USC 90K vs. Cornell Sticker Forum

[johansantana21]

the difference between $120k and $220k debt is much more than $100k.

NYC Biglaw is not something that any rational person should aspire to. Best case scenario out of Cornell you'll have all your debt paid off by 2020. That's a lot of seventy hour weeks just to break even. Non-best-case scenarios are unthinkable.

USC, unquestionably.

If you allow the lay prestige of Cornell to sway you in this decision it will bite you in the ass.

NYC biglaw is what most non-HYS people aspire to. Are you dumb?

Most of the people without top 20%ish grades at schools like NU will end up in NYC, not Chicago.

Same thing with schools like Gtown or Duke.

And Cornell self-selects into NYC more than you think. I know 2L's in the top 10% who had Boston/Chicago offers but took V5 firms at NYC instead.

[Wart]

Stay home, be near family, and don't freeze.

Oh and USC's football team is ranked #1 for next season.

[seancris]

Is a quarter of a million really that much crazier than 220-240k at other T14's?

No, I wouldn't pay that much at any school other than HYS.

And OP should understand that in 2009 Cornell placed only around 50% into NLJ250 & art. III clerkships.

And the year before that? The year after that? Exactly.

Lower T14 is interchangeable. Stop sounding silly.

If you're going to invest that much money you should use the lowest year (09) as your baseline. And if you even read the post you quote you would know that I'm arguing against sticker at lower T14, not just Cornell. Your assertion that they are "interchangeable" doesn't contradict anything I've said.

[crumpetsandtea]

It honestly sounds like you came here just to try to get us to validate your urge to go to Cornell. Just so you know, no one here can make this decision for you. We are all commenting based on our own personal preferences -- what kind of law do WE want to practice? How debt averse are WE? Which area do WE prefer? These issues are going to bias the responses that you get here.

If I were you, I would take the $90K at USC. ESPECIALLY if you're ok with making less than $160K and you're okay with staying in California. I'm one of the people on this board that was ready to take a lower T14 at sticker (though luckily I've been saved from that option, kinda) but only because I had no better offers in any of the regions I wanted to practice in. If I'd had an offer like yours, I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

[ocuviper]

It honestly sounds like you came here just to try to get us to validate your urge to go to Cornell. Just so you know, no one here can make this decision for you. We are all commenting based on our own personal preferences -- what kind of law do WE want to practice? How debt averse are WE? Which area do WE prefer? These issues are going to bias the responses that you get here.

If I were you, I would take the $90K at USC. ESPECIALLY if you're ok with making less than $160K and you're okay with staying in California. I'm one of the people on this board that was ready to take a lower T14 at sticker (though luckily I've been saved from that option, kinda) but only because I had no better offers in any of the regions I wanted to practice in. If I'd had an offer like yours, I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

The problem is although I am okay with making less than $160K, I am 100% not okay with making less than 90K. Cornell from what I hear is a cool place and it can feed into BigLaw easier, which is better than making nothing. That is where the issue lies my forum friends

but thx so much for all your tips so far theyve helped me weigh the plusses and minuses well

[Chucky21]

It honestly sounds like you came here just to try to get us to validate your urge to go to Cornell. Just so you know, no one here can make this decision for you. We are all commenting based on our own personal preferences -- what kind of law do WE want to practice? How debt averse are WE? Which area do WE prefer? These issues are going to bias the responses that you get here.

If I were you, I would take the $90K at USC. ESPECIALLY if you're ok with making less than $160K and you're okay with staying in California. I'm one of the people on this board that was ready to take a lower T14 at sticker (though luckily I've been saved from that option, kinda) but only because I had no better offers in any of the regions I wanted to practice in. If I'd had an offer like yours, I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

The problem is although I am okay with making less than $160K, I am 100% not okay with making less than 90K. Cornell from what I hear is a cool place and it can feed into BigLaw easier, which is better than making nothing. That is where the issue lies my forum friends

but thx so much for all your tips so far theyve helped me weigh the plusses and minuses well

I know this is a tough decision, and it seems like you have listed out the pros and cons of attending either USC or Cornell. You are correct, you can feed into a biglaw job with greater ease at Cornell. The number of 80% placement into firms of 100 attorneys or higher may seem like it's unbelievable, but I doubt a school like Cornell would relay false information, their reputation speaks for itself and they have no desire to jeapordize it.

A quarter of a million dollars in debt is a lot of money though. However, if you live frugally, use your SA money to pay off some of that accrued interest, and land that biglaw job, then in my opinion it would be worth it. I know working 70+ hours is not for everyone, but ulitmately those of us that do want biglaw recognize that hard work comes with the territory. The opportunities you will have from Cornell, and then biglaw, will most likely surmount what you would achieve from USC from a career perspective. A lot of people get out of biglaw afte 5 years and go in-house etc. You WILL have more/better options coming out of biglaw.

Of course this is my view, but if you want a career in biglaw and the opportunities that come with it, I would seriously consider Cornell, even at sticker.

[johansantana21]

Is a quarter of a million really that much crazier than 220-240k at other T14's?

No, I wouldn't pay that much at any school other than HYS.

And OP should understand that in 2009 Cornell placed only around 50% into NLJ250 & art. III clerkships.

And the year before that? The year after that? Exactly.

Lower T14 is interchangeable. Stop sounding silly.

If you're going to invest that much money you should use the lowest year (09) as your baseline. And if you even read the post you quote you would know that I'm arguing against sticker at lower T14, not just Cornell. Your assertion that they are "interchangeable" doesn't contradict anything I've said.

Using the lowest % as the baseline is silly. So I guess Duke, Michigan, and Georgetown regularly places below 50% (BIGLAW+A3 Clerkships) as well?

[shmoo597]

cornell is hardly national. in california, USC has more prestige, cache, and alumni then cornell. so don't think your options in california will be better coming from "national" cornell over USC.

frankly, you'd be a complete retard to go to cornell at sticker over 90k at USC, especially coming from california. there's really nothing more to be said. /thread.

[woeisme]

cornell is hardly national. in california, USC has more prestige, cache, and alumni then [than] cornell

FTFY!

[sunynp]

Remember Cornell biglaw stats are primarily New York based. Are you willing to relocate to New York permanently?

You should take the money at USC.

[coldshoulder]

Cornell sticker is insane.

[t14fanboy]

Cornell sticker is insane.

[moneybagsphd]

cornell is hardly national. in california, USC has more prestige, cache, and alumni then [than] cornell

FTFYM!

FTFY. Cornell has a national reputation, but it's primarily going to feed into NYC biglaw. If you're OK with CA, USC is clearly the better option, especially with 90k on the table.

[moneybagsphd]

Cornell sticker is insane.

[Lincoln]

FWIW everyone I know from Cornell c/o 2013 who wanted an offer in CA got one.

[horrorbusiness]

cornell is hardly national. in california, USC has more prestige, cache, and alumni then [than] cornell

FTFY!

as a native californian who has always been disturbed with cult mentality and boosterism surrounding USC, thank you. but i agree cornell at sticker is pretty terrifying.

[sunynp]

It honestly sounds like you came here just to try to get us to validate your urge to go to Cornell. Just so you know, no one here can make this decision for you. We are all commenting based on our own personal preferences -- what kind of law do WE want to practice? How debt averse are WE? Which area do WE prefer? These issues are going to bias the responses that you get here.

If I were you, I would take the $90K at USC. ESPECIALLY if you're ok with making less than $160K and you're okay with staying in California. I'm one of the people on this board that was ready to take a lower T14 at sticker (though luckily I've been saved from that option, kinda) but only because I had no better offers in any of the regions I wanted to practice in. If I'd had an offer like yours, I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

The problem is although I am okay with making less than $160K, I am 100% not okay with making less than 90K. Cornell from what I hear is a cool place and it can feed into BigLaw easier, which is better than making nothing. That is where the issue lies my forum friends

but thx so much for all your tips so far theyve helped me weigh the plusses and minuses well

You can't guarantee biglaw salary from either school. I just cringe when people assume that they will be making $160,000 or "even" $90,000 from law school. Many times people are calculating their after tax salary when they haven't even had a single law school class. Are you assuming you will make at least $90,000 if you go to Cornell? You really don't know what will happen. People do strike out. If you strike out, you will be much better off having no debt.

Also, and this is important, if you are going to law school for money and prestige you might be disappointed. If you expect to make close to $100,000 you may well be disappointed. Even if you get biglaw, that career is not likely to last long. Once people are out of biglaw, their salary varies widely. You are much smarter to not go into debt.

[s.pathan]

I would definitely choose USC; 90k and you have ties to the city? that's a win. and Southern Cali>Ithaca

[Stupendous_Man]

This may cause a riot, but in my view, if x% of a law school is landing the biglaw jobs, YOUR chances of landing a biglaw job aren't x%. It's not like you're just rolling dice here. If you got $90k and acceptance into a higher ranked school, you're more likely than the average to do well, and get the job you want. That's why they gave you a scholarship.

All that aside, there's 0 chance I would take Cornell at sticker over USC with that much $. Your employment chances aren't so significantly improved, and if you're trying to stay in LA/SoCal, they're arguably not improved at all (or even decreased). That, plus the freedom you gain in life from having $90k less debt + interest accrued, isn't worth whatever feverish desire you have to live in the sprawling metropolis that is Ithaca for three years, where you will be taking a medium-sized plane from your parents' house to a small pray-for-life-while-landing biplane to drop back into your freezing dorm room after every break.

[bigeast03]

This may cause a riot, but in my view, if x% of a law school is landing the biglaw jobs, YOUR chances of landing a biglaw job aren't x%. It's not like you're just rolling dice here. If you got $90k and acceptance into a higher ranked school, you're more likely than the average to do well, and get the job you want. That's why they gave you a scholarship.

This seems like horrible advice. The scholarship is given because you raise/maintain the schools medians. LSAT score/GPA is only weakly correlated to law school performance, and the numbers at Cornell and USC are close enough to make this almost negligible. While you are right, BigLaw placement percentages for the school do not necessarily equate to your odds of getting a BigLaw job, it certainly doesn't make sense to assume that you'll do substantially, or even at all, better at a school ranked 3 spots lower.

[Stupendous_Man]

This may cause a riot, but in my view, if x% of a law school is landing the biglaw jobs, YOUR chances of landing a biglaw job aren't x%. It's not like you're just rolling dice here. If you got $90k and acceptance into a higher ranked school, you're more likely than the average to do well, and get the job you want. That's why they gave you a scholarship.

This seems like horrible advice. The scholarship is given because you raise/maintain the schools medians. LSAT score/GPA is only weakly correlated to law school performance, and the numbers at Cornell and USC are close enough to make this almost negligible. While you are right, BigLaw placement percentages for the school do not necessarily equate to your odds of getting a BigLaw job, it certainly doesn't make sense to assume that you'll do substantially, or even at all, better at a school ranked 3 spots lower.

edited to remove unintended b*tchiness: I don't think we're really in disagreement about anything.

[bk1]

This may cause a riot, but in my view, if x% of a law school is landing the biglaw jobs, YOUR chances of landing a biglaw job aren't x%. It's not like you're just rolling dice here. If you got $90k and acceptance into a higher ranked school, you're more likely than the average to do well, and get the job you want. That's why they gave you a scholarship.

The problem with this is that GPA/LSAT only account for 20% of law school grades, the variation in LSAT scores (this is why LSAC reports bands), the variation in undergrad GPA's which LS admissions does not account for, the variation in work experience/interviewingskills among the class, people who don't retake but could have scored higher, the fact that GPA variations of 0.1 can mean huge fluctuations in scholarship money due to medians, etc, etc. While it is true that any given person's chances aren't necessarily X%, they are close enough to X% that it is foolish to assume that it is higher in any significant way.

[Stupendous_Man]

That's fine. All I'm saying is, choose 'SC and don't stress over the small difference in employment % for salaries over $90k or whatever the OP was concerned about. The difference in her/his personal job prospects from each of these schools are, in my opinion, based on anecdotal personal observations, probably even smaller than any difference there is between the schools' stats. That, in the face of $90k? No brainer. All I'm saying.

Leave it to TLS to parse out every little phrase. What are you, a bunch of lawyers?

[bk1]

That's fine. All I'm saying is, choose 'SC and don't stress over the small difference in employment % for salaries over $90k or whatever the OP was concerned about. The difference in her/his personal job prospects from each of these schools are, in my opinion, based on anecdotal personal observations, probably even smaller than any difference there is between the schools' stats. That, in the face of $90k? No brainer. All I'm saying.

You think that's true?

While I imagine that it is quite possibly true in regards to CA biglaw, OP seems to be obsessed with making a 6 figure salary ("I am 100% not okay with making less than 90k."). In that area I would imagine that Cornell has a significant edge over USC.

[ocuviper]

You guys are really great. Thank you to everyone who put in their $.02