The Truth About Yale

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RedBirds2011
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:05 am

I think the obvious best school for placement is Cooley. I heard they are better than Yale.

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soj
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby soj » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:07 am

Wow! Consider me a Yale truther now!

Image

JasonR
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby JasonR » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:07 am

AttaBoy wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Actually both made HLS number one. Yale is equal to or less than Harvard in both regards, not vice versa. Unless of course you want to argue the current composition of the Supreme court favors Harvard due to size.


First of all, this is the stupidest metric in the world. Second of all: 5 HLS judges and 3 YLS. You're pretty dumb if you don't understand why that favors Yale.


New York City is more dangerous than New Orleans, since it has more than twice as many total murders per year. Don't you get it?

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RedBirds2011
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 am

soj wrote:Wow! Consider me a Yale truther now!

Image



You can't handle the truth about Yale!!!!

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Blessedassurance
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:12 am

By GDP per capita, Qatar, Luxemburg, Singapore, Norway, Brunei, Hong Kong and the United Arab Emirates rank ahead of the United States. You could say they are "richer than the United States".

Also, Yale produced Thomas, a genuine embarrassment to the free world.

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beachbum
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby beachbum » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:15 am

I heard that the bulk of Yale's expenditures/student is going towards Cambodian child labor in the production of Yale-branded Jordans for all tenured faculty. Confirm or deny?

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Elston Gunn
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Elston Gunn » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:18 am

Blessedassurance wrote:By GDP per capita, Qatar, Luxemburg, Singapore, Norway, Brunei, Hong Kong and the United Arab Emirates rank ahead of the United States. You could say they are "richer than the United States".

Also, Yale produced Thomas, a genuine embarrassment to the free world.


Are you asking "What is the best law school?" or "What law school should I attend?" Because, yes, the US is the richest country in the world, but you're more likely to have a lot of money if you're born in Dubai--so your unborn soul should choose Dubai!

What Harvard does is probably more impressive than what Yale does, considering class size. Yay for the administrators of Harvard, I guess? How does that help me?

JasonR
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby JasonR » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:25 am

Elston Gunn wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:By GDP per capita, Qatar, Luxemburg, Singapore, Norway, Brunei, Hong Kong and the United Arab Emirates rank ahead of the United States. You could say they are "richer than the United States".

Also, Yale produced Thomas, a genuine embarrassment to the free world.


Are you asking "What is the best law school?" or "What law school should I attend?" Because, yes, the US is the richest country in the world, but you're more likely to have a lot of money if you're born in Dubai--so your unborn soul should choose Dubai!

What Harvard does is probably more impressive than what Yale does, considering class size. Yay for the administrators of Harvard, I guess? How does that help me?


Beat me to it, for the most part. Except I consider what Yale does more impressive. More than 82% of Harvard's SCOTUS clerk total with a little more than a third as many students? Yeah, that's pretty incredible.

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Jaeger
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Jaeger » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:25 am

Blessedassurance wrote:By GDP per capita, Qatar, Luxemburg, Singapore, Norway, Brunei, Hong Kong and the United Arab Emirates rank ahead of the United States. You could say they are "richer than the United States".

Also, Yale produced Thomas, a genuine embarrassment to the free world.



Several of these countries only consider citizens and treat immigrant workers like slaves. Not compelling.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:30 am

JasonR wrote: Beat me to it, for the most part. Except I consider what Yale does more impressive. More than 82% of Harvard's SCOTUS clerk total with a little more than a third as many students? Yeah, that's pretty incredible.


They are clerking for Harvard grads for the most part. Also, people who can't do, teach.

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gaud
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby gaud » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:31 am

beachbum wrote:I heard that the bulk of Yale's expenditures/student is going towards Cambodian child labor in the production of Yale-branded Jordans for all tenured faculty. Confirm or deny?


Confirm.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Elston Gunn » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:33 am

JasonR wrote:Beat me to it, for the most part. Except I consider what Yale does more impressive. More than 82% of Harvard's SCOTUS clerk total with a little more than a third as many students? Yeah, that's pretty incredible.


That's true, but H also gets biglaw jobs for basically everyone of their million students who wants one (most), etc. Not to mention having basically the same medians as Y with 3X the students. But of course we agree on what matters.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Elston Gunn » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:34 am

Blessedassurance wrote:They are clerking for Harvard grads for the most part. Also, people who can't do, teach.


Again, what is your point? That the dean of Harvard should be really proud?

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Blessedassurance
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:46 am

Elston Gunn wrote: Again, what is your point? That the dean of Harvard should be really proud?


No, I believe HYS are interchangeable actually. I believe the OP's thesis is that each school has its advantages and whatnot and the USNWR cum TLS-invented "Yale-is-number-one-and-you-can-do-anything-coming-from-Yale mantra" is misguided.

I approve this message.

JasonR
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby JasonR » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:56 am

Elston Gunn wrote:
JasonR wrote:Beat me to it, for the most part. Except I consider what Yale does more impressive. More than 82% of Harvard's SCOTUS clerk total with a little more than a third as many students? Yeah, that's pretty incredible.


That's true, but H also gets biglaw jobs for basically everyone of their million students who wants one (most), etc. Not to mention having basically the same medians as Y with 3X the students. But of course we agree on what matters.


I know we're in agreement, and those are fair points, but I would say that the BigLaw stuff is self-selection. Hell, Cornell grads get great NYC BigLaw jobs. A good percentage of YLS students view BigLaw as a disappointing fall-back option to be taken when the more competitive, if less lucrative, options don't pan out. YLS grads who want BigLaw get what they want. I would also say that the fact that a certain LSAT/GPA level along with the ability to fog a mirror (exaggerating a little, of course) gives you a damn good shot at admission to HLS helps to explain the very similar medians, though I'll concede that it's still very impressive of Harvard to pull it off. However, if YLS adopted HLS's admissions model (meaning selection criteria, not class size), I don't think there's any doubt that YLS could have a 25/75 LSAT range of 175/178, or better.

Blessedassurance wrote:Also, people who can't do, teach.


Saying something that ridiculous doesn't help your case for HLS. Whatever you think of legal academia, there's no question that it's a far more difficult job to land than almost all of the firm jobs that most Harvard grads aim for.

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Tom Joad
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Tom Joad » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:04 am

Image
So many mad future HLS students. I am genuinely surprised at the level of butthurt.

Don't try to tell me YLS doesn't have the most talented, outstanding incoming classes:
3.83-3.96 170-177 vs. 3.78-3.97 171-176

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Blessedassurance
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:07 am

JasonR wrote: Saying something that ridiculous doesn't help your case for HLS. Whatever you think of legal academia, there's no question that it's a far more difficult job to land than almost all of the firm jobs that most Harvard grads aim for.


I meant that as a joke obviously but you could expand your argument to Public Interest jobs. That has more to do with Economics (supply and demand etc) for which we both have neither the time nor leisure to argue over.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:08 am

Don't try to tell me YLS doesn't have the most talented, outstanding incoming classes:
3.83-3.96 170-177 vs. 3.78-3.97 171-176[/quote]

:lol: :lol:

slsorhls
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby slsorhls » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:00 am

However, if YLS adopted HLS's admissions model (meaning selection criteria, not class size), I don't think there's any doubt that YLS could have a 25/75 LSAT range of 175/178, or better.


Actually, that would be impossible. Once you get to the tippytop of the pyramid, you're not going to have enough people with those numbers and high GPAs. You couldn't build a 50 person class, let alone 200.

It really is remarkable HLS has such high stats for such a large class. Whether or not another school can do it (Yale arguably could, Stanford would certainly drop significantly), HLS does it, and it's not just relevant for the dean. In fact, one of the most important considerations in choosing a law school is your fellow students.

Top caliber fellow students = better education.

Whatever you think of legal academia, there's no question that it's a far more difficult job to land than almost all of the firm jobs that most Harvard grads aim for.


I've seen this a few times now--that HLS people are solely going after firms. Not true at all. Harvard is not Columbia. Harvard truly is the most diverse in terms of career outcomes. If you are unsure whether you want to pursue academia, public interest, international stuff, even law to begin with, Harvard is your destination. Nothing compares to the HLS name in opening doors all over the world.

Meanwhile--and this is going to burst the TLS bubble--Yale is in fact narrowly focused on academia. They basically take from the same pool Harvard takes from with the exception that they particularly look for people who are well-suited for and interested in academia. I'm sure part of that is the fact that all the professors get involved in making the admissions decisions. The professors choose people who they would see as colleagues in the making. Arguably, it creates a class filled with overly academic, absorbed in books, disconnected from the real world folks.

Now, if academia is your thing, Yale is definitely the best choice. But the fact is that going to a small school known for a particular thing is going to be somewhat limiting. In fact, going to ANY small school, no matter how prestigious it is, is going to be limiting.

It's an exaggeration to talk about some obscure public defender role no one wants. Many people are interested in opportunities like Fenwick & West. We're talking about comparable salaries, better working conditions, and the opportunity to eventually join a startup and cash out in stock. There are many, many reasons why someone would want a position at a firm like that.

And it's a fact that they don't do OCI at Yale. Why? It's a small school.

TLS is filled with people talking about the benefits of small schools. But there are also drawbacks. I'm sure everyone knows about the more commonly cited drawbacks (lack of course offerings, diversity of students, etc.), but there are also drawbacks to employment in certain ways. That's what I wanted to point out here.

To be perfectly clear: the drawback really is the size itself. It's that simple. Fenwick doesn't bother because there aren't enough people interested to justify the trip out there. But they go to Harvard because of the larger pool. If you're an employer who has the resources for just one trip, are you going to go to the place with 500 top people with diverse interests or the narrowly focused place with under 200? No reasonable employer would for a second ever think "oh, but Yale is so incredible and the best on the universe that we should of course go there instead of Harvard." Keep in mind that most employers are not just looking for intelligence or good grades, and the diversity of the large pool at Harvard ensures they can find all the traits they're looking for.

I found this by accident and out of curiosity while looking at the Fenwick website, by the way. But we don't really need that example. Anyone can look at the respective websites and see that HLS's OCI has way more firms than Yale's or Stanford's.

And to add another example of an employment-related drawback to a small school, it's a fact that partners end up hiring people like themselves. And I wouldn't be surprised if one's alma mater plays a role in that. A lot of employment results that can't be explained by self-selection could easily be explained by partners having a preference for their own schools. Obviously, for this issue we would look to the pure numbers, not percentages.

That's not even referencing the fact that, again, if you are interested in the widest possible opportunities, a school like HLS will have more people situated across the globe ready to connect you. Again, it's pure numbers. That's always going to be a disavantage of a school like Yale or Stanford. You can make the argument all day that Stanford or Yale alumni will be more committed to helping fellow alumni, but if you end up looking for something more rare (like Fenwick or a job in some far corner of the globe) HLS will have a big advantage.

slsorhls
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby slsorhls » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:04 am

Don't try to tell me YLS doesn't have the most talented, outstanding incoming classes:
3.83-3.96 170-177 vs. 3.78-3.97 171-176
[/quote]

Those numbers are basically equal. When you couple that with the fact that the Harvard group is so much larger, Harvard gets the clear advantage. Harvard just has more of the talented, outstanding students. Yale has a particular subset of that group that is largely focused on academia.

From an employer's perspective, I'm obviously going to be focused on Harvard. That's where I'll go first to meet people and recruit.

slsorhls
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby slsorhls » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:23 am

National OCI Statistics
Total Law Firms (2007): 683

Total Law Firms (2007): 388


I think it's obvious which school is which.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby JusticeHarlan » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:02 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
Samara wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Samara wrote: Yale still places the best in meaningful employment metrics.


We eagerly await your source(s) for the above, with rapt attention
.

There's plenty of threads on this and I'm on my phone. Any differences between Yale, Harvard and Stanford are trivial anyway. I'm not interested in splitting hairs like this.


This is like the standard argument from evangelicals who direct you to a quotation in the Bible every time you challenge their beliefs.

Give me a credible source independent of a TLS thread or a thread with the relevant links.

I do however agree that the differences are trivial and not worth splitting hairs over.

"I demand exact measurements of the length of each hair. Not that I think it's worth splitting hairs about it, of course."

What a great thread. Thanks OP, I guess your Yale rejection served the greater good.

anstone1988
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby anstone1988 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:43 am

fanmingrui wrote:Yale is best for anything in the world, period.


Harvard is the best for anything, including law, in the world. Want "proof"? - http://www.topuniversities.com/universi ... iences/law

None of HYS is superior to another, period.

JasonR
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby JasonR » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:23 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:This is like the standard argument from evangelicals who direct you to a quotation in the Bible every time you challenge their beliefs.

Give me a credible source independent of a TLS thread or a thread with the relevant links.

I do however agree that the differences are trivial and not worth splitting hairs over.

"I demand exact measurements of the length of each hair. Not that I think it's worth splitting hairs about it, of course."

What a great thread. Thanks OP, I guess your Yale rejection served the greater good.


Haha, no question. This thread really delivered. That last 800+ word bunch of fail from the OP was just outstanding.

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bk1
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Re: The Truth About Yale

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:32 am

slsorhls wrote:Fenwick doesn't bother because there aren't enough people interested to justify the trip out there. But they go to Harvard because of the larger pool.


You have no proof of this, it's just your personal hypothesis.

Why does Fenwick go to UCLA but not USC?
Why does Fenwick go to NU/UChi and the CCBA yet only goes to NYU for tax and does not go to CLS?

I could come up with reasons for all of Fenwick's OCI campus choices but it would be pure conjecture. You are just talking out of your ass.




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