I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

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nini11
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I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:38 pm

I have been accepted to Northwestern in Chicago, William and Mary(with 8000 scholarship), Maryland, Florida State University, University of Miami and Hofstra (40000 scholarship, plus I live 5mn from there so I would not dorm).

My dream was to attend a high ranked school such as Northwestern, but I didn't get the package yet, so so far, I assume that I have no scholarship for it, so I will have to borrow the whole tuition 50k plus room and Board like 20k a year. :(
I intend to work in business/corporate law or international law. I don't have any lawyers in my family so i will be starting from the start if you know what I mean. I already have loans for undergrad, so I really don't know what to do, considering that seat deposits are due soon, HELP PLEASE!!!! I don't know what to decide!
Last edited by nini11 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PARTY
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby PARTY » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:39 pm

try "Choosing a Law School."

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:40 pm

That is what i am trying to do, that is why i am asking for advice

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PARTY
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby PARTY » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:41 pm

*facepalm*

it's in the wrong forum.

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bk1
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:42 pm

stephaniecoirin wrote:That is what i am trying to do, that is why i am asking for advice


He means the subforum called that. However, I have moved this thread to that forum for you.

t14fanboy
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby t14fanboy » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:43 pm

Retake (only if your gpa warrants it), go to NU, or don't go. The other options you mention will saddle you with debt and not very good opportunities.

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bk1
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:47 pm

First thing is that international law is largely a myth so we'll toss that out. If you truly want to do corporate law, the vast majority of that work is done at large law firms ("biglaw"). Northwestern, like other T14 schools, places a large percentage of their class into biglaw. If you really want biglaw you shouldn't go to less than a T14. However, that doesn't mean it isn't risky. Around 60%ish of the class at Northwestern gets biglaw and the corresponding 6 figure salary that comes with it. The people who don't and also don't find a job that qualifies for PSLF/IBR/LRAP are going to be drowning under a mountain of debt. So there is a very real chance that even at a T14 like NU you will be screwed. That being said you have a great shot at biglaw from NU (more likely than not even). So basically it's a gamble that's going to cost you 250k+ (that's the amount of debt you will have at graduation if you take out all loans for NU once you factor in interest). I decided to take that gamble and am fine with it. But that doesn't mean it's a risk everyone is comfortable with even though it's a risk that lines up with your goals. Those others schools do not line up with your goals and seem like bad financial decisions for the most part.

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:55 pm

I had a feeling that I was going to get that answer. I am just scared for the loans, and Hofstra is basically paying for 95 percent of the tuition which means that i would not take any more loans. Another factor is that I don't know where i want to work (Florida is tempting) and i heard it is best to study where you want to practice...

flcath
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby flcath » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:03 pm

Northwestern.

I guess Hofstra wouldn't be a disaster if you can graduate debt free. I'd give *you* (i.e., not the average Hofstra student) probably a 15% chance of getting biglaw out of it.

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:06 pm

Oh and thank you Party, sorry I misunderstood what you said, I just made my account so I'm in the learning process of it all

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bk1
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:08 pm

stephaniecoirin wrote:I had a feeling that I was going to get that answer. I am just scared for the loans, and Hofstra is basically paying for 95 percent of the tuition which means that i would not take any more loans. Another factor is that I don't know where i want to work (Florida is tempting) and i heard it is best to study where you want to practice...


Are you from or do you have ties to Florida? If not it'll be hard to get work there. That rings true for most other places (exceptions such as DC/NYC do exist). Furthermore, very little corporate work is done in FL. Most of it is done in NYC. If you do take a T14 at sticker you should be willing to work in NYC since that will be the easiest place for you to get a 6 figure job that can pay back that kind of debt. You're right that it's best to study where you want to practice for the most part, but if you want corporate work that's not so important (since it's mostly in NYC and NYC doesn't care like places like FL care).

Hofstra is still risky even on a full ride. First, you will almost assuredly not end up doing corporate work (since you'll need to be at the tippy top of the Hofstra class to even have a shot at it). Second, if there are stipulations on your scholarship you would likely have a significant chance of losing it. Third, you'll likely still take out loans for cost of living and that will add up. And finally you have a real chance of not getting a full time job as a lawyer out of Hofstra. Less than 60% of their 2009 class got full time jobs that required a JD. Basically your chance of not paying off your loans at NU is roughly the same as your chance of not being a lawyer out of Hofstra.

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:01 am

bk1 wrote:
stephaniecoirin wrote:I had a feeling that I was going to get that answer. I am just scared for the loans, and Hofstra is basically paying for 95 percent of the tuition which means that i would not take any more loans. Another factor is that I don't know where i want to work (Florida is tempting) and i heard it is best to study where you want to practice...


Are you from or do you have ties to Florida? If not it'll be hard to get work there. That rings true for most other places (exceptions such as DC/NYC do exist). Furthermore, very little corporate work is done in FL. Most of it is done in NYC. If you do take a T14 at sticker you should be willing to work in NYC since that will be the easiest place for you to get a 6 figure job that can pay back that kind of debt. You're right that it's best to study where you want to practice for the most part, but if you want corporate work that's not so important (since it's mostly in NYC and NYC doesn't care like places like FL care).

Hofstra is still risky even on a full ride. First, you will almost assuredly not end up doing corporate work (since you'll need to be at the tippy top of the Hofstra class to even have a shot at it). Second, if there are stipulations on your scholarship you would likely have a significant chance of losing it. Third, you'll likely still take out loans for cost of living and that will add up. And finally you have a real chance of not getting a full time job as a lawyer out of Hofstra. Less than 60% of their 2009 class got full time jobs that required a JD. Basically your chance of not paying off your loans at NU is roughly the same as your chance of not being a lawyer out of Hofstra.


My sister and uncle live in Florida, that is all. They know a couple of lawyers and such but no direct contact really.

There are stipulations with the scholarship indeed, i have to be in top 40 percent which i think is not that bad since that would be my goal regardless. I was looking at those percentages of job finding that you mentioned on the us news website and your right.... there is that big factor too to consider...
your last sentence scare me i have to say, because if i can't pay the loans I will be in BIG TROUBLE!

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:03 am

PS: besides corporate, i have a deep interest in intellectual property as well as sports and entertainment law :)

blase33
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby blase33 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:12 am

Are you interested in SoCal? If you are trying to get IP or sports and entertainment law, wait a cycle and reapply to Boalt and USC/UCLA

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:23 am

i applied there, still waiting for an answer. California is REEEAALLY FAR from NY, (Where i am now), and from Florida, (where i dream of being one day), but if its goo for IP then i am willing to make the sacrifice

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spleenworship
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby spleenworship » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:29 am

stephaniecoirin wrote:

There are stipulations with the scholarship indeed, i have to be in top 40 percent which i think is not that bad since that would be my goal regardless.


Two things:

1) You are aware that law school is graded on a forced curve, right? So you only have a 40% chance of getting into the top 40%. Risky, IMO.

2) Your grammar is... weak. You sure you really got into NU? If you did, personally, I would go there.

Oh, and if you are in NY why aren't you going to Fordham with a big scholarship? Did you not apply? And if you wanted Florida, why didn't you apply to UF?

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Spleenworship,

I am aware of the curve and of the possibilities of being in the 40 percent, that still does not imply that I don't have the capacity to be in the "40 percent", it's not aliens who do it, it's human beings like you and me. I took a couple of honor classes in college that were graded on a forced curve and still managed to be in the top 1 percent of the class; I will be graduating with a 3.9 GPA.
I did apply to Fordham, still no answer, same for UF. I love Florida, but like I said, studying elsewhere does not bother me, it's all about getting the best education and job prospects that I can get.

Grammar can be weak after two weeks of sleeping for 4 hours and doing this instead of going to bed (and typing on an ipad) ....but as you can guess, one weak night of grammar can't reflect on 4 years of nearly perfect grades...So if you think my so poor grammar has anything to do with you getting into NU for some reason well go ahead and apply, good luck!

Yes I did get into NU, and all the schools I listed, I don't see why I would be wasting my time asking for advice for something that did not happen...

envisciguy
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby envisciguy » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:56 pm

Did you get any scholarship from FSU or Miami? If not, could you try to negotiate using your other offer? If it's your dream to work/live in FL, neither is a bad option although Northwestern would be hard to turn down if you have any interest in going out of FL.

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bk1
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby bk1 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:06 pm

stephaniecoirin wrote:I am aware of the curve and of the possibilities of being in the 40 percent, that still does not imply that I don't have the capacity to be in the "40 percent", it's not aliens who do it, it's human beings like you and me. I took a couple of honor classes in college that were graded on a forced curve and still managed to be in the top 1 percent of the class; I will be graduating with a 3.9 GPA.
I did apply to Fordham, still no answer, same for UF. I love Florida, but like I said, studying elsewhere does not bother me, it's all about getting the best education and job prospects that I can get.


Law school exams are often dissimilar from other types of classes. Furthermore, LSAT and GPA combined only account for around 20% of your law school grades. Is your chance of ending up in the top 40% better than 40%? Probably, considering you likely have better GPA/LSAT but it's not better enough to give you more than a coinflip's chance of retaining your scholarship. You've proved yourself in other academic contexts, but you haven't proved yourself at law school exams. It's risky in the sense that you have a very real chance of losing your scholarship and paying sticker.

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:31 pm

bk1 wrote:
stephaniecoirin wrote:I am aware of the curve and of the possibilities of being in the 40 percent, that still does not imply that I don't have the capacity to be in the "40 percent", it's not aliens who do it, it's human beings like you and me. I took a couple of honor classes in college that were graded on a forced curve and still managed to be in the top 1 percent of the class; I will be graduating with a 3.9 GPA.
I did apply to Fordham, still no answer, same for UF. I love Florida, but like I said, studying elsewhere does not bother me, it's all about getting the best education and job prospects that I can get.


Law school exams are often dissimilar from other types of classes. Furthermore, LSAT and GPA combined only account for around 20% of your law school grades. Is your chance of ending up in the top 40% better than 40%? Probably, considering you likely have better GPA/LSAT but it's not better enough to give you more than a coinflip's chance of retaining your scholarship. You've proved yourself in other academic contexts, but you haven't proved yourself at law school exams. It's risky in the sense that you have a very real chance of losing your scholarship and paying sticker.


I see what you mean. So since I have a high risk of loosing the scholarship, just go to Northwestern? What about Will and Mary?

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StarLightSpectre
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby StarLightSpectre » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:03 pm

nini11 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
stephaniecoirin wrote:I am aware of the curve and of the possibilities of being in the 40 percent, that still does not imply that I don't have the capacity to be in the "40 percent", it's not aliens who do it, it's human beings like you and me. I took a couple of honor classes in college that were graded on a forced curve and still managed to be in the top 1 percent of the class; I will be graduating with a 3.9 GPA.
I did apply to Fordham, still no answer, same for UF. I love Florida, but like I said, studying elsewhere does not bother me, it's all about getting the best education and job prospects that I can get.


Law school exams are often dissimilar from other types of classes. Furthermore, LSAT and GPA combined only account for around 20% of your law school grades. Is your chance of ending up in the top 40% better than 40%? Probably, considering you likely have better GPA/LSAT but it's not better enough to give you more than a coinflip's chance of retaining your scholarship. You've proved yourself in other academic contexts, but you haven't proved yourself at law school exams. It's risky in the sense that you have a very real chance of losing your scholarship and paying sticker.


I see what you mean. So since I have a high risk of loosing the scholarship, just go to Northwestern? What about Will and Mary?




I don't think going to W&M raises the benefits or lowers the risks enough. Not to mention you lose the ability to place nationally that you had with Northwestern.

No matter what though, it's up to you to gauge what your willing to risk.

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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby spleenworship » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:49 pm

nini11 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
stephaniecoirin wrote:I am aware of the curve and of the possibilities of being in the 40 percent, that still does not imply that I don't have the capacity to be in the "40 percent", it's not aliens who do it, it's human beings like you and me. I took a couple of honor classes in college that were graded on a forced curve and still managed to be in the top 1 percent of the class; I will be graduating with a 3.9 GPA.
I did apply to Fordham, still no answer, same for UF. I love Florida, but like I said, studying elsewhere does not bother me, it's all about getting the best education and job prospects that I can get.


Law school exams are often dissimilar from other types of classes. Furthermore, LSAT and GPA combined only account for around 20% of your law school grades. Is your chance of ending up in the top 40% better than 40%? Probably, considering you likely have better GPA/LSAT but it's not better enough to give you more than a coinflip's chance of retaining your scholarship. You've proved yourself in other academic contexts, but you haven't proved yourself at law school exams. It's risky in the sense that you have a very real chance of losing your scholarship and paying sticker.


I see what you mean. So since I have a high risk of loosing the scholarship, just go to Northwestern? What about Will and Mary?


This decision is probably more nuanced than that. Now, personally, this is how I would think about it:

You want Biglaw. At least, that is the best shot at the kind of job you want.

Northwestern places about 60% of their grads in biglaw, which is pretty sweet (apologies if my numbers are off by a little, but probably not much.... but I'll admit it has been a little while since I cared about Northwestern's biglaw placement). Hofstra places about 15% as mentioned before in the thread.

You want to minimize debt.

Northwestern will cost you approximately $200,000.
Hofstra will cost you between $20,000-$100,000. That variability just depends on whether you keep your scholarship. You should probably assume you will lose your scholarship after the first year, just as a worst case scenario, so call it $100,000.

So your decision-

$100,000 for a 15% chance at biglaw?

or...

$200,000 for a 60% chance at biglaw?

Only you can decide. But I have found breaking it down like that sometimes help people make decisions.

This also assumes you don't get into Fordham with a 50% of tuition scholarship or better with stipulations of median (or even no stips). If you get Fordham with that, you might seriously want to consider it. Just start a new thread with a poll or something.

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dingbat
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby dingbat » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:04 pm

Fordham doesn't have stips. If you get in and get a decent scholly, take it.
Otherwise the two calculations above are tops

nini11
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby nini11 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:49 pm

Thank you very much for the comments. It helped me have a different perspective of things. I will have to make a decision sometime next week. When I make up my mind, I will let you guys know :D

I like the neat breakdown Spleenworship gave me because it makes it direct and clear. If you have any additional comments feel free to post :)

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bk1
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Re: I Need HELP TO DECIDE WHERE TO GO!!!

Postby bk1 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:39 pm

I generally agree with spleen's analysis. The problem you face is that, with your numbers, your goals are mutually exclusive. So you have to pick what's most important to you:

1. Doing corporate work.
2. Minimizing debt.
3. Working in FL (or some other non-NYC/DC area).

If 1 is most important to you then go to NU, but it's still a risk (also spleen's numbers are off, sticker price debt at NU is 250k once you factor in interest). If 2 is most important to you then it's tough. Maybe Hofstra, but as pointed out there's a serious chance you don't end up as a lawyer. You could try Hofstra and then drop out if you lose your scholarship. If 3 is most important to you then go to a school in FL (or whatever region you prefer) like UF/FSU, but ideally keep your debt under 6 figures.

You can't both minimize your debt and have a good shot at corporate work (because you don't have large scholarships to T14 schools). You can't work in FL and have a good shot at corporate work (since very little of it is done in FL). Ideally you should be able to combine 2 and 3 if you can get a decent amount of money at FSU or equivalent school. It's up to you what's most important, we can't really tell you which is most important since it varies from person to person.




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