Baylor or Texas Tech Forum

[imbored25]

Tech

[sandlot]

Some of the advice on this thread is strange...to say the least. If your goal is to work in Austin, and those are your two choices...go to Baylor. Baylor has a very strong alumni network in Austin, actually. There are many, many top attorneys in town that attended Baylor. It is indeed actually worth the additional cost over Tech.

Yes, attending UT would be better...but that doesn't appear to be realistic for the circumstance.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Some of the advice on this thread is strange...to say the least. If your goal is to work in Austin, and those are your two choices...go to Baylor. Baylor has a very strong alumni network in Austin, actually. There are many, many top attorneys in town that attended Baylor. It is indeed actually worth the additional cost over Tech.

Yes, attending UT would be better...but that doesn't appear to be realistic for the circumstance.

+1

The representative for Austin area is a Baylor Law alum, way better network than Tech.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Either way, Tech is alot less stressfull in that 3rd year, is cheaper, and is usually better for finding judicial clerkships on average.

Cite? No way this is true. Maybe more Tech grads take 38k a year trial court clerkships out of law school, but that is not "better for judicial clerkships on average."

The only thing Baylor will do for you is put you further in debt and give you some experience in litigation, which you dont really need.

Unless you want JAG/DA/PD/small-law crime defense? Maybe you don't want these things, but you cannot say to OP "you don't really need" these things.


Look OP, there is a ton of irrational Baylor hate on this website. If I were you and the cost difference was more than 30k, I'd do Tech. That is just me though, maybe you have more money than me or different career goals. There are certainly advantages of going to Baylor over Tech, just as there are different advantages of going to Tech over Baylor. Baylor does have a better rep across Texas than Tech-- its reputation survey score with judges/lawyers is always on par with SMU/UH, and has always been higher than UH in fact. Baylor has a 3.4 where Tech has a 2.8, per 2012 results. Baylor is a good school and when you graduate people in Texas and surrounding states will know that you accomplished something difficult, especially if you have decent grades coming out of Baylor. What others have said in respect to the competitiveness is probably absolutely correct though-- my cycle, they gave more people money than could possible keep the money ( like 80% of the class had to be in the top 50% to keep money ). Shit is expensive there so you can imagine how competitive it must be. Your 1L year you could literally be working, or could be around others that are working, to save yourself/themselves from another 90k in debt!

If it were me, I'd do Tech but don't listen to all this chatter on TLS. Ridiculous.

[legalese_retard]

Some of the advice on this thread is strange...to say the least. If your goal is to work in Austin, and those are your two choices...go to Baylor. Baylor has a very strong alumni network in Austin, actually. There are many, many top attorneys in town that attended Baylor. It is indeed actually worth the additional cost over Tech.

Yes, attending UT would be better...but that doesn't appear to be realistic for the circumstance.

Most on here have been suggesting that the OP wait another year and retake the LSAT. I agree that a Baylor grad has a better shot at Austin over a Tech grad with a similar class ranking, but Austin is a difficult market to break into, even for UT grads.

Graduating with little debt means the OP can afford to be a little more picky about job offers. Many of my classmates wanted to move to Austin and were more than happy with a position in a state agency, but the pay was not enough to support their student loan payments.

If a federal clerkship is what the OP is gunning for, then he will need to be in the top 10% at Baylor or Tech to be considered. The "edge" given to a Baylor grad over a Tech grad is not as large of an edge as a UT grad over a Baylor grad.

[b.gump81]

just a quick glance on the Texas state bar website shows that there are actually more tech grads in Austin than Baylor.

http://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm ... ntID=13354

Now it doesn't show a break down of what type of employment, but the overrall employment data between the two schools is actually pretty similar (lord Randolph will know better than I do because he has the nalp numbers). But I don't see how a reputation score and a slight edge for biglaw is anywhere near the extra COA or benefit of being able to say you were "tough" by going to bayor

[T00L]

Do you mind your lsat, UGPA, name, ethnicity, scholarship (or lack thereof) being known by everyone in the whole class?

If so, Tech.

[mtyler19]

Do you mind your lsat, UGPA, name, ethnicity, scholarship (or lack thereof) being known by everyone in the whole class?

If so, Tech.

+1

or retake.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

just a quick glance on the Texas state bar website shows that there are actually more tech grads in Austin than Baylor.

http://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm ... ntID=13354

Now it doesn't show a break down of what type of employment, but the overrall employment data between the two schools is actually pretty similar (lord Randolph will know better than I do because he has the nalp numbers). But I don't see how a reputation score and a slight edge for biglaw is anywhere near the extra COA or benefit of being able to say you were "tough" by going to bayor

For Baylor, 74% of the class of 2010 were employed in full-time JD required gigs nine months out.

18.5% of the class were known to clear 80k.


For Tech, 71% of the class 2010 were employed in full-time JD required gigs nine months out.

6% of the class were known to clear 80k.


It looks like Baylor clearly has better employment numbers than Tech. However, for me this difference would not be worth more than 30k. For others, I know that it would. I doubt it that anyone could make a rational argument that Baylor is worth 100k more than Tech from a financial standpoint. A side point-- from Baylor's email-gate release and the numbers they submit to NALP and USNEWS regarding their incoming classes, it would appear that the student body at Baylor is more talented than the student body at Tech. I think this is a point for Tech, though.

It looks like being in the top 10% at Tech is = to be in the top 20% at Baylor. I would wager a guess that it is about equally as difficult to be in the top 10% at Tech than it is to be in the top 20% at Baylor. Many on TLS seem to disagree on this point.

I would go to Tech if it saved you significant money. Debt and compound interest are soul-crushing.

[ninjoshua]

Retaking is not part of my plans. I’m already going to be almost 38 when I graduate if I start this fall. One more year may not seem like that big of a deal when you’re 24, but at my age it matters.
It’s looking like Tech will be the clear choice because A) I heard back from Baylor and they’re offering no money and B) I can start Tech this fall whereas I would have to wait till spring to start at Baylor (in which case I may as well retake and delay till fall 2013).

...it would appear that the student body at Baylor is more talented than the student body at Tech. I think this is a point for Tech, though.

It looks like being in the top 10% at Tech is = to be in the top 20% at Baylor. I would wager a guess that it is about equally as difficult to be in the top 10% at Tech than it is to be in the top 20% at Baylor. Many on TLS seem to disagree on this point.

I would go to Tech if it saved you significant money. Debt and compound interest are soul-crushing.

I was thinking along these lines as well.
Additionally, the general feel I got from the student body and administration at each school when I visited should not be overlooked.

I understand and am even excited about the fact that law school is going to be the most challenging thing I’ve ever done in my life.
(+1 Tech) However, I got the strong impression that the administration at Tech really wants you to succeed, and does everything in its power to help you. This may be in part because they are trying to build their reputation, and need a greater number of successful students to do so.

(+1 Tech) The administration at Baylor reminded me of the Capitol in the Hunger Games. They are completely satisfied to see the tributes (students) fight to the death because they’re not going to look bad if only a few strong students survive with their mental health intact.

(+1 Baylor) On the other hand, a fiercely competitive environment may be where I thrive, and the practice court excites me.
(+1 Tech) Of course I could try to get onto an advocacy team at Tech and be around people who actually want to practice litigation, as opposed to a bunch of people being forced to practice it.

(+1 Tech) Baylor seems to treat their 1Ls like they are fresh out of high school. For example, I was told that most 1L professors don’t allow laptops for note-taking. If you don’t have the self-control to stay off of facebook in class, law school may not be the right place for you.

I want to clarify my career goals. I will probably look at seeking a clerkship, but I’m not going to have unrealistic hopes. I am not dead set on Austin, and I may not have a desire to live there in 3 years when the population has increased to an even more ridiculous level.
I will be overjoyed if I can find a ~60k job at a mid-size firm out of law school doing research and writing, as long as it is not in Lubbock :p
As far as academia, I just meant I would like to get to the point in my career where I can retire and then still teach something like undergrad business law as adjunct prof for fun.

I can't stress enough how much I appreciate everyone's advice here. Thanks again.

[b.gump81]

Baylor:
$43,479 Tuition/fees
$10,554 Room/board
$1,671 Books
$4,443 Transportation
$3,801 Personal/Misc.
$63,948 Total
$191,844 Three-year Total

2008:
-153 students total
-14 students in firms 101-500+ (9.15%)
-14 students in judicial clerkships (9.15%)

2009:
-130 students total
-16 students in firms 101-500+ (12.3%)
-7 students in clerkships (5.3%)

2010:
-162 students
-11 students in firms 101-500+ (6.7%)
-7 in judicial clerkships (4.3%)


Texas Tech:
$22,339 Tuition/fees In-state ($30,829 Out-of-state)
$8,606 Room/board
$1,200 Books
$2,000 Transportation
$2,566 Personal/Misc.
$36,711 Total ($45,201 Out-of-state)
$110,133 Three-year Total ($135,603 Out-of-state)

2008:
-240 students total
-15 students in firms 101-500+ (6.25%)
-11 students in judicial clerkships (4.5%)

2009:
-206 students total
-14 students in firms 101-500+ (6.8%)
-9 students in judicial clerkships (4.36%)

2010:
-210 students total
-9 students in firms 101-500+ (4.3%)
-11 students in judicial clerkships (5.2%)

I couldn’t find the firm breakdown for any year after 2008, so I wont try and speculate. However, the slight advantage Baylor may have in biglaw is significantly minimal. It is definitely not worth the extra $80,000 or so in extra COA. These schools are arguably peer schools, despite the large gap in their USNWR rankings. And when you add the competitiveness/being miserable and the extra debt, I think Tech becomes the better pick.


EDIT: i updated the Tech info from the site provided below.

[Smooth Sail]

Personality Type:
1. If you are an enterprising person, it does not matter what law school you attend. You will work yourself past your own limit and achieve your objective. 2. If you need someone to hold your hand when you cross the street, then you have to attend a so-called "high ranking" school to hold your hands.

Both Baylor and Tech have solid curriculums. If you can handle three years of legal education from either school, pass all required courses, and pass the Bar, you will become an attorney (fact).

Ask yourself this:
Would you buy a crispy red apple for $3.00 at Wholefoods, or spend $1.50 for the same type of apple at Trader Joes? They both fill you up, supply nutrition, and allow you to make it to your next meal. However, one cost half the price. If you chose Trader Joes, you would have money left over to buy yourself another apple the next day.

It is a rough road ahead for all of us. In the end, most will hold the title J.D. after their name. The least we can do is ride the bumps with less debt. Don't forget, in a job interview, you sell yourself not your school's name.

Be wise and choose Texas Tech. Good luck and God bless!

Respectfully,

Smooth Sail

[kalvano]

Personality Type:
1. If you are an enterprising person, it does not matter what law school you attend. You will work yourself past your own limit and achieve your objective. 2. If you need someone to hold your hand when you cross the street, then you have to attend a so-called "high ranking" school to hold your hands.

Don't forget, in a job interview, you sell yourself not your school's name.

Not sure if flame, moron, or incredibly naive.

[Nova]

Personality Type:
1. If you are an enterprising person, it does not matter what law school you attend. You will work yourself past your own limit and achieve your objective. 2. If you need someone to hold your hand when you cross the street, then you have to attend a so-called "high ranking" school to hold your hands.

Don't forget, in a job interview, you sell yourself not your school's name.

Not sure if flame, moron, or incredibly naive.

He is incredibly naive. You can tell that he is being sincere by looking at his own "choosing a law school" thread.

Also... Hes going to tech.

[tigger22]

Personality Type:
1. If you are an enterprising person, it does not matter what law school you attend. You will work yourself past your own limit and achieve your objective. 2. If you need someone to hold your hand when you cross the street, then you have to attend a so-called "high ranking" school to hold your hands.

Don't forget, in a job interview, you sell yourself not your school's name.

Not sure if flame, moron, or incredibly naive.

Not that I know anything, but I'll vote for incredibly naive.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Personality Type:
1. If you are an enterprising person, it does not matter what law school you attend. You will work yourself past your own limit and achieve your objective.

If a person wants to hang up their own shingle after law school, then sure this is true. But it takes a pretty specific type of person to be able to do that right after law school (and succeed at it).

2. If you need someone to hold your hand when you cross the street, then you have to attend a so-called "high ranking" school to hold your hands.

Misleading. If you want to maximize your chances at a biglaw job, then you should consider a school's placement numbers, which correlate somewhat to rankings.

Both Baylor and Tech have solid curriculums.

Sure, I don't think anyone has questioned the quality of teaching at either school.

If you can handle three years of legal education from either school, pass all required courses, and pass the Bar, you will become an attorney (fact).

Completely and utterly false. Becoming an attorney requires getting a legal job. Many people who go to Baylor and Tech, handle all three years of legal education, pass all required courses, pass the bar, and.....then whiff on finding a legal job.

I think you are mistaking the attitude that is prevalent on this site for elitism when it really is closer to a pragmatic mindset (something along the lines of "what can maximize chances at biglaw or other desired legal job while minimizing debt").

[Smooth Sail]

Dear Ninjoshua,

Yes, I received help from many folks on TLS. I wanted to give back by giving you my recommendation. On my thread, I requested recommendations based from the curriculum strength of each school, not ranking.

Apparently, I am naive...so allow me to give you one TINY example of this big law thing that continues to float around TLS as if it is the only thing EVERY law student wants after graduation.

Go to: http://www.bakermckenzie.com/ourpeople/ ... 98bdd5f28f

This is an example of four Texas Tech law grads that are currently working for the #1 law firm in the world. dla piper, #2 law firm in the world, has two Baylor law grads.

I'm sure I could find more examples of Baylor and Tech grads at the top 250 law firms. Please feel free to do your own research, I recommend calling the law offices over just internet research. So far, I have been able to speak to at least an associate at every firm I've contacted. Some, I have had to make phone appointments, especially when I request to speak with partners.

In the end, if both schools appear all over the map (big law, private practice, etc...), why not choose the cheaper school?

The people who called me naive must have the second personality. Apparently, they need a high ranking school to wipe their butts too.

Respectfully,

Smooth Sail

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Dear Ninjoshua,

Yes, I received help from many folks on TLS. I wanted to give back by giving you my recommendation. On my thread, I requested recommendations based from the curriculum strength of each school, not ranking.

Apparently, I am naive...so allow me to give you one TINY example of this big law thing that continues to float around TLS as if it is the only thing EVERY law student wants after graduation.

Go to: http://www.bakermckenzie.com/ourpeople/ ... 98bdd5f28f

This is an example of four Texas Tech law grads that are currently working for the #1 law firm in the world. DLA Piper, #2 law firm in the world, has two Baylor law grads.

I'm sure I could find more examples of Baylor and Tech grads at the top 250 law firms. Please feel free to do your own research, I recommend calling the law offices over just internet research. So far, I have been able to speak to at least an associate at every firm I've contacted. Some, I have had to make phone appointments, especially when I request to speak with partners.

In the end, if both schools appear all over the map (big law, private practice, etc...), why not choose the cheaper school?

The people who called me naive must have the second personality. Apparently, they need a high ranking school to wipe their butts too.

Respectfully,

Smooth Sail

Hey Smooth Sail,

I know you have good intentions, but you are 1) making poor arguments and 2) showing yourself to be misinformed.

First off, Baker McKenzie might be the largest law firm in the U.S., but I don't know of anyone who considers it the "best." It's essentially the McDonald's of law firms. They are everywhere and there's nothing too special about them. dla piper was a running joke pre-ITE: don't slack off at a T14 or you might end up at dla piper. (Of course, ITE that attitude has changed quite a bit for most people.)

If you want to figure out how a school places their grads, you have to look at their employment data--not just how many random grads they have at different places. UT has had a few SCOTUS clerks over the past decade, but that says nothing of the chances that any particular UT student has of doing that (it is insanely, insanely small chance).

So what was Texas Tech's placement at firms over 100+ lawyers for 2011? 3. Not percent, but 3 total people. (So 1.5% of the class.) One is making 50k a year, one is making 85k a year, and one is making 120k a year. That's a bit depressing. Not one(!!!) person in the class of 2011 could get a market paying job. Baylor's numbers are a bit better, but I agree with you that they are still low enough to not justify paying sticker at baylor. Sticker at Tech is not nearly as expensive, but someone should think really hard about what they want to do post law school before attending and incurring a lot of debt with no high paying job to help pay it off.

I understand your situation is different since you won't have any debt, but your optimism is misleading and damaging to others who will be taking on significant debt.

ETA: http://www.law.ttu.edu/career/employment_data.asp

[kalvano]

First off, in what world is Baker the #1 law firm for anything other than sheer size? Just because Wal-Mart might be the largest retailer around, it doesn't mean they are better than Nordstrom.

Second, congratulations, you managed to find four people out of over a hundred that graduated at the very top of their class and got lucky. Also, three of them graduated in 2002, well, well before the economic recession hit.

And third, most all law schools have pretty much the same curriculum. It doesn't matter where you go as far as classes. What matters is the name on the diploma. The strength of the school is its ranking, for the most part.

I'm still leaning towards elaborate flame, but I could also be convinced you are just an amazing mixture of naive and ignorant.

[Nova]

ETA: sorry, my comments seemed to harsh.

[Smooth Sail]

Yes, I have my tuition covered, but I still have five mouths to feed and everything else that goes along with it.

I'm sorry for misleading you, Ninjoshua, by telling you to take the less expensive route. You gave two options, Baylor and Tech. Based on your options, I recommended Tech. I had a few more options than you with tuition fully covered (two more offers came in today), and I still choose Tech. I personally like the school and feel it is a good fit for me. You have to decide for yourself which is the better fit.

Again, in the interview room, you sell yourself. Employers know the difficulties of law school and applaud you for your accomplishments. If you are what they want, and they can tolerate having you around for eight to twelve hours a day, then you will probably get the job. Don't double your debt for the same education, because you want to hide behind a "name."

Be the guy who can sell ice to an Eskimo.

Respectfully,

Smooth Sail

[bk1]

Retaking is not part of my plans. I’m already going to be almost 38 when I graduate if I start this fall. One more year may not seem like that big of a deal when you’re 24, but at my age it matters.

The difference between 24 and 25 is marginal.

The difference between 38 and 39 is also marginal.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Yes, I have my tuition covered, but I still have five mouths to feed and everything else that goes along with it.

I'm sorry for misleading you, Ninjoshua, by telling you to take the less expensive route. You gave two options, Baylor and Tech. Based on your options, I recommended Tech. I had a few more options than you with tuition fully covered (two more offers came in today), and I still choose Tech. I personally like the school and feel it is a good fit for me. You have to decide for yourself which is the better fit.

Again, in the interview room, you sell yourself. Employers know the difficulties of law school and applaud you for your accomplishments. If you are what they want, and they can tolerate having you around for eight to twelve hours a day, then you will probably get the job. Don't double your debt for the same education, because you want to hide behind a "name."

Be the guy who can sell ice to an Eskimo.

Respectfully,

Smooth Sail

I wish the legal industry worked like you describe it. And I think you are giving good advice with the decision limited to Tech and Baylor. But legal hiring isn't so fair, and OP really has more options than paying sticker at Tech or Baylor--He can retake the LSAT and reapply to schools that will give him a better chance at fulfilling his career goals.

On to legal hiring: In most circumstances, to get interviews with many firms you will need to go to the right school and have the right GPA. It's really that simple. Going to Tech or Baylor greatly limits the firms that will even interview you and many of the firms that do interview 2Ls at either school will only want the very top of the class. (Baylor does have an advantage in terms of schools that come to their OCI and firms will do deeper when hiring...but to repeat I agree that Baylor and this increase in employment is not worth sticker there.) Thus, for many firms most 2Ls at these schools will never get a chance to shine during an interview b/c no interview will be given. This is why the LSAT is so important--a few points can change the range of schools a person is competitive at and this change in range can greatly increase job prospects. The legal world is a snobby one, like it or not.

[b.gump81]

If you can handle three years of legal education from either school, pass all required courses, and pass the Bar, you will become an attorney (fact).

Completely and utterly false. Becoming an attorney requires getting a legal job. Many people who go to Baylor and Tech, handle all three years of legal education, pass all required courses, pass the bar, and.....then whiff on finding a legal job.

I think you are mistaking the attitude that is prevalent on this site for elitism when it really is closer to a pragmatic mindset (something along the lines of "what can maximize chances at biglaw or other desired legal job while minimizing debt").

This is a little off too. In terms of just full-time legal jobs, UT had 80% of its 2010 class in full-time jobs that required a JD. Tech had 78% in full-time jobs that require a JD. Now, I totally agree with you: UT is by and far an objectively better school. Although, those numbers are essentially the same, UT will have higher quality jobs than the ones a Tech student will have. The same goes for Baylor and Tech, but it is to a much, much smaller degree, and this was the point that I was trying to show earlier.

And, although Smooth Sail is being a little naive about job placement of Baylor and Tech, I think he is correct in saying just that these schools will give you a good shot at becoming an attorney (Tech had 78%, and Baylor had 74%). Although Tech is ranked 101, it is comparable to some higher ranked schools, including Baylor, in this regard.

Now, I edited my earlier post to include the stats from the site you provided (thank you by the way), and the numbers are slightly higher for Baylor, but they are surprisingly a lot closer than one would think if you only looked at their respective USNWR rankings. The extra "chance" that one may get biglaw from Baylor is not worth the extra COA and misery, because it is such a small increase. Baylor and Tech are essentially peer schools, despite their ranking disparity.

[nouseforaname123]

Apparently, I am naive...so allow me to give you one TINY example of this big law thing that continues to float around TLS as if it is the only thing EVERY law student wants after graduation.

Go to: http://www.bakermckenzie.com/ourpeople/ ... 98bdd5f28f

All three TTU associates at Baker graduated summa cum laude. Assuming TTU reserves that honor for their top 1%, I'm not sure what to make of that. Summa should land a a better firm, IMHO.

Not one(!!!) person in the class of 2011 could get a market paying job.

This is incorrect. What you should say is that Tech is not reporting a single 2011 grad in a market paying job.

Assuming NALP salary information is correct, I know for a fact that at least one 2011 Tech grad landed a $160k job in Texas because I was interviewed by that grad at the market paying firm. I will not link the bio because the firm has a relatively small SA class and I will be there this summer. That said, your general point still stands.

Also, I think the "Baylor = hyper-competitive, pages being ripped out" meme is overplayed by TLS. I am no fan of Baylor law. I do go back to Waco during the football season and I'll occasionally study in the Baylor law library prior to football games. 1. The library is usually a ghost town on Saturdays, even at 10 AM for 6 PM kickoffs. It is certainly more empty than the SMU law library on weekends. 2. From what I can tell, students are either assigned or simply claim individual study desks in the library. They then leave their books out in the open on those desks, including their binders for Practice Court. If the place truly were that competitive and pages were being ripped out, students would not leave their books out in the open like that.