Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

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john1990
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby john1990 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:50 pm

MrAnon wrote:
john1990 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
john1990 wrote:That's expected since the economy has always improved with time, barring occasional recessions. If you look at 2008 you'l see that Dozo still reports 15% more of the classes salaries. The point is that Dozo>Brooklyn. Also, Brooklyn clearly offers 0% chance at biglaw

The legal economy is NOT going back to unsustainable bubble hiring by the time you apply for a biglawl jerb (OCI 2013).


I agree, but brooklyn is still no good for biglaw, dozo has shown that it can be, and we don't have any stats which say that it isn't any longer placing in the NLJ 250

Here's dozo for 2010

http://cardozo.yu.edu/MemberContentDisp ... ntid=20254

they report 30% placement into firms of 500 employees or more and among this 30% an average salary of 155,000

These grads would have had their OCI in fall of 2008


That's 14% of the graduating class if I calculate it correctly. 86% of the graduating did not make that.


Do you think that the 51% who did not go into private practice did so because they were at the bottom of the class or could not get into private practice?

MrAnon
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby MrAnon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:53 pm

john1990 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Look dude, knowing half a dozen people or so at each of these schools, they are roughly indistinguishable, and no more than a dozen or so people per class are getting biglaw these days at either of them. Cardozo seems to have bigger aspirations about being a part of the corporate legal community but is still nowhere near the playing field, while Brooklyn seems to have fewer delusions of grandeur but a bit more of an established reputation among NYC personal injury shops and such. Functionally they are on the same plane.

Edit: You're also wrong to say that Brooklyn has 0% biglaw placement, there are at least a couple of BLS alums in just about every major biglaw office in NYC, even recent alums. It sounds to me like you are seeing the world through Cardozo-colored glasses. Nobody here is out to ruin your day, but you should really stop and take a hard look at what you're signing up for.


I'm basing this on stats from the following thread

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

If you scroll down you will see that they have brooklyn law at 0% for the NLJ 250

This thread has been stickied here for a long time and i have come to trust it.

Your comments prompted me to search more and i found this

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/tag/nlj-250/

That is for the class of 2011. Yeshiva is at 11.8% and Brooklyn at 6.59%
This is during the peak of the recession


The point is you are splitting hairs. Its a couple grads whichever way the wind blows any given year. Anyway the stat you should be looking at is 89% at Cardozo are not getting NLJ250 and 94% at Brooklyn.

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top30man
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby top30man » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:57 pm

MrAnon wrote:
john1990 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Look dude, knowing half a dozen people or so at each of these schools, they are roughly indistinguishable, and no more than a dozen or so people per class are getting biglaw these days at either of them. Cardozo seems to have bigger aspirations about being a part of the corporate legal community but is still nowhere near the playing field, while Brooklyn seems to have fewer delusions of grandeur but a bit more of an established reputation among NYC personal injury shops and such. Functionally they are on the same plane.

Edit: You're also wrong to say that Brooklyn has 0% biglaw placement, there are at least a couple of BLS alums in just about every major biglaw office in NYC, even recent alums. It sounds to me like you are seeing the world through Cardozo-colored glasses. Nobody here is out to ruin your day, but you should really stop and take a hard look at what you're signing up for.


I'm basing this on stats from the following thread

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

If you scroll down you will see that they have brooklyn law at 0% for the NLJ 250

This thread has been stickied here for a long time and i have come to trust it.

Your comments prompted me to search more and i found this

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/tag/nlj-250/

That is for the class of 2011. Yeshiva is at 11.8% and Brooklyn at 6.59%
This is during the peak of the recession


The point is you are splitting hairs. Its a couple grads whichever way the wind blows any given year. Anyway the stat you should be looking at is 89% at Cardozo are not getting NLJ250 and 94% at Brooklyn.

That's exactly how you should look at it. It is extremely unlikely that people at these schools self-selected out of private practice, of I understand what you said earlier.

MrAnon
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby MrAnon » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:04 am

Beyond that, find biglaw partners in NYC and ask them about these schools. I worked at a biglaw firm and didn't see a summer associate from either school the entire time I was there. I heard that some years in the past there was a representative from Brooklyn or Cardozo, but I never saw any across three years. And these were decent size classes of a dozen students per summer. I think our firm interviewed at both but I have no idea what happened.

BobbyDylan
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby BobbyDylan » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:34 am

John 1990 is, per another thread, in the process of negotiating a bigger scholarship from Dozo. It's clear that he wants to go there, and so he's being defensive about Dozo, especially vis a vis Brooklyn because, I'm sure, he's convinced himself that Dozo is a more prestigious place to go.

And, (not that John 1990 needs me or anyone else to say it), that's totally normal and fine, and, well...whatever. Everyone who ends up at law school convinces themselves that their choice was a good one, otherwise they wouldn't go. I go to a WUSTL/MN/IL, and I did so for own reasons, but I seriously considered a free ride+ from Brooklyn and a huge scholly from Dozo. So I've run through this hypo in my head in earnest.

My advice to anyone considering either Dozo or Brooklyn at anything more than $75K in total debt is to apply to Rutgers. Do it now, if it's not too late. If you can get a $20K/yr Scholly from Brooklyn, you can get a $5K/yr from Rutgers, plus you'll get instate tuition for all three years if you sign a lease in NJ. I know that this arrangement isn't ideal for OP in particular because he/she can live with parents, but do the math:

Dozo: $48K/yr
Brooklyn: $48K/yr
Rutgers-N: $25K/yr (instate).

So, effectively, by going to Rutgers, you are automatically giving yourself a $23K/yr scholarship, plus the living expenses in NJ will be probably 2/3 what they would be in NYC. For OP, assuming you get a $5K/yr scholly from R-N, you'd be able to A) have the same-to-slightly better job prospects (albeit in NJ), B) get to live on your own for three years, and C) avoid a horrendous commute (that will likely run you, what? $120 a month going from Yonkers to Manhattan?).

If you don't have parents to live with, and will have to take out living loans, the choice is, frankly, obvious: roughly $170K for Dozo, or $100K for Rutgers? I'm not saying either (at that cost) is a good choice, but one is a hell of a lot better than the other.

I know NJ gets a bum rap, and mostly for legitimate reasons, but when I see person getting conned into paying sometimes 2x the money to go to Brooklyn and, increasingly, Dozo and not even considering Rutgers, I see a person who hasn't really thought about the decision hard enough, and asked the tough questions. Because the only reason I can see, given the factors faced by a typical 0L, for going to Dozo/Brook over Rutgers is some sort of Ranking/Prestige/OMG NYC! thing, and that's just falling right into the trap that's being set for you.

In five years, will being able to say "I went to Cardozo-Yeshiva for law school, in New York City!" really be worth the extra $50K-$70K? Trust me, it won't be.
Last edited by BobbyDylan on Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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laxbrah420
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby laxbrah420 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:40 am

20k scholly at BK = 28k/yr plus ability to live at home vs 25k (maybe 20k w/ scholly) and 10k rent @ rutgers.

srfngdd6
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby srfngdd6 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:42 am

laxbrah420 wrote:20k scholly at BK = 28k/yr plus ability to live at home vs 25k (maybe 20k w/ scholly) and 10k rent @ rutgers.



but in the most likely outcome youll get a job making between 45-60 k....almost impossible to live on in NYC but manageable in Jersey

BobbyDylan
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby BobbyDylan » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:43 am

laxbrah420 wrote:20k scholly at BK = 28k/yr plus ability to live at home vs 25k (maybe 20k w/ scholly) and 10k rent @ rutgers.


+ a 75 minute commute both ways on the subway (just imagine that for a second. Every day. Sometimes at 10/11 PM.), plus having to live with parents for three years.

Like I said in previous post, OP is in a slightly different spot, but he/she should at least consider Rutgers. If a person doesn't have 'rents to pick up slack, then Rutgers is a no-brainer.

MrAnon
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby MrAnon » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:58 am

Its probably a mix. There is probably a number in "private practice" who make peanuts and wish they had been able to get into government. There is no set rule on how it works.

MrAnon
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby MrAnon » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:00 am

BobbyDylan wrote:John 1990 is, per another thread, in the process of negotiating a bigger scholarship from Dozo. It's clear that he wants to go there, and so he's being defensive about Dozo, especially vis a vis Brooklyn because, I'm sure, he's convinced himself that Dozo is a more prestigious place to go.

And, (not that John 1990 needs me or anyone else to say it), that's totally normal and fine, and, well...whatever. Everyone who ends up at law school convinces themselves that their choice was a good one, otherwise they wouldn't go. I go to a WUSTL/MN/IL, and I did so for own reasons, but I seriously considered a free ride+ from Brooklyn and a huge scholly from Dozo. So I've run through this hypo in my head in earnest.

My advice to anyone considering either Dozo or Brooklyn at anything more than $75K in total debt is to apply to Rutgers. Do it now, if it's not too late. If you can get a $20K/yr Scholly from Brooklyn, you can get a $5K/yr from Rutgers, plus you'll get instate tuition for all three years if you sign a lease in NJ. I know that this arrangement isn't ideal for OP in particular because he/she can live with parents, but do the math:

Dozo: $48K/yr
Brooklyn: $48K/yr
Rutgers-N: $25K/yr (instate).

So, effectively, by going to Rutgers, you are automatically giving yourself a $23K/yr scholarship, plus the living expenses in NJ will be probably 2/3 what they would be in NYC. For OP, assuming you get a $5K/yr scholly from R-N, you'd be able to A) have the same-to-slightly better job prospects (albeit in NJ), B) get to live on your own for three years, and C) avoid a horrendous commute (that will likely run you, what? $120 a month going from Yonkers to Manhattan?).

If you don't have parents to live with, and will have to take out living loans, the choice is, frankly, obvious: roughly $170K for Dozo, or $100K for Rutgers? I'm not saying either (at that cost) is a good choice, but one is a hell of a lot better than the other.

I know NJ gets a bum rap, and mostly for legitimate reasons, but when I see person getting conned into paying sometimes 2x the money to go to Brooklyn and, increasingly, Dozo and not even considering Rutgers, I see a person who hasn't really thought about the decision hard enough, and asked the tough questions. Because the only reason I can see, given the factors faced by a typical 0L, for going to Dozo/Brook over Rutgers is some sort of Ranking/Prestige/OMG NYC! thing, and that's just falling right into the trap that's being set for you.

In five years, will being able to say "I went to Cardozo-Yeshiva for law school, in New York City!" really be worth the extra $50K-$70K? Trust me, it won't be.


this is pretty accurate. unfortunately it isn't until you are in law school that you actually realize that hey, all the schools grouped T20-T40 are interchangeable, and on down the line. Brooklyn and Dozo don't provide much if any edge over Rutgers.

smeagol
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby smeagol » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:08 pm

Thank you all for the replies and the thought you put into your posts.

I went to high school and have worked the last two years with the train commute from yonkers to manhattan so its not such a big deal to me. Obviously living at home is far from ideal, but at 23 with not too much cash of my own, its something im okay with for the next three years...for the money saved and the fact that my folks just got a new place.

Im not so sure I want the biglaw life.

A better question for me to ask is: How realistic is it to walk out of Cardozo / Brooklyn in three years with a job paying about 60k+ ??

It's difficult, perhaps impossible, to say this for certain before actually starting school, but I find myself legitimately interested in studying and practicing law. Of course, that could change.

For people suggesting the building management route, I know supers and they have a nice set up, but its not the route I desire. That could be stupid of me--time will tell.

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sd5289
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby sd5289 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Why haven't you started negotiating? If they gave you an initial offer, that doesn't mean the conversation's over. I also had an initial Cardozo offer that was 50% of my BLS offer. I emailed Dozo with that (didn't even get into specifics on amounts) because I like them better, told them I'm PI-bound after having worked in the NYC PI field for years, and that I need to be realistic and follow the $$$ after turning down higher ranked schools with stingy scholarship offers. They got right back to me and doubled it putting it on the same level as BLS' offer.

P.S. I should add that if you're not going into a field that leaves you eligible for IBR, federal loan forgiveness, and the school's LRAP, then you probably don't want to go to either Cardozo or BLS. Perhaps if it's a full ride, but it's clear from your post that it's not. My impression from friends of mine in the private sector is that things are rough in that department (to put it mildly). Also, don't assume that it's easy to break into the public sector either. I can't tell you the number of "high ranked" students from "high ranked" schools that we turn down every year because they have zero skills in our world.

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flem
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby flem » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:22 pm

john1990 wrote:

That is for the class of 2011. Yeshiva is at 11.8% and Brooklyn at 6.59%
This is during the peak of the recession


Both of those show that these schools are shit for BigLaw, which is what you'd need to pay back 150K+ in loans

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rocon7383
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby rocon7383 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:05 pm

flem wrote:
john1990 wrote:

That is for the class of 2011. Yeshiva is at 11.8% and Brooklyn at 6.59%
This is during the peak of the recession


Both of those show that these schools are shit for BigLaw, which is what you'd need to pay back 150K+ in loans


TITCR. even if your debt is less than that, there are hidden costs, and once you get a job post-grad(probably not big-law, but something pay 40-50k) the debt will suck the life outta ya. I have a brother who had this problem.

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john1990
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Re: Cardozo 10K schol V Brooklyn 20K schol

Postby john1990 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:47 pm

top30man wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
john1990 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Look dude, knowing half a dozen people or so at each of these schools, they are roughly indistinguishable, and no more than a dozen or so people per class are getting biglaw these days at either of them. Cardozo seems to have bigger aspirations about being a part of the corporate legal community but is still nowhere near the playing field, while Brooklyn seems to have fewer delusions of grandeur but a bit more of an established reputation among NYC personal injury shops and such. Functionally they are on the same plane.

Edit: You're also wrong to say that Brooklyn has 0% biglaw placement, there are at least a couple of BLS alums in just about every major biglaw office in NYC, even recent alums. It sounds to me like you are seeing the world through Cardozo-colored glasses. Nobody here is out to ruin your day, but you should really stop and take a hard look at what you're signing up for.


I'm basing this on stats from the following thread

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

If you scroll down you will see that they have brooklyn law at 0% for the NLJ 250

This thread has been stickied here for a long time and i have come to trust it.

Your comments prompted me to search more and i found this

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/tag/nlj-250/

That is for the class of 2011. Yeshiva is at 11.8% and Brooklyn at 6.59%
This is during the peak of the recession


The point is you are splitting hairs. Its a couple grads whichever way the wind blows any given year. Anyway the stat you should be looking at is 89% at Cardozo are not getting NLJ250 and 94% at Brooklyn.

That's exactly how you should look at it. It is extremely unlikely that people at these schools self-selected out of private practice, of I understand what you said earlier.

I'm not trying to say that either school does particularly well in nlj250 placement, just that one does better than the other. You can't deny that 5% is a large difference, especially when the difference is consistent, and the difference is nearly 100%




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