T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Best choice?

Columbia (sticker)
39
27%
Northwestern ($90k)
74
50%
Duke ($75k)
11
7%
Michigan ($54k)
4
3%
Penn ($45k)
19
13%
 
Total votes: 147

isaiah53
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T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby isaiah53 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:47 pm

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Last edited by isaiah53 on Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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skers
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby skers » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:48 pm

I'd take NU with 90k.

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Nelson
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby Nelson » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:52 pm

isaiah53 wrote:I understand that the general consensus on TLS is that "T6 is worth sticker" and "if you're going into six-figure debt anyway, you should just choose the school with the best chances for big law"

That is not the general consensus. 90k at Northwestern is a good deal and a perfectly reasonable choice in this situation.

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gaud
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby gaud » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:53 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:I'd take NU with 90k.


I'll second this.

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Chucky21
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby Chucky21 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:54 pm

gaud wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:I'd take NU with 90k.


I'll second this.


I agree too. Take that 90k and run to NU.

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FryBreadPower
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby FryBreadPower » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:56 pm

Chucky21 wrote:
gaud wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:I'd take NU with 90k.


I'll second this.


I agree too. Take that 90k and run to NU.

sandiego222
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby sandiego222 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:06 pm

Remember that NU is going to cost 10K more per year than Duke or Michigan.

Choose based upon personal fit. NU has more biglaw hires than Duke has than Michigan has... because of self-selection. Personal fit is the answer

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quiver
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby quiver » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:18 pm

What would be the total COA at each?

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Funkycrime
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby Funkycrime » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:18 pm

I tentatively chose Columbia knowing NU was probably the better choice.

isaiah53
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby isaiah53 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:23 pm

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Last edited by isaiah53 on Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

isaiah53
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby isaiah53 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:24 pm

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Last edited by isaiah53 on Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nelson
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby Nelson » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:28 pm

isaiah53 wrote:Thanks for the quick responses! Looking at the poll, I see that it's sort of an even match-up between Columbia and Northwestern. So far I've only heard the people supporting NU... Is anybody who voted for Columbia willing to share their thoughts?

Have you tried shopping these offers around? I would try negotiating with all of these schools before deciding.

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rayiner
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby rayiner » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:31 pm

sandiego222 wrote:Remember that NU is going to cost 10K more per year than Duke or Michigan.

Choose based upon personal fit. NU has more biglaw hires than Duke has than Michigan has... because of self-selection. Personal fit is the answer


For C/O 2009, Michigan had 288 / 412 (70%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 187 / 260 (72%) go into private practice.
For C/O 2011, Michigan had 169 / 379 (45%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 184 / 287 (64%) go into private practice.

That seems like a pretty big change peoples' job preferences from 2009 to 2011. Suddenly a ton of people at Michigan "self-selected" out of law firm jobs.

Twit
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby Twit » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:39 pm

Retest.

Sorry.

If you want biglaw, NU is probably the best bet, although you are going to earn that money back pretty quickly anyway.
Three questions:
1) How "sticker" is Columbia? Like, no aid--merit or need based? Straight up $75k per year?
2) You want to work NYC. Have you compared CLS and NU's NYC placement?
3) Do you want to start off/spend the next 3 years in NYC (ie, Columbia) or start in Chicago?

isaiah53
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby isaiah53 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:48 pm

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Last edited by isaiah53 on Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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citygirl000
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby citygirl000 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:52 pm

Nelson wrote:
isaiah53 wrote:Thanks for the quick responses! Looking at the poll, I see that it's sort of an even match-up between Columbia and Northwestern. So far I've only heard the people supporting NU... Is anybody who voted for Columbia willing to share their thoughts?

Have you tried shopping these offers around? I would try negotiating with all of these schools before deciding.


I second this. You should try and negotiate the NU offer with Michigan, then once Michigan bites, negotiate that increased Mich scholarship with Penn and then you can negotiate Penn offer with Columbia.. that's how I would do it. Also, check this out - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27221&start=575

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Dany
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby Dany » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:15 pm

I would not pay sticker at CLS. Of the other options, I'd pick NU, but Duke is also an attractive choice.

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mmk33
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby mmk33 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:31 pm

I'd pick Duke. Keep in mind that the COA at Duke will be lower (chicago >expensive durham).

HeavenWood
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:53 pm

mmk33 wrote:I'd pick Duke. Keep in mind that the COA at Duke will be lower (chicago >expensive durham).

True, but NU's better placement makes it well worth the ~15k+ IMO.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:30 pm

rayiner wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:Remember that NU is going to cost 10K more per year than Duke or Michigan.

Choose based upon personal fit. NU has more biglaw hires than Duke has than Michigan has... because of self-selection. Personal fit is the answer


For C/O 2009, Michigan had 288 / 412 (70%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 187 / 260 (72%) go into private practice.
For C/O 2011, Michigan had 169 / 379 (45%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 184 / 287 (64%) go into private practice.

That seems like a pretty big change peoples' job preferences from 2009 to 2011. Suddenly a ton of people at Michigan "self-selected" out of law firm jobs.

I've seen you post this in multiple threads lately, despite the fact that you're fully aware that the c/o 2011's bidding strategy contributed significantly to what happened to that class's numbers. It's one thing to focus on Chicago when you're at a school that creates legitimate ties for you (NU), but an entirely different strategy when all you have is Michigan linking you to the city. With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to see that NYC was hit first but also recovered first, and Michigan students would have been better off targeting that market; those doing OCI in the fall of 2009, however, (fairly reasonably) thought at the time that they'd have better luck in markets other than NYC, even without ties.

Also, I think NU did particularly well because people with quality work experience did particularly well - that's a credit to the caliber of your classmates, but not necessarily anything particularly unique to NU (other than the fact that it recruits students with good WE). That is to say, if the same NU students went to another school, there's no reason to think they wouldn't do equally well.

In any event, you and I both know that the only thing that matters is how deep into a class a firm will go for students. I imagine that, as a general matter, the vast majority of NYC firms go equally deep into the classes of MVPBDNC. If COA is pretty similar among Duke ($137), Northwestern ($142k), and Michigan ($149k), OP should visit and pick based on feel. If they all feel the same and OP doesn't have any other secondary market preferences, take Duke. But take it easy with your overly simplistic "Michigan 2009->2011 zOMG!" shtick.

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Br3v
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby Br3v » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:33 pm

90k is a lot of k

sandiego222
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby sandiego222 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:42 pm

I feel like people on this forum are heinously wrong about "placement"

People make statements like: Look at NU's placement! It's the best for biglaw!


This is so mistaken. People at different schools self-select different markets/ different types of law.

A better question would be: how many spots do big firms have for NU grads? How many for Michigan grads? How many for Duke?

And then

How many NU grads apply for those spots? How many Michigan grads? How many Duke grads?

If we had THOSE numbers, and you could compare your PERCENTAGE odds of getting a biglaw job, then we'd really know how to talk about "placement"


I'd love there to be a forum-wide effort to clear this up 8)

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rayiner
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby rayiner » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:51 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:I've seen you post this in multiple threads lately, despite the fact that you're fully aware that the c/o 2011's bidding strategy contributed significantly to what happened to that class's numbers.


My point is that it wasn't self-selection, as Sandiego claimed ("NU has more biglaw hires than Duke has than Michigan has... because of self-selection.") There are a host of reasons that could explain the data--my point is just that self selection isn't one of those reasons. Your claim re: bidding strategy, for example, is a credible explanation.

In any event, you and I both know that the only thing that matters is how deep into a class a firm will go for students. I imagine that, as a general matter, the vast majority of NYC firms go equally deep into the classes of MVPBDNC.


I do think NYC firms go equally deep into MVBDNC (I've seen callback data at Penn and I think NYC firms go a little deeper there). I don't think that's the only thing that matters. Firms don't just hire based on grades--there is a probabilistic element. Just because you're in the grade range doesn't mean you'll get an offer. Other things can increase or decrease the probability of getting an offer. Things like # of interviews per student, amount of competition for particular firms, etc, factor into the calculus. E.g. Kirkland Chicago took 15 NU folks in 2011 and just a few Michigan folks. That alone took like a third of law review out of the competition for other firms, raising the odds for everyone else, even though that had no bearing on how deep other firms were willing to go in the class.

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rayiner
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby rayiner » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:54 pm

sandiego222 wrote:People at different schools self-select different markets/ different types of law.


The problem with this statement is that it doesn't explain the data.

For C/O 2009, Michigan had 288 / 412 (70%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 187 / 260 (72%) go into private practice.
For C/O 2011, Michigan had 169 / 379 (45%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 184 / 287 (64%) go into private practice.

In 2009 there was essentially no difference. In 2011, you're saying a 20% gap can be explained by self selection? Is it people's preferences that changed between 2009 and 2011, or was it maybe an epic recession?

I'm totally happy to believe that the data is a one-time anomaly caused by Michigan's CSO giving bad advice for that year. That's not "self selection" however.

blase33
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Re: T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$)

Postby blase33 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:20 pm

Even with 90K at NU I think you have to go to Penn or CLS. If you really want NYC big law, choose between the best school in the city or a T10 with 45K. NU should not even be in consideration




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