Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:36 pm

manofjustice wrote:All of GWs school-funded jobs are "full time, long term" except one. Those jobs appear to be included in the "bar required, long term, full time" category as well. Seems fake.


GW has started its own law firm, and all those 80 graduates are founding partners! ...of Abramoff, Acer, Allen, Atticus,..............LLP

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KevinP
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby KevinP » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:39 pm

manofjustice wrote:
manofjustice wrote:All of GWs school-funded jobs are "full time, long term" except one. Those jobs appear to be included in the "bar required, long term, full time" category as well. Seems fake.


GW has started its own law firm, and all those 80 graduates are founding partners! ...of Abramoff, Acer, Allen, Atticus,..............LLP

lol! 20 more grads and they'll be working in biglaw!

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:49 pm

How does a school still think it can fake its numbers...that trick lasted a whole 53 seconds GW. Way to go...

mrjohnsterman
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby mrjohnsterman » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:57 pm

Long Term Full Time - School Funded (those with 5+)
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY - 25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF - 24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY - 19
ILLINOIS, UNIVERSITY OF - 8
MIAMI, UNIVERSITY OF - 7
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 6
Last edited by mrjohnsterman on Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:01 pm

mrjohnsterman wrote:Long Term Full Time - School Funded (those with 5+)
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY -25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF -24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY - 19
ILLINOIS, UNIVERSITY OF - 8
MIAMI, UNIVERSITY OF -7
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 6


Unbelievable. What the heck is a long term full time school funded job. Any takers?

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dingbat
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby dingbat » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:10 pm

manofjustice wrote:
mrjohnsterman wrote:Long Term Full Time - School Funded (those with 5+)
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY -25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF -24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY - 19
ILLINOIS, UNIVERSITY OF - 8
MIAMI, UNIVERSITY OF -7
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 6


Unbelievable. What the heck is a long term full time school funded job. Any takers?

Faculty?
Librarian?
Adcom?
I can't imagine any school ever having more than 10 legit long term school funded jobs in a single year.
edit: short term I can understand. What's the cut-off for long v short term?

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rayiner
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:16 pm

Something is only short-term if it has a definite term of < 1 year. So clerkships (which are a year) count. So do temporary law school-funded fellowships for unemployed students, as long as they are at least for a year.
Last edited by rayiner on Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:17 pm

mrjohnsterman wrote:Long Term Full Time - School Funded (those with 5+)
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY -25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF -24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY - 19
ILLINOIS, UNIVERSITY OF - 8
MIAMI, UNIVERSITY OF -7
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 6


Not only this, but these are the schools, of the above, which listed virtually ALL their school funded positions as long term and almost certainly included them in their long term, full time, bar required category:

GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY -25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF -24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:21 pm

rayiner wrote:Something is only short-term if it has a definite term of < 1 year. So clerkships (which are a year) count. So do temporary law school-funded fellowships for unemployed students, as long as they are at least for a year.


a) They shouldn't count as long term. These positions may offer no intrinsic career potential.

But WAY more important is b): are these positions to be reported as requiring the Bar in any meaningful, non-fraudulent way? Do they actually REQUIRE passage of the Bar in a particular state? Who requires this? And why?

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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby mrjohnsterman » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:21 pm

GW has 36 FT/LT Academic

Which leaves 44 that are likely spread out in:
39 public interest
19 state/Local clerkships

One would have to assume that for schools to do these they would all (or almost all) be JD required

manofjustice wrote:
mrjohnsterman wrote:Long Term Full Time - School Funded (those with 5+)
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY -25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF -24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY - 19
ILLINOIS, UNIVERSITY OF - 8
MIAMI, UNIVERSITY OF -7
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 6


Unbelievable. What the heck is a long term full time school funded job. Any takers?

Kurst
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby Kurst » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:22 pm

Image

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby jenesaislaw » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:23 pm

Law School Transparency's Data Clearinghouse is live for all schools for the class of 2011. --LinkRemoved--

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:29 pm

mrjohnsterman wrote:GW has 36 FT/LT Academic

Which leaves 44 that are likely spread out in:
39 public interest
19 state/Local clerkships

One would have to assume that for schools to do these they would all (or almost all) be JD required

manofjustice wrote:
mrjohnsterman wrote:Long Term Full Time - School Funded (those with 5+)
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY -25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF -24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY - 19
ILLINOIS, UNIVERSITY OF - 8
MIAMI, UNIVERSITY OF -7
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 6


Unbelievable. What the heck is a long term full time school funded job. Any takers?


So the school pays a state or local judge or a public interest organization to employ a student as a lawyer for about 1 year, and then the student is out of work?

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rayiner
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:31 pm

Kurst wrote:Image


Awesome chart dude.

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rayiner
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:31 pm

manofjustice wrote:
mrjohnsterman wrote:GW has 36 FT/LT Academic

Which leaves 44 that are likely spread out in:
39 public interest
19 state/Local clerkships

One would have to assume that for schools to do these they would all (or almost all) be JD required

manofjustice wrote:
mrjohnsterman wrote:Long Term Full Time - School Funded (those with 5+)
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY -25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF -24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY - 19
ILLINOIS, UNIVERSITY OF - 8
MIAMI, UNIVERSITY OF -7
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 6


Unbelievable. What the heck is a long term full time school funded job. Any takers?


So the school pays a state or local judge or a public interest organization to employ a student as a lawyer for about 1 year, and then the student is out of work?


Pretty much, though hopefully the student can get a PI job based on the experience and contacts.

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rayiner
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:34 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:Law School Transparency's Data Clearinghouse is live for all schools for the class of 2011. --LinkRemoved--


Awesome job guys, love this: --LinkRemoved--

However, I don't think the computation of "long-term, full-time" is done right. Some schools (*cough* NYU) count law school funded positions as long-term, full-time. Others (e.g. Penn) don't count them as long-term, full-time. NYU comes out looking great with 90%, but once you take out the unemployment fellowships, you're looking at a much more average 78%.

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:36 pm

rayiner wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY - 80
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF - 64
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY -56
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY - 38
HARVARD UNIVERSITY - 33
EMORY UNIVERSITY -25
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF -24
YALE UNIVERSITY - 22

So the school pays a state or local judge or a public interest organization to employ a student as a lawyer for about 1 year, and then the student is out of work?


Pretty much, though hopefully the student can get a PI job based on the experience and contacts.



This strains the imagination a bit much, as well as the boundary between a (realistically unpaid) intern and a "clerk" or "lawyer."

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:42 pm

rayiner wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:Law School Transparency's Data Clearinghouse is live for all schools for the class of 2011. --LinkRemoved--


Awesome job guys, love this: --LinkRemoved--

However, I don't think the computation of "long-term, full-time" is done right. Some schools (*cough* NYU) count law school funded positions as long-term, full-time. Others (e.g. Penn) don't count them as long-term, full-time. NYU comes out looking great with 90%, but once you take out the unemployment fellowships, you're looking at a much more average 78%.


I agree. It's fantastic work.

It's hard to break out this school-funded issue. The ABA format is great for catching it.

I think this is on the schools...or the ABA...for not being consistent. It seems like some of the schools may be gaming the categories once again.

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rayiner
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:46 pm

manofjustice wrote:
rayiner wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:Law School Transparency's Data Clearinghouse is live for all schools for the class of 2011. --LinkRemoved--


Awesome job guys, love this: --LinkRemoved--

However, I don't think the computation of "long-term, full-time" is done right. Some schools (*cough* NYU) count law school funded positions as long-term, full-time. Others (e.g. Penn) don't count them as long-term, full-time. NYU comes out looking great with 90%, but once you take out the unemployment fellowships, you're looking at a much more average 78%.


I agree. It's fantastic work.

It's hard to break out this school-funded issue. The ABA format is great for catching it.

I think this is on the schools...or the ABA...for not being consistent. It seems like some of the schools may be gaming the categories once again.


Is it? The ABA PDF forms break the "school funded" into long-term/short-term and full-time/part-time. You could subtract "full-time, long-term" school-funded from the overall "full-time, long-term" JD-required category. Or maybe that's too much post-processing for what is supposed to be more of a neutral tool?

It really makes a huge difference--UVA and it's 94% long-term, full-time looks pretty great!

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:50 pm

I mean, long term is "long term." Maybe the "Bar required" issue won't hunt (I still think it could...). But to come back to "long term":

is it really in good faith to report a job that lasts 366 days as "long term." Does any reasonable person of ordinary notions think that's a "long term" job?

That is probably why some schools choose to report these jobs as short term (like Penn and Michigan) and others to report them as long term (like the above). The school funded positions between these schools are almost certainly the same jobs, but some schools choose the ethical high ground.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby jenesaislaw » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:50 pm

rayiner wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:Law School Transparency's Data Clearinghouse is live for all schools for the class of 2011. --LinkRemoved--


Awesome job guys, love this: --LinkRemoved--

However, I don't think the computation of "long-term, full-time" is done right. Some schools (*cough* NYU) count law school funded positions as long-term, full-time. Others (e.g. Penn) don't count them as long-term, full-time. NYU comes out looking great with 90%, but once you take out the unemployment fellowships, you're looking at a much more average 78%.


A few things. First, there's really no choice for the long-term, full-time rate. It's a straight calculation and this is how the definitions work. Interestingly, NALP introduced a new feature for the 2011 data. It now distinguishes among long-term jobs. They're either (a) for a definite duration of at least one year; or (b) for an indefinite duration. When we request NALP reports from schools, we will be able to distinguish things better.

Second, this is actually a more applicable criticism of our Employment Score. It is something we thought long and hard about keeping out of the score. Ultimately, there are two reasons we didn't, with one being extremely convincing (in my opinion) and the second being a reason that makes me sigh and shrug my shoulders.

(1) We cannot assume that all school-funded jobs are bar-required jobs across the board. That is, for some schools we can deduce this because too few people are in non bar-required jobs to account for all school-funded jobs. We toyed with making this assumption, but after I spoke with Jim Leipold (exec. director of NALP) about this, we decided we couldn't make the assumption. For us, it is totally compelling to keep them in because we cannot make this assumption (and need it to make the translation perfectly).

(2) If we start excluding these jobs (we did exclude solos), how do we distinguish these jobs from clerkships? It'd be absurd to exclude federal clerkships; and it'd be in advisable to distinguish between federal and state clerkships, even if the federal jobs are significantly more competitive. But the score isn't about being competitive; it's about being on a path to a career. And for many states, state clerkships serve that role. Less compelling, but still compelling in my opinion.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby jenesaislaw » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:52 pm

manofjustice wrote:That is probably why some schools choose to report these jobs as short term (like Penn and Michigan) and others to report them as long term (like the above). The school funded positions between these schools are almost certainly the same jobs, but some schools choose the ethical high ground.


While I do think it was a deliberate attempt to game the new standards, few schools can afford to do this. Not that Penn/Michigan can't afford it, but it's likely they're not the same jobs on some important criteria. To say it's a distinction without a difference is something we can debate, but there's good arguments on both sides.

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:00 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:
manofjustice wrote:That is probably why some schools choose to report these jobs as short term (like Penn and Michigan) and others to report them as long term (like the above). The school funded positions between these schools are almost certainly the same jobs, but some schools choose the ethical high ground.


While I do think it was a deliberate attempt to game the new standards, few schools can afford to do this. Not that Penn/Michigan can't afford it, but it's likely they're not the same jobs on some important criteria. To say it's a distinction without a difference is something we can debate, but there's good arguments on both sides.


Well, we don't know. That's the purpose of transparency, to prompt questions and to get answers. As far as LST, it's fine, because the school-funded rate is posted right with the employment score. The six scores below the three main ones (FT Legal, School Funded, etc.) are serving their purpose as "warning indicators" prompting an examination of the data.

At this point, the schools need to pony up: what in the world are these unprecedented, first-of-thier-kind jobs? We need to know ASAP.

If you exclude these school-funded positions (which, by definition are "fake," because they wouldn't exist without an institution not in the business of doing legal work creating them with money that was never intended to pay for legal services), the T14 essentially collapses in 2011. That's big news.

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manofjustice
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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:26 pm

rayiner wrote:
manofjustice wrote:
rayiner wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:Law School Transparency's Data Clearinghouse is live for all schools for the class of 2011. --LinkRemoved--


Awesome job guys, love this: --LinkRemoved--

However, I don't think the computation of "long-term, full-time" is done right. Some schools (*cough* NYU) count law school funded positions as long-term, full-time. Others (e.g. Penn) don't count them as long-term, full-time. NYU comes out looking great with 90%, but once you take out the unemployment fellowships, you're looking at a much more average 78%.


I agree. It's fantastic work.

It's hard to break out this school-funded issue. The ABA format is great for catching it.

I think this is on the schools...or the ABA...for not being consistent. It seems like some of the schools may be gaming the categories once again.


Is it? The ABA PDF forms break the "school funded" into long-term/short-term and full-time/part-time. You could subtract "full-time, long-term" school-funded from the overall "full-time, long-term" JD-required category. Or maybe that's too much post-processing for what is supposed to be more of a neutral tool?

It really makes a huge difference--UVA and it's 94% long-term, full-time looks pretty great!


It does make a huge difference, I'll grant you that. And if some schools chose an ethical high ground, they are being punished in the employment score, and if their school funded rate is the same, but just reported as short term, you'd have to compare ABA formats to realize that one school isn't doing substantially better than another.

I think an asterisk would work better than changing the employment score. It's like Barry Bonds. He hit home runs; ya can't say he didn't. An asterisk, and better definition of "long term" by the ABA, would put to rest this latest machination. It would also draw specific attention to the strategies schools are employing, serving the goal of transparency.

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Re: Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25)

Postby de5igual » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:22 pm

wow...Vandy and USC really did weather this storm pretty well relative to other schools, and GULC looks more than ever a peer of the sub-T14 crowd




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