Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

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dkang
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Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby dkang » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:43 pm

Which one do you guys think its the smarter choice for someone looking to go into private practice, mid-sizeish law?

Attend a better school such as Emory, UVA (I'd have to try to ED in) or go to a school like UNC or Ohio State where my GPA is above average and LSAT is at the median?

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:47 pm

Don't assume that going to a lower ranked school will allow you to be ranked higher

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splitbrain
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby splitbrain » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:48 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:Don't assume that going to a lower ranked school will allow you to be ranked higher

Or vice versa.

Compare median at both for a better analysis.

Also, in your case, I'd consider debt a big factor.

t14fanboy
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby t14fanboy » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:48 pm

From what I have gathered, your assumption that you will do better at a lesser ranked school is invalid. Go to the best school you can, barring significant aid.

dkang
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby dkang » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:52 pm

t14fanboy wrote:From what I have gathered, your assumption that you will do better at a lesser ranked school is invalid. Go to the best school you can, barring significant aid.



Well going to a higher ranked school will most likely mean I'll incur greater debt.

As for my assumption, its not set in stone but its a reasonable thought or else we wouldn't have a LSAT test

flcath
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby flcath » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:55 pm

dkang wrote:
t14fanboy wrote:From what I have gathered, your assumption that you will do better at a lesser ranked school is invalid. Go to the best school you can, barring significant aid.



Well going to a higher ranked school will most likely mean I'll incur greater debt.

As for my assumption, its not set in stone but its a reasonable thought or else we wouldn't have a LSAT test

Of course it's reasonable; what they really mean is that it's unmeasurable.

Yes, the LSAT is a good (great, actually, relative to other standardized tests) predictor of 1L performance, but it's not like the r^2 = 1 or anything.

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splitbrain
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby splitbrain » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:41 pm

This thread is too vague and hypothetical. I'm guessing you're talking about applying and then choosing next cycle? Apply to all of these, don't bother with the ED to UVA, and come back when you've got offers to compare.

ETA: And consider retaking.

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thexfactor
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby thexfactor » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:55 am

You are almost guaranteed in at UVA if you ED with a 163 + 3.9 ( check http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com). I would retake. IF you don't get anything higher than a 166, I would do the UVA ED.

I would rather go to UVA vs UNC or Emory. UVA might be slightly harder than Emory, however, the correlation between lsat/gpa is more like .3. So there is a slight correlation. However, in order to get biglaw from UNC or Emory you likely have to be in the top 15-20% of your class vs median at UVA. Is UNC or Emory 2x harder than UVA, I would have a hard time believing that.... There is also a tremendous amount of luck involved in law school exams. 1 bad grade can take you down a lot.

Emory + UNC both place around 10-15% of their class in NLJ250 firms. UVA places roughly 35-40%. I find it hard to believe that UVA is 3x as hard as Emory or UNC. Please keep in mind that there aren't a lot of midlaw firms that pay a decent salary. In fact, most of these midlaw firms are just as hard to get into as biglaw. NLJ250 placement numbers is a good barometer of a school's career prospects ( outside of HYS).

IMO UVA would be the right choice here.

I'm a transfer student and I went to a T2 school and now I am at a T20. I can say that the T20 is only slightly harder than the T2 i went to. The people at the top 20% of my class at the T2 school is basically just as smart as the people in the top 20% at my T20 school.

I think the biggest difference is the people that are below median. My T2 school had a lot more slackers as compared to my T20 school.
Last edited by thexfactor on Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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padawanphil
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby padawanphil » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:32 pm

Retake and ED to UVA

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:11 pm

I have don't know anyone at my T1 that had above our 75% LSAT (166) who is not above median. I think you absolutely will finish higher in the class at a school with (overall) less talent, proven work ethic, academic horsepower, etc. (proven work ethic is definitely the biggest mover here)

Not sure why TLS groupthink goes to the contrary. I mean I agree law school exams are often arbitrary, but they are arbitrary within a vacuum of your direct competition. You would certainly expect to finish higher in the class at Santa Clara than Stanford, right?

HeavenWood
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:05 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I have don't know anyone at my T1 that had above our 75% LSAT (166) who is not above median. I think you absolutely will finish higher in the class at a school with (overall) less talent, proven work ethic, academic horsepower, etc. (proven work ethic is definitely the biggest mover here)

Not sure why TLS groupthink goes to the contrary. I mean I agree law school exams are often arbitrary, but they are arbitrary within a vacuum of your direct competition. You would certainly expect to finish higher in the class at Santa Clara than Stanford, right?

Yes, but because there isn't a bright-line correlation between LSAT score and law school performance, going to a lower-ranked school purely on that basis is incredibly risky. Besides, you have to do a lot better than merely "above median" at a T1 to have truly solid job prospects. If we assume that median at a given T14 is equivalent to top quarter at a given T30, I would much rather be at the T14 regardless of my LSAT score.

tl;dr there's very little margin of error at schools like Santa Clara. At schools like Stanford, it's tough to fail.

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sunynp
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby sunynp » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:12 pm

I think you are trying to game the system too much. You should go to the best school you can and the concern should be paying for it. The correlation is not perfect and you will be putting a lot of pressure on yourself. At a T1 most people still need a high paying job to repay their debt. Unless you have a great scholarship, a T1 costs as much as a T14 school.

I agree that median is not enough to get you the job you want from a T1. I think it is possible that the people who have been through OCI have a better appreciation of the job market. I don't think that median at a T1 is cutting it, but I am happy to be shown to be mistaken in that belief.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:19 pm

My T1 is half the price of a T14 with no scholarship.

The point is though that it is never that simple: if you get into a T14, you can are likely able to go to a T1 for very cheap. The equation has to factor in the 100k or more difference, along with the better chance of finishing higher in the class.

If you were filthy rich and it was only about job prospects, of course going to a T14 would be your best bet. You pay real $$$ to have employers go deeper down the class though.

HeavenWood
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:27 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:My T1 is half the price of a T14 with no scholarship.

The point is though that it is never that simple: if you get into a T14, you can are likely able to go to a T1 for very cheap. The equation has to factor in the 100k or more difference, along with the better chance of finishing higher in the class.

If you were filthy rich and it was only about job prospects, of course going to a T14 would be your best bet. You pay real $$$ to have employers go deeper down the class though.

If you really did pass a T14 at sticker on the basis of having a "better chance of finishing higher in the class" you're fucking dumb (and it isn't like the $100k you're paying isn't "real $$$" either). I know people with Levys who are bottom third. I know people who snuck in off the waitlist who are top quarter. What class rank do you need at your T1 to have solid job prospects (ie, equivalent to median at a lower T14).

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:32 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:My T1 is half the price of a T14 with no scholarship.

The point is though that it is never that simple: if you get into a T14, you can are likely able to go to a T1 for very cheap. The equation has to factor in the 100k or more difference, along with the better chance of finishing higher in the class.

If you were filthy rich and it was only about job prospects, of course going to a T14 would be your best bet. You pay real $$$ to have employers go deeper down the class though.

If you really did pass a T14 at sticker on the basis of having a "better chance of finishing higher in the class" you're fucking dumb (and it isn't like the $100k you're paying isn't "real $$$" either). I know people with Levys who are bottom third. I know people who snuck in off the waitlist who are top quarter. What class rank do you need at your T1 to have solid job prospects (ie, equivalent to median at a lower T14).


No idea. Top 10 or 15 percent? I see what you are saying, but the decision wouldn't be only because of a "better chance of finishing higher in the class." It would also be made to save tons of real money.

I get that your Levy friend didn't do well, but my point is that he would have done better at my school than his/hers. Some people suck at law school, but they will suck less at a T1 than at a T14. You cannot predict where you are going to be in the class at any given law school, but it is a safe prediction that you will do better at Santa Clara than Stanford. That, plus the tons of money thing, is my point.

HeavenWood
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:40 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:My T1 is half the price of a T14 with no scholarship.

The point is though that it is never that simple: if you get into a T14, you can are likely able to go to a T1 for very cheap. The equation has to factor in the 100k or more difference, along with the better chance of finishing higher in the class.

If you were filthy rich and it was only about job prospects, of course going to a T14 would be your best bet. You pay real $$$ to have employers go deeper down the class though.

If you really did pass a T14 at sticker on the basis of having a "better chance of finishing higher in the class" you're fucking dumb (and it isn't like the $100k you're paying isn't "real $$$" either). I know people with Levys who are bottom third. I know people who snuck in off the waitlist who are top quarter. What class rank do you need at your T1 to have solid job prospects (ie, equivalent to median at a lower T14).


No idea. Top 10 or 15 percent? I see what you are saying, but the decision wouldn't be only because of a "better chance of finishing higher in the class." It would also be made to save tons of real money.

I get that your Levy friend didn't do well, but my point is that he would have done better at my school than his/hers. Some people suck at law school, but they will suck less at a T1 than at a T14. You cannot predict where you are going to be in the class at any given law school, but it is a safe prediction that you will do better at Santa Clara than Stanford. That, plus the tons of money thing, is my point.

But at your school, he probably wouldn't have done that much better is my point. He was still able to get a good summer job here. That probably wouldn't have been the case if he had finished, say, median at Colorado.

I can promise you that barring an LSAT score hideously below the median (as opposed to the more typical 3-5 points you'll see among the "lower" admitted students) landing median at a T14 is much easier than the top 10-15% at your school. Thanks for playing.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:34 pm

Ok so you just agreed with me that he would do better in the class, made an unsubstantiated speculation about how much better, completely ignored the other half of my argument, then, and here it is hard to tell, got an erection from thinking about yourself?

HeavenWood
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:39 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Ok so you just agreed with me that he would do better in the class

Not better enough to make a difference.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:made an unsubstantiated speculation about how much better

As opposed to your unsubstantiated speculation?

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:completely ignored the other half of my argument

The part advocating people with lower LSAT scores attend Santa Clara over Stanford?

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:then, and here it is hard to tell, got an erection from thinking about yourself?

Actually, I was thinking about your mom, but good catch all the same.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:12 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:completely ignored the other half of my argument

The part advocating people with lower LSAT scores attend Santa Clara over Stanford?


No, I literally never said anything resembling that. I was referring to the part where OP could save money. You know, by not going to a higher ranked school.

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kalvano
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby kalvano » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:16 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I have don't know anyone at my T1 that had above our 75% LSAT (166) who is not above median.



Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Well this is mind-numblingly meaningless. Maybe you don't know a statistically significant number of law students?

ahnhub
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby ahnhub » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:21 pm

I remember seeing some law professor put out a chart about predicted 1L outcomes from LSAT scores, and it took a lot of LSAT disparity to create a meaningful correlation-- 10+ points before you saw significant difference. So to feel confident that your LSAT score gives you a meaningful advantage, you'd be talking about putting a Columbia admit into Hofstra or New York Law School, which obviously almost never happens.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:58 pm

kalvano wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I have don't know anyone at my T1 that had above our 75% LSAT (166) who is not above median.



Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Well this is mind-numblingly meaningless. Maybe you don't know a statistically significant number of law students?


Is this from another thread? Haha I'm sorry I upset you that much man, no hard feelings. But yeah that is just my unsubstantiated opinion vs. another unsubstantiated oppinion, where there is zero data. I mean there is LSAT correlation, but then you've got GPAs and softs. The average Harvard dooder is going to be so much more driven than your average CU dooder... All we have are guesses.

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NinerFan
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Re: Attend a better school and risk getting ranked lower?

Postby NinerFan » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:29 pm

Good thing the title hypothesis is wrong, or I'd be bottom 25% instead of somewhere in the top 50%.




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