Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

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1776
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Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:40 pm

Amended costs.

Pitt would cost $9k a yr total-$27k
LC $20/yr
WL would be around $30/yr.

Took 3x, did not get extended time despite a disability. My gpa is too low to get enough (3.6) $ from a t14 if I killed the LSAT anyways. I would also like to do a semester in DC. I want to apply to the navy JAG, but I know it's hard to get accepted. Down the road I'd like to go back for a Phd in international relations or a similar field.

I want PI, therefore little debt. I also want to clerk. I'd be happy as a public defender or work somewhere like the innocence project, etc.

I am from PGH, and wouldn't mind staying, but there are issues with being close to many criminal friends. Pitt owns the pgh market and I know people who got great jobs on DC. Students said most people keep their scholarships. Has a great LRAP- up to $3,000 a yr if your family makes less than 4x the poverty line. Worried about being around some of my trouble making friends.

I would be willing to move to Portland permanently. Worried I may not have enough ties. Don't know if i can tolerate how liberal it is. But I love portland.

WL: I really like the honor code and the clerk rate. i personally don't think it's worth paying close to sticker, because I don't want big law. I don't want NYC or Chicago or anything. Just want a job I'd enjoy.

I want to limit debt.

I have little debt from undergrad (<$7 when by august).
Last edited by 1776 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:46 pm

Pitt may "own" PGH, but that doesn't mean a whole lot, given that the Burgh is a smaller secondary market. Given your options, I would definitely advise sticking to Pitt. Lawl skool is not the time to bank on creating ties.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:38 pm

HeavenWood wrote:Pitt may "own" PGH, but that doesn't mean a whole lot, given that the Burgh is a smaller secondary market. Given your options, I would definitely advise sticking to Pitt. Lawl skool is not the time to bank on creating ties.


PSU has some connections, Duquesne has awful prospects right now. I was wondering if I could get a job in Portland. It is a city I actually want to move to...for the long term. If I stayed there year round and did and worked there in the summer, would it help? If I do well at Pitt, I have some options in bigger markets.

What level should I keep my debt below for PI?

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby ze2151 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:41 pm

do something else with your life. that is honestly the most humane advice anyone can give you. none of those options are winners.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:45 pm

1776 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Pitt may "own" PGH, but that doesn't mean a whole lot, given that the Burgh is a smaller secondary market. Given your options, I would definitely advise sticking to Pitt. Lawl skool is not the time to bank on creating ties.


PSU has some connections, Duquesne has awful prospects right now. I was wondering if I could get a job in Portland. It is a city I actually want to move to...for the long term. If I stayed there year round and did and worked there in the summer, would it help? If I do well at Pitt, I have some options in bigger markets.

What level should I keep my debt below for PI?

Pitt will not serve very well in taking you outside of its immediate region. None of these schools will. Is it strictly impossible? No. Will it be an uphill climb? Most definitely.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:34 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
1776 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Pitt may "own" PGH, but that doesn't mean a whole lot, given that the Burgh is a smaller secondary market. Given your options, I would definitely advise sticking to Pitt. Lawl skool is not the time to bank on creating ties.


PSU has some connections, Duquesne has awful prospects right now. I was wondering if I could get a job in Portland. It is a city I actually want to move to...for the long term. If I stayed there year round and did and worked there in the summer, would it help? If I do well at Pitt, I have some options in bigger markets.

What level should I keep my debt below for PI?

Pitt will not serve very well in taking you outside of its immediate region. None of these schools will. Is it strictly impossible? No. Will it be an uphill climb? Most definitely.


I thought I was pretty clear I'd be happy in Pittsburgh or Portland. DC is the only other place I'd consider living, and I know a good number of Pitt people who wanted to work there, and got jobs there. But it's not even close to a DC or bust mentality. I'm looking to stay in the city where I attend law school.

I had a serious injury a little bit ago that is a legitimate disability, but since I can't get accomodations due to money issues, my score won't blow through the roof. My GPA is only a 3.6, so I won't get enough money at a national school that would make sense for someone who wants a low paying PI job in PGH.

I calculated my debt at the very most to be $60,000 and my IBR is pretty damn low- less than $300 on a $40,000 salary. I don't think that's bad, and my debt won't be that high with Pitt. Is that a manageable level? I don't want to feel pressured to find a high paying job.

I never wanted bid law, and honestly I don't really want to leave PGH unless it was the right type of city or school. I guess I feel a little better when reading threads of people going to regional schools with $70,000+ debt.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I just want to know that's a reasonable level. I'm ready to get back to school and get away from the sleeziness in the work force.


ze2151 wrote:do something else with your life. that is honestly the most humane advice anyone can give you. none of those options are winners.


No, you're wrong. Stop being so dramatic.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:42 pm

1776 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
1776 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Pitt may "own" PGH, but that doesn't mean a whole lot, given that the Burgh is a smaller secondary market. Given your options, I would definitely advise sticking to Pitt. Lawl skool is not the time to bank on creating ties.


PSU has some connections, Duquesne has awful prospects right now. I was wondering if I could get a job in Portland. It is a city I actually want to move to...for the long term. If I stayed there year round and did and worked there in the summer, would it help? If I do well at Pitt, I have some options in bigger markets.

What level should I keep my debt below for PI?

Pitt will not serve very well in taking you outside of its immediate region. None of these schools will. Is it strictly impossible? No. Will it be an uphill climb? Most definitely.


I thought I was pretty clear I'd be happy in Pittsburgh or Portland. DC is the only other place I'd consider living, and I know a good number of Pitt people who wanted to work there, and got jobs there. But it's not even close to a DC or bust mentality. I'm looking to stay in the city where I attend law school.

I had a serious injury a little bit ago that is a legitimate disability, but since I can't get accomodations due to money issues, my score won't blow through the roof. My GPA is only a 3.6, so I won't get enough money at a national school that would make sense for someone who wants a low paying PI job in PGH.

I calculated my debt at the very most to be $60,000 and my IBR is pretty damn low- less than $300 on a $40,000 salary. I don't think that's bad, and my debt won't be that high with Pitt. Is that a manageable level? I don't want to feel pressured to find a high paying job.

I never wanted bid law, and honestly I don't really want to leave PGH unless it was the right type of city or school. I guess I feel a little better when reading threads of people going to regional schools with $70,000+ debt.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I just want to know that's a reasonable level. I'm ready to get back to school and get away from the sleeziness in the work force.

You'd have trouble finding a decent job in either market. The reason I recommended Pitt over L&C is that from what I've gathered, you have no preexisting ties to Portland, something that would raise eyebrows for quite a few local employers. Gone are the days that you can just go to law school in a secondary market and just magically generate ties. As for "reasonable debt levels," that will depend on the state of your finances and each individual school's LRAP.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby dr123 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:46 pm

If you think Portland's too liberal, just wait till you go to Eugene.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:47 am

[/quote]
You'd have trouble finding a decent job in either market. The reason I recommended Pitt over L&C is that from what I've gathered, you have no preexisting ties to Portland, something that would raise eyebrows for quite a few local employers. Gone are the days that you can just go to law school in a secondary market and just magically generate ties. As for "reasonable debt levels," that will depend on the state of your finances and each individual school's LRAP.[/quote]

I gave you an example with Pitt, and asked if that were doable. Again, $40,000 debt, $40,000 income, up to $3,300k/yr in forgiveness on a $300/mth IBR payback plan. Is that reasonable?

The people I know at Pitt aren't having that hard a time getting decent jobs. I just want to make enough to not be struggling and to be fiancially stable and independent.

It depends on what you mean by "decent." I consider decent comfortable and being able to pay loans and bills off without worrying. Then again, I spent the last couple years of my life thinking I had a lot of money if I had more than $400 in my bank. If you think decent is $70,000+, maybe that's different. I've lived in PGH all my life, and I guess I see the market in a different state than you do. I'm guessing what you mean by decent is different though. I talked to a lot of Pitt students, and they aren't that pessimistic at all. The Pitt grads I know found jobs pretty quickly. I'm not saying you're gaurenteed a job at all.



How do I go about moving then? I love PGH, but I may have to move given some recent events. I did explain this to L&C.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby thexfactor » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:35 am

1776 wrote:Pitt would cost $15k a yr total as of now(asked to increase offer)
Negotiating with LC now, wouldn't go if it were more than $5k more a yr than Pitt
WL as of now no offer (don't think it's worth that much more than Pitt)

Took 3x, did not get extended time despite a disability due to the crazy cost to get testing done. Can't retake. My gpa is too low to get enough $ from a t14 if I killed the LSAT anyways. I would also like to do a semester in DC. I want to apply to the navy JAG, but I know it's hard to get accepted. Down the road I'd like to go back for a Phd in international relations or a similar field.

I want PI, therefore little debt. I also want to clerk. I'd be happy as a public defender or work somewhere like the innocence project, etc.

I am from PGH, and wouldn't mind staying, but there are issues with being close to many criminal friends. Pitt owns the pgh market and I know people who got great jobs on DC. Students said most people keep their scholarships. Has a great LRAP- up to $3,000 a yr if your family makes less than 4x the poverty line. Worried about being around some of my trouble making friends.

I would be willing to move to Portland permanently, because I want to restart my life. Worried I may not have enough ties. Don't know if i can tolerate how liberal it is. But I love portland. I'm hoping the money works out.

WL: I really like the honor code and the clerk rate. i personally don't think it's worth paying close to sticker, because I don't want big law. I don't want NYC or Chicago or anything. Just want a job I'd enjoy.
I want to limit debt, still waiting to hear back from Oregon, a little cheaper than LC.

I have little debt from undergrad.


I think the best option is to retake and go to a better school.

You claim that you just want a job that you will enjoy. The problem is that there are very few "midlaw" firms that allow you to work 40-50 hrs for 70-100k. Usually these jobs are just as hard to get as biglaw. Most of the "midlaw" firms take very few summer associates.

Furthermore, many of the small law places that pay 30-40k will make you work just as hard if not harder than associates at big firms like K+L gates or Reed Smith.

If you don't want to retake. I would consider going to WL. I think WL is 30-35k a year? Since you already have ties to Pitt, I think it will give you a better shot at going back. ( ie big firms firms will prob interview top 20% WL students as compared to only top 10% Pitt students. Some midsized firms might be willing to go down even more at WL.)

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:22 am

I think Pitt is the correct choice here. Look, if you really want to live in Portland save up some $ and move to Portland. Law school is not the way to restart your life unless you want your new life to have six figures of non-dischargeable debt. I am not sure what personal issues are making you hesitant to go to Pitt but if you really can stomach making the payments on 80K of debt with a likely salary of 40-50K, then by all means go for it.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:23 am

thexfactor wrote:
1776 wrote:


I think the best option is to retake and go to a better school.

You claim that you just want a job that you will enjoy. The problem is that there are very few "midlaw" firms that allow you to work 40-50 hrs for 70-100k. Usually these jobs are just as hard to get as biglaw. Most of the "midlaw" firms take very few summer associates.

Furthermore, many of the small law places that pay 30-40k will make you work just as hard if not harder than associates at big firms like K+L gates or Reed Smith.

If you don't want to retake. I would consider going to WL. I think WL is 30-35k a year? Since you already have ties to Pitt, I think it will give you a better shot at going back. ( ie big firms firms will prob interview top 20% WL students as compared to only top 10% Pitt students. Some midsized firms might be willing to go down even more at WL.)[/quote

Like I said in the OP, I am not elgible to take the LSAT again. And, like I said in the OP, I had an injury that limits my score, and I can not afford the testing to get extended time.

I never said I cared about how many hours I worked or how much I make. All I care about is whether I like what I'm doing. I want to clerk and go in to PI. Is limiting debt the biggest factor? Is W&L worth 2-3 times as much as Pitt? Like I said, I'm looking to stay where I go to law school. Not really looking for a big market. And, like I said, I don't want big law or corporate law at all, so I don't know why I should factor in what percentage of the class big firms interview.

Based on my interested, PI and clerking, should I focus mostly on cost?

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:27 am

timbs4339 wrote:I think Pitt is the correct choice here. Look, if you really want to live in Portland save up some $ and move to Portland. Law school is not the way to restart your life unless you want your new life to have six figures of non-dischargeable debt. I am not sure what personal issues are making you hesitant to go to Pitt but if you really can stomach making the payments on 80K of debt with a likely salary of 40-50K, then by all means go for it.


I'm pretty sure I said I'd only go to LC if it were , at most, $5K more than Pitt...which would keep the debt figure below $50K...so I don't know where that $80K of debt came from...

Law school is a fresh start. Why not go to a school I'm interested in attending in a place I want to rellocate? I want to go to law school and move away (my friends are having a lot of legal problems and I get dragged in to them), not just move away. All I'm asking is if I want to practice law in Portland, and move there, what do I need to do? Again, I don't know where the six figures of debt comes from when I clearly stated I wouldn't pay more than $5k extra to go to LC...leaving the debt below $50k. Care to explain how your number is hovering at $80k-$100K for LC. That would probably be the number at WL. Please read my post more carefully.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby sidhesadie » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:54 am

But what are you going to live on?

If you're looking at 50K in total tuition cost for L&C, do you have a bunch of money saved up to live on? (I'm only using the L&C example because I live in PDX, the ? holds for the other schools too)

I guess if you're looking at doing the part time program so you could work full time during the day, otherwise won't you have to take loans for living expenses too? And the job market here is awful so I definitely wouldn't do that 'assuming' you're getting a job to cover expenses. (I don't know about the other markets but I can't imagine it's a lot better?)

Most people do, and that's where the higher figures come from. It isn't that people aren't reading your posts, its that we're all living this right now or already have, so have a more realistic idea of costs, time, getting jobs, etc.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:09 pm

1776 wrote:Based on my interested, PI and clerking, should I focus mostly on cost?

A combination of cost and ties. And by clerking, I assume you mean state/county court. Getting a federal gig is tough enough coming out of a T14, much less a TT.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:35 pm

The only school on this list that wouldn't likely end up in financial/career suicide is Pitt, and even that is risky at the price.

Also, HW is right. I hate when people say a school "owns" a particular small secondary market. Even if every job in Pittsburgh went to a Pitt grad (which isn't even close to the case), the school would be hard pressed to place all their students into decent jobs. There just aren't many jobs in markets like these, and a lot of jobs aren't very good.

And getting to Portland with no ties with a Pitt degree? Good luck.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:53 pm

sidhesadie wrote:But what are you going to live on?

If you're looking at 50K in total tuition cost for L&C, do you have a bunch of money saved up to live on? (I'm only using the L&C example because I live in PDX, the ? holds for the other schools too)

I guess if you're looking at doing the part time program so you could work full time during the day, otherwise won't you have to take loans for living expenses too? And the job market here is awful so I definitely wouldn't do that 'assuming' you're getting a job to cover expenses. (I don't know about the other markets but I can't imagine it's a lot better?)

Most people do, and that's where the higher figures come from. It isn't that people aren't reading your posts, its that we're all living this right now or already have, so have a more realistic idea of costs, time, getting jobs, etc.


$15k/yr is COA for me. I said it would cost me $15k/yr. That includes room and board. I didn't say $15k/tuition.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:55 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
1776 wrote:Based on my interested, PI and clerking, should I focus mostly on cost?

A combination of cost and ties. And by clerking, I assume you mean state/county court. Getting a federal gig is tough enough coming out of a T14, much less a TT.


I know Art. III are highly sought after. I mean any clerking experience. I plan on moving out west at some point.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:56 pm

1776 wrote:$15k/yr is COA for me. I said it would cost me $15k/yr. That includes room and board. I didn't say $15k/tuition.

Alright, well then if you are from Pittsburgh, this is a no brainer.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:The only school on this list that wouldn't likely end up in financial/career suicide is Pitt, and even that is risky at the price.


And getting to Portland with no ties with a Pitt degree? Good luck.


I said I would live where I went to law school. The goal is to move out west though. A few of my friends are in Oregon and CA and love it. That's why I asked if I plan on moving out there, would it make sense to go to LC or Oregon (yet to hear back, but cheaper than LC).

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:
1776 wrote:$15k/yr is COA for me. I said it would cost me $15k/yr. That includes room and board. I didn't say $15k/tuition.

Alright, well then if you are from Pittsburgh, this is a no brainer.


yeah, I thought saying 15k/yr total meant COA.

I'm not looking for a biglaw at all. Never was interested in that at any time in my life. I just want to be able to pay my bills on time and have enough to go to concerts, vacations, visits, out, etc without worrying, I can always switch jobs after I get experience. The Pitt students I talked to weren't freaking out about jobs. My GPA is a 3.6, but my LSAC is 3.5ish, so even with a great LSAT (can't get accommodations, so not worth it), I wouldn't be able to go to a T14 school with decent money...and taking out, IMO, over $60k when you want PI or gov is not smart.

I would only go to LC if COA was less than $20K.yr...but I do honestly want to move to Oregon.
Last edited by 1776 on Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:02 pm

1776 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:The only school on this list that wouldn't likely end up in financial/career suicide is Pitt, and even that is risky at the price.


And getting to Portland with no ties with a Pitt degree? Good luck.


I said I would live where I went to law school. The goal is to move out west though. A few of my friends are in Oregon and CA and love it. That's why I asked if I plan on moving out there, would it make sense to go to LC or Oregon (yet to hear back, but cheaper than LC).

And like romo said, if you want a legal job coming out of Pitt with no ties to the Pacific Northwest, that's going to be an extreme uphill climb. As in, if you could pull off something like that, I would pay you mad $$$ for #swag lessons.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:46 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
1776 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:The only school on this list that wouldn't likely end up in financial/career suicide is Pitt, and even that is risky at the price.


And getting to Portland with no ties with a Pitt degree? Good luck.


I said I would live where I went to law school. The goal is to move out west though. A few of my friends are in Oregon and CA and love it. That's why I asked if I plan on moving out there, would it make sense to go to LC or Oregon (yet to hear back, but cheaper than LC).

And like romo said, if you want a legal job coming out of Pitt with no ties to the Pacific Northwest, that's going to be an extreme uphill climb. As in, if you could pull off something like that, I would pay you mad $$$ for #swag lessons.


My question was more like this: I want to move to Oregon. Is it better to go to law school there now, or go to Pitt, work, then try to move?

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby flem » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:51 pm

1776 wrote:
My question was more like this: I want to move to Oregon. Is it better to go to law school there now, or go to Pitt, work, then try to move?


Then I'd go to L&C if it's cheap enough.

Or move out there now and reapply to Oregon as a resident.

Pitt will be you nowhere outside of Pittsburgh.

Outside of the T14, go to where you want to work.

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Re: Pitt, W&L, Lewis and Clark

Postby 1776 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:07 pm

flem wrote:
1776 wrote:
My question was more like this: I want to move to Oregon. Is it better to go to law school there now, or go to Pitt, work, then try to move?


Then I'd go to L&C if it's cheap enough.

Or move out there now and reapply to Oregon as a resident.

Pitt will be you nowhere outside of Pittsburgh.

Outside of the T14, go to where you want to work.


Is it reasonable to think once you have several years of work experience, like in other fields, that matters more than the school? As in, if I have a solid job for 5-9 years, would that be enough to move to a different city?




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