Is DU worth it?

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Husker-6432
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Is DU worth it?

Postby Husker-6432 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:16 pm

After reading enough debt/job market horror stories today, I have been reconsidering my law school future. Initially I thought I had by schools pretty well narrowed down to Illinois and Wake Forest with a total cost of attendance being around 100k and 80k respectively, but, as I said, taking on this much debt scares the hell out of me especially with the legal market being the way it is. An offer I got early on was to DU at a total cost of about 35k. The reason why I hadn't strongly considered it initially is its (what I believe to be) relatively small legal market, the fact that I have no ties to Colorado (I am originally from Illinois), and it being ranked lower than CU. That being said, I love the city of Denver and I got a good feeling from the campus and limited interaction with staff and students. My thinking now why this may be a good choice, however, is the obvious cost difference and that my numbers are above DU's percentiles leading me to believe I have a better shot at graduating closer to the top of my class, thus helping my career prospects (my numbers are 162/3.9). If anyone has any suggestions on what I should do, I would very grateful.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:55 pm

Total COA at DU is just $35,000 for all three years ? If so, then go.

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Husker-6432
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Husker-6432 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:16 pm

I guess the biggest thing that worries me with this is job prospects. Am I I just paranoid in thinking that UIUC or WF would offer substantially better opportunities?

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Nelson
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Nelson » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:18 pm

You should retake and not waste that 3.9 on these schools.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:26 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Total COA at DU is just $35,000 for all three years ? If so, then go.



This. 35,000 is really not bad debt.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:28 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Total COA at DU is just $35,000 for all three years ? If so, then go.



This. 35,000 is really not bad debt.


However, I have heard Colorado is pretty insular so without ties it may still not be worth it. Someone from Colorado should chime in.

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Husker-6432
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Husker-6432 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:43 pm

Nelson wrote:You should retake and not waste that 3.9 on these schools.


A retake for the next cycle is pretty much out of the question for me. I have pretty much tailored my degrees (BA in Econ, Hist, and Phil) toward going to law school, so finding work for next year may prove difficult. Furthermore, a full time job would be necessary to pitch the idea to my parents, because they are helping me with my college costs and I don't see them running with this idea. Besides, I'm not sure how much I would be able to raise my test score. I was practice testing pretty consistently around 166 which I feel would translate to about an ideal, real test score of 164. If I were to score this, I'm not sure if the difference in scholarship money would be substantial enough to justify a year out of school.

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Nelson
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Nelson » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:06 pm

So you're going to go to a bad school in a market you have no ties to with no work experience? Or pay six figures for Illinois? These are bad ideas. There is no reason you can't take a year off, you don't want to. You won't be able to blame your parents in three years when you can't find legal employment.

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sunynp
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby sunynp » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:18 pm

I think you are correct to be concerned about job prospects from denver. But I don't think the other schools are worth it. Where do you want to live and practice? If you want to get really scared, read Paul campus blog. He is a professor at Colorado and he has made a few posts about the job market there. If you go to du you will be competing for those same jobs in Denver.
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

Also - you need to grow up a little bit. You understand a bit about the market but you justify going because you would have to find a job? Seriously? If your parents don't support your efforts you need to educate them. Get them to read the blog too and some of the many recent articles. I mean there is even a book coming out about the economic realities of law school.

You need to retake. You didn't study correctly, I think you can improve.

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romothesavior
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:40 am

Retake, for the love of god. That is a great GPA. Sit down with your parents. Explain to them how bad things are right now, explain to them how legal hiring works, and explain to them that you think you can get into a much better school if you bust your ass on the LSAT on a retake. Tell them you really want to go to law school and you promise you will go, but you want to maximize your job prospects and minimize your debt. Get a job... any job. Work at the local video store, wait tables, whatever. Bust your ass, and get that LSAT score up. Your entire world would turn upside down with just a few more points. How about Illinois for free? How about a shot at some T14 schools?

If you absolutely must go, I'd say Illinois. 100k isn't horrible. But a retake is the best option given your great GPA. I know of no one who regrets a year off and a retake. On the other hand, I know plenty of people who regret rushing in instead of trying for something better.

Heed these words, my fellow Illinoisan. 8) Good luck.

Sandro
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:09 am

Christ , please retake. You probably can't appreciate how much that 3.9 is worth because all you've seen if what schools it can get you in to with a 162. Unless you took the LSAT 3 times and someone is holding a gun to your head to go to law school right now, retake. There is zero reason why you can't take this summer and improve 5 points. Its not even a question really if you might - you will. I guarantee it.

lobolawyer
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby lobolawyer » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:18 am

romothesavior wrote:Retake, for the love of god. That is a great GPA. Sit down with your parents. Explain to them how bad things are right now, explain to them how legal hiring works, and explain to them that you think you can get into a much better school if you bust your ass on the LSAT on a retake. Tell them you really want to go to law school and you promise you will go, but you want to maximize your job prospects and minimize your debt. Get a job... any job. Work at the local video store, wait tables, whatever. Bust your ass, and get that LSAT score up. Your entire world would turn upside down with just a few more points. How about Illinois for free? How about a shot at some T14 schools?

If you absolutely must go, I'd say Illinois. 100k isn't horrible. But a retake is the best option given your great GPA. I know of no one who regrets a year off and a retake. On the other hand, I know plenty of people who regret rushing in instead of trying for something better.

Heed these words, my fellow Illinoisan. 8) Good luck.


I haven't posted on this site long, but I've been perusing for almost 4 years now, and this is one of the rare occasions that I disagree with Romo. DU at 35k isn't a bad choice. If you do well at DU you'll have options. And even if we're less optimistic and assume that you ended up with a job paying 40k a year or had to hang up a shingle, 35k won't be crushing (assuming that you don't have substantial debt from undergrad.). On the other hand, 100k+ of debt is scary no matter where you decide to go to law school.

I also think you're right in believing that a few more points on the LSAT will get you into better schools, but might not increase the scholly $$$ available in a down year for applicants - who knows what happens next year.

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Husker-6432
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Husker-6432 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:24 am

Well you guys are starting to convince me to do a retake. For the sake of argument, if I were to commit to a retake and score my average practice test of a 166, how much would that affect a scholarship at UIUC (this is my ideal school as of now)?

Also, is it possible to pay my seat deposits for this cycle, sit for the test in June, and in the event of an increased score retract from this cycle and hold off until the next cycle?

Sandro
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:30 am

If you are open to going anywhere it would really help you, and it seems that way because you are considering DU and Wake. A 166 3.9 gets you some pretty good money at schools around T20, iirc.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Tom Joad » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:32 am

Did you apply to UNL? I am a Nebraskan and I have some near full ride offers in the T14 and I am still considering going to UNL. It is a good school if you would be happy working in the state.

But you should probably retake if you want to go elsewhere.

Feel free to PM me if you like. :)

Sandro
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:33 am

Also re: total COA at DU - 35k in tuition ? or full tuition, 35k = COL ???

$35k is certainly cheap if thats all you are going into debt for but its certainly a different cost analysis when its more like 60-70k.

Sandro
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:34 am

Husker-6432 wrote:Well you guys are starting to convince me to do a retake. For the sake of argument, if I were to commit to a retake and score my average practice test of a 166, how much would that affect a scholarship at UIUC (this is my ideal school as of now)?

Also, is it possible to pay my seat deposits for this cycle, sit for the test in June, and in the event of an increased score retract from this cycle and hold off until the next cycle?



wait, didnt see this - 166 was your pt average?? Screams retake. It's a lot tougher pill to swallow than most people who advise to retake give it credit, but almost all of the time its the right one.

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Husker-6432
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Husker-6432 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:42 am

Sandro wrote:
Husker-6432 wrote:Well you guys are starting to convince me to do a retake. For the sake of argument, if I were to commit to a retake and score my average practice test of a 166, how much would that affect a scholarship at UIUC (this is my ideal school as of now)?

Also, is it possible to pay my seat deposits for this cycle, sit for the test in June, and in the event of an increased score retract from this cycle and hold off until the next cycle?



wait, didnt see this - 166 was your pt average?? Screams retake. It's a lot tougher pill to swallow than most people who advise to retake give it credit, but almost all of the time its the right one.


This is why I'm wondering if I can pay the deposits and then retract. In the instance I do score a 166, then I have hard evidence to justify taking a year off (even if I have to swallow the $1000 dollar deposit) which would ease my trepidation. In the other event where I receive a similar score, then I still have my seat saved for this cycle and I'm only out the test fee. I'm just trying to hedge my risk as efficiently as possible.

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Ded Precedent
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Ded Precedent » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:44 am

Sandro wrote:Also re: total COA at DU - 35k in tuition ? or full tuition, 35k = COL ???

$35k is certainly cheap if thats all you are going into debt for but its certainly a different cost analysis when its more like 60-70k.

This.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Tom Joad » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:44 am

Husker-6432 wrote:
Sandro wrote:
Husker-6432 wrote:Well you guys are starting to convince me to do a retake. For the sake of argument, if I were to commit to a retake and score my average practice test of a 166, how much would that affect a scholarship at UIUC (this is my ideal school as of now)?

Also, is it possible to pay my seat deposits for this cycle, sit for the test in June, and in the event of an increased score retract from this cycle and hold off until the next cycle?



wait, didnt see this - 166 was your pt average?? Screams retake. It's a lot tougher pill to swallow than most people who advise to retake give it credit, but almost all of the time its the right one.


This is why I'm wondering if I can pay the deposits and then retract. In the instance I do score a 166, then I have hard evidence to justify taking a year off (even if I have to swallow the $1000 dollar deposit) which would ease my trepidation. In the other event where I receive a similar score, then I still have my seat saved for this cycle and I'm only out the test fee.

I think people are encouraging you to withdraw your apps and retake in June or October with the goal of applying next cycle. If you look on LSN at the best cycles, they aren't usually for K-JDs unless they have amazing softs.

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Husker-6432
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Husker-6432 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:57 am

Ded Precedent wrote:
Sandro wrote:Also re: total COA at DU - 35k in tuition ? or full tuition, 35k = COL ???

$35k is certainly cheap if thats all you are going into debt for but its certainly a different cost analysis when its more like 60-70k.

This.


Coming out of DU I would only be 35k in the hole. My parents have agreed to pay the expenses outside of tuition and fees, which is why taking a year off is a tough sell on my end. To make a long story short, they were against the idea of law school before I started undergrad, so asking for another year is treading on some very thin ice which is why I'm reluctant to abandon what I have now. A sort of bird in the hand two in the bush problem.

lobolawyer
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby lobolawyer » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:08 am

DU is well worth 35k. Period. I think it's your best choice because it's a decent school in a great city, and I am averse to debt.

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romothesavior
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:11 am

Husker-6432 wrote:Well you guys are starting to convince me to do a retake. For the sake of argument, if I were to commit to a retake and score my average practice test of a 166, how much would that affect a scholarship at UIUC (this is my ideal school as of now)?

Also, is it possible to pay my seat deposits for this cycle, sit for the test in June, and in the event of an increased score retract from this cycle and hold off until the next cycle?

Yes, it is possible.

And I agree with you lobolawyer that DU is a decent school and 35k for a law degree from there is a steal. I'd just be worried about going to a hyper-regional school in a small market with zero ties, especially one that is dominated by a T1 like CU. Maybe I shouldn't make it sound like UIUC is such a slam dunk over DU. Maybe it's not, I guess I don't know the Colorado market well enough.

Retake is still the best option though, regardless of whether DU is better than UIUC here or vice versa.

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Husker-6432
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby Husker-6432 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:24 am

In terms of ties, I'm not sure if it makes much of difference but the ties I have to UIUC are that I lived in Illinois (central, not Chicago) for about 14 years with breaks in those years and my parents currently live there. But, I'm currently in Nebraska for undergrad and there is a strong possibility that my parents will be moving overseas within the next year thus eliminating at least one tie. The reason why I choose DU (wait-listed at CU btw) was because Denver s a city I can see myself living in (essentially the same reason for wanting to end up in Chicago as well). Just wanted to know if this would have any influence in demonstrating a tie to Denver.

HeavenWood
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Re: Is DU worth it?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:35 am

Husker-6432 wrote:
Nelson wrote:You should retake and not waste that 3.9 on these schools.


A retake for the next cycle is pretty much out of the question for me. I have pretty much tailored my degrees (BA in Econ, Hist, and Phil) toward going to law school, so finding work for next year may prove difficult. Furthermore, a full time job would be necessary to pitch the idea to my parents, because they are helping me with my college costs and I don't see them running with this idea. Besides, I'm not sure how much I would be able to raise my test score. I was practice testing pretty consistently around 166 which I feel would translate to about an ideal, real test score of 164. If I were to score this, I'm not sure if the difference in scholarship money would be substantial enough to justify a year out of school.

I beat my PT average by five points and my PT high by a point. If you were practice testing properly and can get a hold of your nerves, there's no reason you can't match your average on test day. FWIW, a 166 could very well sneak you into MVPD through the ED door. It worked for me.




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