


Going to Brooklyn for three years will in all likelihood put you in the same position you're in now: looking for a job in a bad job market. There is only one big difference, you won't have $150000 worth of loans staring you in the face.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:13 pm
by BearsGrl
MrAnon wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:
bdole2 wrote:
sickbetter wrote:I am so torn between all these schools. I want to practice law in Los Angeles and I am a bit worried about leaving here to go to law school. Any thoughts on which of these I should choose? A lot of people say paying sticker is not worth it, but I don't understand what the alternative to that is... im not going to take another year off to retake my lSAT. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


The alternative to sticker is scholarships. And 12k to a shitty law school in Chicago isn't going to cut it. You need to go to a law school that will place you in los angeles. And you need to not pay full price for it. The ONLY way you are going to be able to do that is to take a year off and retake the LSAT. Why are you so opposed to doing it?


Loyola isn't a "shitty" law school. As someone that lives North of Chicago, I find it comical that you would even imply this.

There are two options if the person doesn't want to retake:

USD
Loyola - Lateral move back to LA.



Its what? the 3rd or 4th best school in town? At what point do we say okay this school isn't a powerhouse? When it is the 8th best school in town?


If someone wants Chicago or the Midwest market in general, Loyola-Chi is just fine. I live in the Midwest and can firmly attest to this general statement. Obviously, the person considering this school will want to check out the factual data involved, but on reputation alone, Loyola-Chi is fine.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:23 pm
by rad lulz
.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:24 pm
by EMZE
quiksilver21af wrote:I am not in as similar position but I am also trying to justify going to Brooklyn at sticker. But everyone who is saying take a year off and retake is missing a totally huge point. What am I going to do in that year. As bad as the job market is for lawyers what do you think its like with a BA in Marketing. Taking time off to retake seems almost as illogical to me as some of you probably feel going to these schools at sticker is.


Consider this for a moment.

You do in fact take a year off. You study for the October administration, 6 months from now. You work hard and you improve your score to a level that is worthy of a scholarship at the range of schools you are discussing. That LSAT score, and in that year off, just saved you potentially up to 100k debt and interest. Since your LSAT is the only thing you can change, it is ridiculous to rush to failure when you can save yourself such a huge amount of money.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:38 pm
by BearsGrl
rad lulz wrote:Too bad it's reputation doesn't translate to jerbs.


Seeing as you say that for all schools, your concern has been noted and is moot at this point.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:44 pm
by Mal Reynolds
BearsGrl wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Too bad it's reputation doesn't translate to jerbs.


Seeing as you say that for all schools, your concern has been noted and is moot at this point.


Assburgersgrl strikes again. I don't think he has ever said it about a school in the top 20 for the right price.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:45 pm
by rad lulz
.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:53 pm
by MrAnon
BearsGrl wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Too bad it's reputation doesn't translate to jerbs.


Seeing as you say that for all schools, your concern has been noted and is moot at this point.


He says it for all schools because its so often true

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:56 pm
by splitbrain
I think I'm just going to create a thread analyzing CA schools.

OP: USD placed ~3.1% of its 2010 class in clerkships, and ~14.9% in firms with 51+ attorneys. Are you sure you want to take on massive debt for a weak shot at decent placement over working your ass off for the LSAT, retaking, and trying to do better next cycle?

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:59 pm
by BearsGrl
Mal Reynolds wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Too bad it's reputation doesn't translate to jerbs.


Seeing as you say that for all schools, your concern has been noted and is moot at this point.


Assburgersgrl strikes again. I don't think he has ever said it about a school in the top 20 for the right price.


It's duly noted that your client skills are horrible. Good luck with that mentality at an interview. Wowsa.

Re: USD (sticker) Brooklyn (sticker) LUC (12k scholly)???

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:00 pm
by BearsGrl
MrAnon wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Too bad it's reputation doesn't translate to jerbs.


Seeing as you say that for all schools, your concern has been noted and is moot at this point.


He says it for all schools because its so often true


Then perhaps he should go into academia as a CSO and work on changing that pecking order.