USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

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USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

USC at Sticker
24
59%
UC Hastings w/$25,000/year scholly
17
41%
 
Total votes: 41

bobloblawlaw
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USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby bobloblawlaw » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:15 pm

No preference on location. Just want to be able to get a biglaw job/in-house counsel. Portability is somewhat of a factor. Is USC worth it at sticker? Edited to add: No cost of living debt. "Just" tuition.
Last edited by bobloblawlaw on Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:27 pm

USC isn't worth sticker. At graduation you'd have 250k worth of debt.

I'm assuming in-state at Hastings? If so you'd be 120k debt at graduation. Risky part is that tuition increases might cause that to rise by a decent chunk, but even then I think this is clearly UCH. Ideally I'd say your scholly should be 5-10k/year higher to make Hastings debt more reasonable, but 120k isn't too bad.

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Bronck
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby Bronck » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:29 pm

Agreed, USC isn't worth sticker.

On the flip side, UCH probably won't get you biglaw either, so you might have to change your career goals accordingly.

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FryBreadPower
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby FryBreadPower » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:30 pm

Bronck wrote:Agreed, USC isn't worth sticker.

On the flip side, UCH probably won't get you biglaw either, so you might have to change your career goals accordingly.

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bk1
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:33 pm

Bronck wrote:On the flip side, UCH probably won't get you biglaw either, so you might have to change your career goals accordingly.


Didn't notice that part of the OP.

@OP: If you really want biglaw you need to aim higher (which might require retaking the LSAT). If you truly want CA biglaw I wouldn't settle for less than Boalt (or if you truly just want biglaw anywhere I wouldn't settle for less than a T14).

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bearsEATtrees
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby bearsEATtrees » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:00 pm

Look if you want BigLaw, particularly in Southern California you cannot really beat USC (unless you retake the LSAT). All the employment statistics people currently have are from the three year period where firms were still dealing with the recession and were cutting programs. I can assure you that over 50% of USC's current 2L class will be working in BigLaw this coming summer and presumable after graduation. Hasting's numbers aren't anywhere near that.

Hastings simply doesn't have the BigLaw pull that USC does. UCH is dealing with Stanford and Berkeley in terms of location and MAYBE the top 10% at UCH gets legitimate interviews and eventual call backs with BigLaw firms. USC has the pull with the firms where they dictate who the firms meet and not vice-a-versa.

USC's only real competition for SoCal BigLaw is UCLA and if you look at the make-up of this summer's summer associate classes USC blew UCLA out of the water.

I was making the exact same choice between USC and UCH ($90k). And I can tell you that I haven't regretted my decision to attend USC once. They have a personal interest in getting you hired and that fabled Trojan network is pretty mind blowing. Plus- USC decides who the firms interview where as at UCH the firms decide who they meet and really just simply getting into the room is half the battle and USC takes care of that for you.

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Nelson
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby Nelson » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:07 pm

I can assure you that over 50% of USC's current 2L class will be working in BigLaw this coming summer and presumable after graduation.

O rly?

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flem
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby flem » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:09 pm

Nelson wrote:
I can assure you that over 50% of USC's current 2L class will be working in BigLaw this coming summer and presumable after graduation.

O rly?


Image

And yeah, that sounds retarded.

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bearsEATtrees
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby bearsEATtrees » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:15 pm

Unless you have evidence beyond blind anecdotes from random TLS posters and a disgruntled high school friend who is sitting at the bottom of the curve then you're skepticism is just as suspect. At least my point of view will be validated when the class of 2013's statistics are released.

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flem
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby flem » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:16 pm

bearsEATtrees wrote:Unless you have evidence beyond blind anecdotes from random TLS posters and a disgruntled high school friend who is sitting at the bottom of the curve then you're skepticism is just as suspect. At least my point of view will be validated when the class of 2013's statistics are released.


OK, monster man

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bk1
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:06 pm

bearsEATtrees wrote:Unless you have evidence beyond blind anecdotes from random TLS posters and a disgruntled high school friend who is sitting at the bottom of the curve then you're skepticism is just as suspect. At least my point of view will be validated when the class of 2013's statistics are released.


How about the fact that USC, even in boom times, barely placed over 40% of its class in NLJ250 firms (source: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=181578#p5364240). Obviously the at graduation rate is lowered by clerkships, no-offers, and that some non-NLJ250 firms are still biglaw, but your claim is still, in all likelihood, complete bullshit.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:18 pm

bk1 wrote:
bearsEATtrees wrote:Unless you have evidence beyond blind anecdotes from random TLS posters and a disgruntled high school friend who is sitting at the bottom of the curve then you're skepticism is just as suspect. At least my point of view will be validated when the class of 2013's statistics are released.


How about the fact that USC, even in boom times, barely placed over 40% of its class in NLJ250 firms (source: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=181578#p5364240). Obviously the at graduation rate is lowered by clerkships, no-offers, and that some non-NLJ250 firms are still biglaw, but your claim is still, in all likelihood, complete bullshit.


I was going to say this too until I looked at the numbers for class of 2008.

http://weblaw.usc.edu/careers/statistics/

"Rayiner" percentage (employed in firms over 100 attorneys + Art. III clerkships) is 60%. Things have gone south since then, of course, but the claim isn't as absurd as we might have thought.

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bk1
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:21 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:I was going to say this too until I looked at the numbers for class of 2008.

http://weblaw.usc.edu/careers/statistics/

"Rayiner" percentage (employed in firms over 100 attorneys + Art. III clerkships) is 60%. Things have gone south since then, of course, but the claim isn't as absurd as we might have thought.


Good point, but 2008 grads were the absolute height of the boom. I'm still quite skeptical, though I will admit that there is a decent chance at it being over 40%.

071816
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby 071816 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:25 pm

Given your career goals, I don't think Hastings is giving you enough money to justify picking it over USC. But what puts it over the top for me is the fact that you won't have to take out loans for COL. If I were you I would probably go with USC.

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby Mr. Somebody » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:27 pm

chimp wrote:Given your career goals, I don't think Hastings is giving you enough money to justify picking it over USC. But what puts it over the top for me is the fact that you won't have to take out loans for COL. If I were you I would probably go with USC.


+1 USC seems like the right choice here

calawdude
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby calawdude » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:33 pm

USC is a very good law school, but this is interesting, though: Hastings is a favorite for Reed Smith and Morrison & Foerster when it comes to hiring.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... 20favs.pdf

It's weird. You don't see UCLA or USC on there, and they're both great schools, too.

071816
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby 071816 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:39 pm

calawdude wrote:USC is a very good law school, but this is interesting, though: Hastings is a favorite for Reed Smith and Morrison & Foerster when it comes to hiring.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... 20favs.pdf

It's weird. You don't see UCLA or USC on there, and they're both great schools, too.

Why did you use those two specific firms as the basis for your analysis? Seems pretty irrelevant to me.

Edit: I just looked at the link. You want to look at the total percentage of students from a given school who get these types of jobs rather than whether or not a school was a given firm's "favorite." You also have to take class sizes into account.
Last edited by 071816 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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splitbrain
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby splitbrain » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:45 pm

USC.

I still think Hastings is a better school than its rank conveys, but I can't argue with those employment statistics.

calawdude
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby calawdude » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:59 pm

chimp wrote:
calawdude wrote:USC is a very good law school, but this is interesting, though: Hastings is a favorite for Reed Smith and Morrison & Foerster when it comes to hiring.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... 20favs.pdf

It's weird. You don't see UCLA or USC on there, and they're both great schools, too.

Why did you use those two specific firms as the basis for your analysis? Seems pretty irrelevant to me.

Edit: I just looked at the link. You want to look at the total percentage of students from a given school who get these types of jobs rather than whether or not a school was a given firm's "favorite." You also have to take class sizes into account.

Yea. I was looking for that, and I think I found it actually:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

For the OP, USC would be a great choice, I think, but if you're completely opposed to the idea of paying sticker for USC, and if you do really well at Hastings, you just might end up in biglaw without having to pay all that extra money. It sounds like you'll do pretty well in law school (I'm sure it took some brains to line up multiple tier 1 options), so you might want to consider taking the scholly money and trying to do really well at Hastings.

Also, I really do think Hastings is better than the ranking suggests. I was there at admitted students day and it seems the school is very dismissive of the importance of rankings, but they do recognize that people pay attention to that and are making changes.

Whatever you choose, good luck, man.

071816
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby 071816 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:21 pm

calawdude wrote:
chimp wrote:
calawdude wrote:USC is a very good law school, but this is interesting, though: Hastings is a favorite for Reed Smith and Morrison & Foerster when it comes to hiring.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... 20favs.pdf

It's weird. You don't see UCLA or USC on there, and they're both great schools, too.

Why did you use those two specific firms as the basis for your analysis? Seems pretty irrelevant to me.

Edit: I just looked at the link. You want to look at the total percentage of students from a given school who get these types of jobs rather than whether or not a school was a given firm's "favorite." You also have to take class sizes into account.

Yea. I was looking for that, and I think I found it actually:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

For the OP, USC would be a great choice, I think, but if you're completely opposed to the idea of paying sticker for USC, and if you do really well at Hastings, you just might end up in biglaw without having to pay all that extra money. It sounds like you'll do pretty well in law school (I'm sure it took some brains to line up multiple tier 1 options), so you might want to consider taking the scholly money and trying to do really well at Hastings.

Also, I really do think Hastings is better than the ranking suggests. I was there at admitted students day and it seems the school is very dismissive of the importance of rankings, but they do recognize that people pay attention to that and are making changes.

Whatever you choose, good luck, man.

The link you posted isn't the most recent one. Also, the "trying to do really well at Hastings" approach is pretty risky. It's pretty difficult to predict law school success, so going to a school that will give you more leeway is probably the better option.

I would also caution OP that not getting big law is a very real possibility even at USC, so if you know that you wouldn't be happy without a biglaw job, you may want to reassess your options entirely. Just something to think about.

UCD undergrad
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby UCD undergrad » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:29 am

splitbrain wrote:USC.

I still think Hastings is a better school than its rank conveys, but I can't argue with those employment statistics.


Definitely. Both have great alumni bases, but you'd have to shake more money out of UCH to justify taking it over USC for long-term prospects. The fact that you don't have to worry about living expenses in LA is awesome as well. USC has awesome name ID in So Cal and has the best chance of getting you a great job afterward. I love the UCH facilities and the community feel, but I hear some pretty abysmal things about their job placement.

rad lulz
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:02 am

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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20160810
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:32 pm

Take the money. USC at sticker is a lot of money to gamble on about a 30% chance at biglaw.

bobloblawlaw
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby bobloblawlaw » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:03 am

Bumping this for new discussion. What if I'm not set on biglaw and can see myself just as happy doing mid-law or even working at a small firm or public interest? Does this spike votes in favor of Hastings or does TLS still vote USC @ sticker?

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flem
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Re: USC @ sticker or UC Hastings w/pretty decent scholly?

Postby flem » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:38 am

bobloblawlaw wrote:Bumping this for new discussion. What if I'm not set on biglaw and can see myself just as happy doing mid-law or even working at a small firm or public interest? Does this spike votes in favor of Hastings or does TLS still vote USC @ sticker?


Reading your original post, you only have tuition to pay at USC? No living expenses? So you're looking at like 120-130K worth of debt?

If so I'd do that anyway. Better options all around.

Small firm/PI work is great if you can find it AND you have a small enough debt load to service. Like 60-80K. I wouldn't count on LRAPs since they can be hard to qualify for, but that's me.




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