Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

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dingbat
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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby dingbat » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:44 pm

bk1 wrote:
dingbat wrote:It's been a while since I saw the salary data, but I will say with confidence that half the class earns over 6 figures. (I believe 2010 had 44% earning $145k or more)
Once you include clerkships and self-selecting into PI (or other), it's safe to say that, rougly speaking, 1/3rd get good jobs, 1/3rd get decent jobs, 1/3rd get no/low jobs.

You really think class of 2010 data is that applicable to people going to law school now?

No, I figure someone entering law school now should figure that employment statistics will be worse than 2010 and better than 2011, so an informed decision would involve looking at 2010 as best case, 2011 as worst case and infer a reasonable compromise between the two for class of 2015.

For class of 2011, top 1/3 got biglaw interviews, with a little over 20% getting biglaw. NY also has plenty of other opportunities to earn 6 figures for those who don't get biglaw, so I will stick with my (very rough) divisions (so maybe it's not bottom 1/3rd, but bottom 40%, like I said, these are rough divisions)

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dingbat
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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby dingbat » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:47 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
dingbat wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:Vandy>Fordham all day erry day.

I wouldn't go with a full scholly.
(however, I will concede that Vandy is a better school - but for me personally, it is irrelevant)

Better school + free sounds pretty relevant to me.

Yeah, but it's a little far for me to commute every day. I have a family that I can't just pack into a box, and a home that can't be attached to a trailer. Hence, a full scholly to Vandy wouldn't sway me. (besides, I got a generous scholly at Fordham)

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:51 pm

dingbat wrote:NY also has plenty of other opportunities to earn 6 figures for those who don't get biglaw


This seems questionable in the legal field.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:52 pm

bk1 wrote:
dingbat wrote:NY also has plenty of other opportunities to earn 6 figures for those who don't get biglaw


This seems questionable in the legal field.

+1

check you bimodal salary distribution chart

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dingbat
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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby dingbat » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:12 pm

NLJ250 for 2011:
Vanderbilt 22.05%
Fordham 19.58%

Not exactly a big difference.

I don't feel like looking for the data*, but a lot of NY midlaw jobs pay 6 figures, as does some corporate.
While the bimodal distribution tends to be correct in general, it is less severe in NY
(to be fair, this is partly due to cost of living; earning $105k in NY is equivalent to earning $70k in, say, Florida)

*not a cop-out, I've linked in earlier posts, but I've had a really long day and can't be bothered to do any research right now
Last edited by dingbat on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:13 pm

dingbat wrote:NLJ250 for 2011:
Vanderbilt 22.05%
Fordham 19.58%

Not exactly a big difference.

I don't feel like looking for the data, but a lot of NY midlaw jobs pay 6 figures, as does some corporate.
While the bimodal distribution tends to be correct in general, it is less severe in NY

(to be fair, this is partly due to cost of living and earning $105k in NY is equivalent to earning $70k in, say, Florida)

Save yourself and just stop. Seriously. Contradicting generally-accepted ideas on TLS will only lead to a pissing contest.

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bk1
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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:31 pm

dingbat wrote:I don't feel like looking for the data*, but a lot of NY midlaw jobs pay 6 figures, as does some corporate.
While the bimodal distribution tends to be correct in general, it is less severe in NY
(to be fair, this is partly due to cost of living; earning $105k in NY is equivalent to earning $70k in, say, Florida)

*not a cop-out, I've linked in earlier posts, but I've had a really long day and can't be bothered to do any research right now


I would love to read that data if you can link it later. I'd hazard that the bimodal salary distribution is likely harshest in NYC. Reasoning:

1. Biglaw in smaller markets. Even though they are rare, I'd hazard that collectively they account for more of the middle salaries than does NYC midlaw.
2. NYC firm competition. Due to competition between firms, very few biglaw firms in NYC pay below market. This is less true in places like Chicago where the firms are fewer and students compete harder for these spots so the firms can get away with less pay. This means that middle salaries are rarer in NYC than in other markets.

I wish I had data as this is merely my intuition, but I honestly believe that 100-160k salaries are rarer in NYC than in other places. I'd welcome data that rebuts that but I haven't seen any.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby flem » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:46 pm

ahnhub wrote:
Well, if 35% of Fordham and 75% of NYU get Biglaw (or something equivalent--prestigious PI paid for with LRAP, clerkship, etc...), and you think that's basically it when it comes to "outcomes I can live with after taking out 200k+ in loans," then I would argue that basically makes going to law school anywhere kind of a crazy decision.

Look, I'm not trying to white knight Brooklyn Law School or anything. There are WAY too many law schools and it's a shame. But if everyone that goes there is, either consciously or unconsciously, attempting to win a 10% Biglaw lottery ticket with the other option being total ruin, that speaks volumes to the entire endeavor--and both of us are probably making a mistake right now.


Bro, 58% of ALL law school grades get full time JD required employment. Given the bi-modal salary distribution of graduates, if you paid sticker you're pretty fucked. 9700 NY bar admittees for 2100 jobs. 20% chance of employment (pure odds and lazy reasoning, I know). Why would you not put yourself in the best position to succeed?

If you want to go into PI, go to Rutgers, pay 1/2 the price, and then you're good. It just makes no sense.
Last edited by flem on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby flem » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:47 pm

rwhyAn wrote:You can become governor of NJ. OP, why do you even care?


Why do you care that I care? GTFO out my thread brah

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby flem » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:53 pm

I think that not enough attention is being paid to this article showing there are 9700 bar admitted attorneys competing for 2100 jobs in NY. That is fucking INSANE.

Don't people research this shit? You're way better off going to some random TTT in another state than going to schools like these and expecting to get a job. There's a reason so many of these doc review horror stories are centric on big cities.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:57 pm

flem wrote:You're way better off going to some random TTT in another state than going to schools like these and expecting to get a job.


This is where you're wrong. The chances of getting a full time job as a lawyer are often comparable between low ranked state schools and low ranked NYC schools.

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flem
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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby flem » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:57 pm

dingbat wrote:
flem wrote:Oh not at all. Fordham at sticker is insane.

or a reasonable, but risky gamble. There's decent biglaw placement (top 1/3 will get you an interview) and enough opportunity to earn (low) six figures for the next 1/3 or so.
Bottom third is fucked.
ergo - reasonable, but risky proposition

Dozo and Brooklyn should only be attended with a scholly, though. The other NY law schools should be avoided like the plague, even if free (I'll make an exception for CUNY)


So you have an (at best in this awfully rosy scenario) of landing a job that pays 160K, and you have to pay 200K for the opportunity.

You're statistically better taking 200K and betting it on black.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby flem » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:58 pm

bk1 wrote:
flem wrote:You're way better off going to some random TTT in another state than going to schools like these and expecting to get a job.


This is where you're wrong. The chances of getting a full time job as a lawyer are often comparable between low ranked state schools and low ranked NYC schools.


Are the odds really that much worse or equal going to say, University of South Carolina, which is the only game in town (Charleston School of Law is loltastic) and really cheap than going to BLS or SH?

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:01 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby srfngdd6 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:04 pm

flem wrote:
bk1 wrote:
flem wrote:You're way better off going to some random TTT in another state than going to schools like these and expecting to get a job.


This is where you're wrong. The chances of getting a full time job as a lawyer are often comparable between low ranked state schools and low ranked NYC schools.


Are the odds really that much worse or equal going to say, University of South Carolina, which is the only game in town (Charleston School of Law is loltastic) and really cheap than going to BLS or SH?


I think when people trash TTT and TTTT it is understood that if your going to one of the TTT state schools at in state tuition and are from that state and want to work in that state its not that bad of a choice

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby flem » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:13 pm

rad lulz wrote:There are like no jobs in SC.


This is totally true, so probably a bad example

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby sd5289 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:24 pm

To the OP, what I don't actually understand is why people come here to attend school having never set foot in this city, which seemed to be more the norm at the ASD's I was at in March. I'm really too entrenched now to leave (so thankfully I still like it here), and I simply don't trust the prospect of going somewhere else where I know absolutely no one. I've worked here for years and if there's one incredibly unfair advantage you can be sure I'll be using, it's the fact that I know and am on good terms with the very people in charge of hiring at the agencies I'm interested in working at. With the exception of my entry level job in the legal field, where I busted my ass to make a good impression, every subsequent hire has been because I know someone who knows somebody who can put in a good word. That's just how it works here. Granted, you *might* be able to make some of these connections while in school but let's face it, no one really takes 1L and 2L interns/externs all that seriously anyway. Even if you are an NYU or Columbia kid, you were still facing a market that didn't take every member of your graduating class even before the economy crashed. If you're really dead set on coming to New York (or another heavily saturated market), do yourself a favor: move there, find a job, get used to the shock of $1000+ per month rent, and go to law school only AFTER you've made the connections you'll need to fall back on when it comes to hiring season. Otherwise, stay home. And hey, it can even help you make a more rational decision as to whether or not this is actually the right step for you rather than jumping into it because *gasp* you're 23 and not doing anything with your English degree.

EDIT: Oh, and to answer the original question: people ought to go to these schools, ON scholarship, if they plan to work some kind of city, state, or nonprofit position and cannot afford the tuition of a T14 in say, Michigan (besides, the Brooklyn DA's office, for example, couldn't really give a damn about someone from Ann Arbor). It's not necessary to secure those jobs if you have all of the things I discussed above. I plan on aiming for a Skadden or Equal Justice Works fellowship post-grad, then the DA's office, and then attempt to hit the federal level. I'm playing around with the idea of clerking as well. Point being, I don't want BigLaw. Never have. I understand some people do, but it's not for me. But I certainly wasn't going to pay "BigLaw prices" for a school that had a snowball's chance in hell of getting me there if I wanted to. BLS and Dozo both have fairly good placement in NYC for public interest/gov't work, and I suspect that's why people go there (myself included; I opted for Dozo because I liked it better). However, they'd be nuts to go there w/o substantial scholarship, and I can't understand why I seemed to be in the minority of people bouncing the two off each other in order to get increased scholarship amounts.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby Nelson » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:33 pm

sd5289 wrote:Granted, you *might* be able to make some of these connections while in school but let's face it, no one really takes 1L and 2L interns/externs all that seriously anyway. Even if you are an NYU or Columbia kid, you were still facing a market that didn't take every member of your graduating class even before the economy crashed.

Oh the hyperbole.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby sd5289 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:37 pm

flem wrote:I think that not enough attention is being paid to this article showing there are 9700 bar admitted attorneys competing for 2100 jobs in NY. That is fucking INSANE.


Anecdote: I have spent several lovely winters reviewing 400+ asinine resumes from law students in and just outside the NYC metropolitan area for a placement in my 'public interest' organization. We take 2-3 students per year, and this is just an internship. Out of those 400+ resumes, we have managed to EASILY narrow down to 20, possibly 30, actual contenders. Examples of rejects include the kid who raved about his winning Cash Cab in his cover letter. Another reject I remember clearly didn't get rid of the "free DOC to PDF conversion" ad on his F'ing cover letter which I certainly saw as soon as I opened it. This says nothing about the hundreds of people with ZERO experience in what we do. There's a definitely a ridiculous surplus in students and attorneys in this city; however, I'd argue that over half have no clue what they're doing or want to do so if you can manage at least one of those two things, you've got a better shot than most. :roll:

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby sd5289 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:38 pm

Nelson wrote:
sd5289 wrote:Granted, you *might* be able to make some of these connections while in school but let's face it, no one really takes 1L and 2L interns/externs all that seriously anyway. Even if you are an NYU or Columbia kid, you were still facing a market that didn't take every member of your graduating class even before the economy crashed.

Oh the hyperbole.


Granted. :) Overall point remains.

Edit: For example (never mind the writing, just check out the image), http://abovethelaw.com/2012/02/columbia-asks-alumni-for-1000-to-help-pay-for-biglaw-interviews/.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:14 pm

flem wrote:Are the odds really that much worse or equal going to say, University of South Carolina, which is the only game in town (Charleston School of Law is loltastic) and really cheap than going to BLS or SH?


At equal price they probably aren't that different. Rad's right, places outside of NYC have no jobs. And if you're an outsider to the low ranked state school it's even worse.

There are some places where the T2's in the area are drastically worse than your average T2 (NorCal for example, see SCU/USF/McGeorge), but NYC is not one of those places.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:50 pm

Lots of the people at these schools don't pay sticker. OP aren't you going to DU next year? I really don't see the difference between Seton Hall/Cardozo/BLS and DU.

Edit: just checked the employment numbers that the schools submitted to NALP and all three had better numbers than DU, saturated market or no saturated market.

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby flem » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:30 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Lots of the people at these schools don't pay sticker. OP aren't you going to DU next year? I really don't see the difference between Seton Hall/Cardozo/BLS and DU.

Edit: just checked the employment numbers that the schools submitted to NALP and all three had better numbers than DU, saturated market or no saturated market.


My goal isn't NALP of bust out of DU, and I'm not incurring 100K + to go there. That would be just as retarded.

sd5289 wrote:
flem wrote:I think that not enough attention is being paid to this article showing there are 9700 bar admitted attorneys competing for 2100 jobs in NY. That is fucking INSANE.


Anecdote: I have spent several lovely winters reviewing 400+ asinine resumes from law students in and just outside the NYC metropolitan area for a placement in my 'public interest' organization. We take 2-3 students per year, and this is just an internship. Out of those 400+ resumes, we have managed to EASILY narrow down to 20, possibly 30, actual contenders. Examples of rejects include the kid who raved about his winning Cash Cab in his cover letter. Another reject I remember clearly didn't get rid of the "free DOC to PDF conversion" ad on his F'ing cover letter which I certainly saw as soon as I opened it. This says nothing about the hundreds of people with ZERO experience in what we do. There's a definitely a ridiculous surplus in students and attorneys in this city; however, I'd argue that over half have no clue what they're doing or want to do so if you can manage at least one of those two things, you've got a better shot than most. :roll:


This is loltastic

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:04 pm

Is that article even correct? It makes Florida look like a great legal market.

In Colorado it lists 500+ openings, which would literally provide jerbs to every CU and DU grad. This is not happening.

I know Colorado has lots of transplants but this article provides data that suggests that the plurality of people taking the colorado bar are from out of state law schools. (160 CU + 340 DU = 500 test takers. 1100+ bar passers listed in article).

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Re: Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc?

Postby DTDT » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:40 pm

flem wrote:Seriously, these schools are so expensive and in the most saturated legal market in the country. You have like, a 10% shot a BigLaw out of these places. According to the NYT there were 2100 entry level jobs in NY for 9700 new bar admittees. You have a 20% chance of landing full time employment. How many of those 2100 jobs are snagged up by T14 grads? How many are doc review jobs?


I'm not trolling. Am I right or am I missing something? Please explain this to me.


Passing the bar isn't a good indication of entry-level job seekers. You can pass multiple bar exams. Probably in the best interest of lawyers to take and pass the NY bar, considering the market, regardless of where they are practicing law.




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