William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

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srfngdd6
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby srfngdd6 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:25 pm

not a personal attack it was pretty up front to me it broke down how many were employed in a post grad fellowship at grad and 9 months out and also what that meant...WL gives more info then WM not saying its a good or bad thing tehres just more to go through to get to the most important numbers

anan
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby anan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:05 pm

I guess. Let me put this to you, and you tell me what is honest. WM has superior numbers to WL in every category factored by USNews into its grading system, except for reputation, which is a tie between the schools at 3.8. The one factor that WL is superior in, is employment. If you take away school employment, which, for WL shows an embarrassing 48 % at graduation, and 9 months of 80%, vs WM, who employs no students by itself, because that isnt why people go to law school… WM has a graduation employment in the 70's and 9 mo at 87 %. Nevertheless, WL is ranked 11 spots above WM…. So because the school employs 41 % of its students at graduation and 10% at 9 mo… it gets to be 11 spots higher. It may not be dishonest, but it is certainly not right. US News says it will not take into account school funded employment next year… that does not leave W&L in a very good position.

coocookuhchoo
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby coocookuhchoo » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:14 pm

anan wrote:I guess. Let me put this to you, and you tell me what is honest. WM has superior numbers to WL in every category factored by USNews into its grading system, except for reputation, which is a tie between the schools at 3.8. The one factor that WL is superior in, is employment. If you take away school employment, which, for WL shows an embarrassing 48 % at graduation, and 9 months of 80%, vs WM, who employs no students by itself, because that isnt why people go to law school… WM has a graduation employment in the 70's and 9 mo at 87 %. Nevertheless, WL is ranked 11 spots above WM…. So because the school employs 41 % of its students at graduation and 10% at 9 mo… it gets to be 11 spots higher. It may not be dishonest, but it is certainly not right. US News says it will not take into account school funded employment next year… that does not leave W&L in a very good position.


Do you go to WM? And I thought I remembered them being tied for both reputation amongst peers and reputation amongst lawyers and judges. Do you have anything to back up WM's not hiring any grads? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I just have a decision to make and I want to make sure I have accurate info.

tennisking88
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby tennisking88 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:15 pm

anan wrote:I guess. Let me put this to you, and you tell me what is honest. WM has superior numbers to WL in every category factored by USNews into its grading system, except for reputation, which is a tie between the schools at 3.8. The one factor that WL is superior in, is employment. If you take away school employment, which, for WL shows an embarrassing 48 % at graduation, and 9 months of 80%, vs WM, who employs no students by itself, because that isnt why people go to law school… WM has a graduation employment in the 70's and 9 mo at 87 %. Nevertheless, WL is ranked 11 spots above WM…. So because the school employs 41 % of its students at graduation and 10% at 9 mo… it gets to be 11 spots higher. It may not be dishonest, but it is certainly not right. US News says it will not take into account school funded employment next year… that does not leave W&L in a very good position.


I generally agree but didn't think US News explicitly said it wouldn't count that type of employment anymore. Do you have a link?


anan
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby anan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:46 pm

William and Mary reported under the new ABA requirements and reported 0 school funded positions, which is a question on the USNews survey.

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CwallXC322
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby CwallXC322 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:10 am

anan wrote:I guess. Let me put this to you, and you tell me what is honest. WM has superior numbers to WL in every category factored by USNews into its grading system, except for reputation, which is a tie between the schools at 3.8. The one factor that WL is superior in, is employment. If you take away school employment, which, for WL shows an embarrassing 48 % at graduation, and 9 months of 80%, vs WM, who employs no students by itself, because that isnt why people go to law school… WM has a graduation employment in the 70's and 9 mo at 87 %. Nevertheless, WL is ranked 11 spots above WM…. So because the school employs 41 % of its students at graduation and 10% at 9 mo… it gets to be 11 spots higher. It may not be dishonest, but it is certainly not right. US News says it will not take into account school funded employment next year… that does not leave W&L in a very good position.


Why tell you what's honest, when you already tell me it's not dishonest?

First let me start off by saying the US news rankings are arbitrary and misguiding when one is choosing a law school. W&L and W&M are peer schools.

Image

W&L has a better faculty ratio and better library resources, so W&M isn't "superior" in every 'US News' category.

The post-grad fellowship, as explained on the school website, is not employment by the school but rather a stipend from the school.

"As mentioned above, the positions students are engaged in during the program must be law-related. For example, we had students from the Class of 2010 working in legal services offices in Virginia and Florida, as a legislative aid intern in a congressional office, for the National Trust for Historic Preservation, and doing corporate governance and immigration work for Fathers for the Fatherless."

Counting them in legal employment is a plus for the school, but it also allows students to take unpaid positions to gain experience in a field that they self select in.


Also, if US news does not count these fellowships as employment, then you're correct in assuming that W&L will go down in the rankings. But honestly, who cares if W&L "gets to be 11 spots higher."

I do not think it is misleading or 'wrong' for W&L to have their post-graduate program to help out students who are taking unpaid positions. It is clearly written out on the website and in the employment data, so unless you're basing your entire school decision off the US news rankings you won't be misled. And if that's the case, law school probably isn't right for you.

From the W&M A/WL/D thread
wired wrote:
I should also say that these short term fellowships aren't necessarily bad - they can be good, especially to tide over people as they try to get jobs. (W&M has one for students who just graduated until about 3 months after the bar with the theory being that it helps those students to qualify for jobs that require bar-passage.) Whether you think the programs that hire people for a short-term period (four to six weeks) during the time that rankings calculates employment at nine months is good or deceiving, the real issue is that it skews their employment numbers high compared to how things will be calculated down the road.




Bottom line is an employer is going to view a 3.6 from W&L the same as a 3.6 from W&M from my understanding.





Disclaimer: likely headed to Lexington in the fall, and couldn't be happier.

coocookuhchoo
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby coocookuhchoo » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:25 am

CwallXC322 wrote:
Why tell you what's honest, when you already tell me it's not dishonest?

First let me start off by saying the US news rankings are arbitrary and misguiding when one is choosing a law school. W&L and W&M are peer schools.

Image

W&L has a better faculty ratio and better library resources, so W&M isn't "superior" in every 'US News' category.

The post-grad fellowship, as explained on the school website, is not employment by the school but rather a stipend from the school.

"As mentioned above, the positions students are engaged in during the program must be law-related. For example, we had students from the Class of 2010 working in legal services offices in Virginia and Florida, as a legislative aid intern in a congressional office, for the National Trust for Historic Preservation, and doing corporate governance and immigration work for Fathers for the Fatherless."

Counting them in legal employment is a plus for the school, but it also allows students to take unpaid positions to gain experience in a field that they self select in.


Also, if US news does not count these fellowships as employment, then you're correct in assuming that W&L will go down in the rankings. But honestly, who cares if W&L "gets to be 11 spots higher."

I do not think it is misleading or 'wrong' for W&L to have their post-graduate program to help out students who are taking unpaid positions. It is clearly written out on the website and in the employment data, so unless you're basing your entire school decision off the US news rankings you won't be misled. And if that's the case, law school probably isn't right for you.

From the W&M A/WL/D thread
wired wrote:
I should also say that these short term fellowships aren't necessarily bad - they can be good, especially to tide over people as they try to get jobs. (W&M has one for students who just graduated until about 3 months after the bar with the theory being that it helps those students to qualify for jobs that require bar-passage.) Whether you think the programs that hire people for a short-term period (four to six weeks) during the time that rankings calculates employment at nine months is good or deceiving, the real issue is that it skews their employment numbers high compared to how things will be calculated down the road.




Bottom line is an employer is going to view a 3.6 from W&L the same as a 3.6 from W&M from my understanding.





Disclaimer: likely headed to Lexington in the fall, and couldn't be happier.


Appreciate the view from the other side. Were you considering WM? If so, why did you choose WL?

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CwallXC322
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby CwallXC322 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:34 am

coocookuhchoo wrote:
CwallXC322 wrote:
Why tell you what's honest, when you already tell me it's not dishonest?

First let me start off by saying the US news rankings are arbitrary and misguiding when one is choosing a law school. W&L and W&M are peer schools.

Image

W&L has a better faculty ratio and better library resources, so W&M isn't "superior" in every 'US News' category.

The post-grad fellowship, as explained on the school website, is not employment by the school but rather a stipend from the school.

"As mentioned above, the positions students are engaged in during the program must be law-related. For example, we had students from the Class of 2010 working in legal services offices in Virginia and Florida, as a legislative aid intern in a congressional office, for the National Trust for Historic Preservation, and doing corporate governance and immigration work for Fathers for the Fatherless."

Counting them in legal employment is a plus for the school, but it also allows students to take unpaid positions to gain experience in a field that they self select in.


Also, if US news does not count these fellowships as employment, then you're correct in assuming that W&L will go down in the rankings. But honestly, who cares if W&L "gets to be 11 spots higher."

I do not think it is misleading or 'wrong' for W&L to have their post-graduate program to help out students who are taking unpaid positions. It is clearly written out on the website and in the employment data, so unless you're basing your entire school decision off the US news rankings you won't be misled. And if that's the case, law school probably isn't right for you.

From the W&M A/WL/D thread
wired wrote:
I should also say that these short term fellowships aren't necessarily bad - they can be good, especially to tide over people as they try to get jobs. (W&M has one for students who just graduated until about 3 months after the bar with the theory being that it helps those students to qualify for jobs that require bar-passage.) Whether you think the programs that hire people for a short-term period (four to six weeks) during the time that rankings calculates employment at nine months is good or deceiving, the real issue is that it skews their employment numbers high compared to how things will be calculated down the road.




Bottom line is an employer is going to view a 3.6 from W&L the same as a 3.6 from W&M from my understanding.





Disclaimer: likely headed to Lexington in the fall, and couldn't be happier.


Appreciate the view from the other side. Were you considering WM? If so, why did you choose WL?


Yeah before my application process I had a few schools that I was targeting, both W&M and W&L were in my top 5. I received a full tuition scholarship offer from W&L so it immediately became my first choice. Being wl'd at W&M made the decision a little easier too, haha.

I come from a small town, so the advertised tight knit community among the law students and professors was a huge selling point for me.

But really, you can't go wrong with either of these schools. If I had gotten equal money from both schools it would be a very VERY difficult decision for me to make. I actually wouldn't be surprised if W&L went back down to 30 and W&M went up to 25 next year. W&L has historically been ranked higher, but recently W&M has climbed a few spots ahead. The rankings are so volatile that they are essentially worthless.

coocookuhchoo
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:14 pm

Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby coocookuhchoo » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:38 am

CwallXC322 wrote:
Yeah before my application process I had a few schools that I was targeting, both W&M and W&L were in my top 5. I received a full tuition scholarship offer from W&L so it immediately became my first choice. Being wl'd at W&M made the decision a little easier too, haha.

I come from a small town, so the advertised tight knit community among the law students and professors was a huge selling point for me.

But really, you can't go wrong with either of these schools. If I had gotten equal money from both schools it would be a very VERY difficult decision for me to make. I actually wouldn't be surprised if W&L went back down to 30 and W&M went up to 25 next year. W&L has historically been ranked higher, but recently W&M has climbed a few spots ahead. The rankings are so volatile that they are essentially worthless.


Weird that you got full at WL and wl'd at WM, considering how close they are. Congrats on free law school, though! I'm into both and with their respective schollys, they cost about the same. I went to WL last week and liked it more than anticipated, and I'm going to WM this week. From what I understand, they are so close it comes down to personal preference. Maybe I'll be joining you next year.

anan
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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:59 pm

Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby anan » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:56 pm

mrslaw2014 wrote:W&M's stats dropped almost solely on employment data as the rest of their stats rose. The school does not hire students to pad employment statistics. They are one one of the schools that is very transparent about employment data so check their website out.



This

tennisking88
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby tennisking88 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:16 pm

anan wrote: US News says it will not take into account school funded employment next year… that does not leave W&L in a very good position.


This (http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... -jobs-data ) does not say it will not take into account school funded employment next year. Also, as of now (http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... l-rankings), the 9mo. figure (.14) is weighted much more heavily than the "at graduation" figure (.04), so even if the "At grad" figure falls, it won't have a huge impact I don't think.

anan
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby anan » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:11 pm

If W&L's 9 mo. employment fell to 80, where it would be this year without school funded positions, it would fall into the mid 30's. Of course, everyone elses will go down as well, so it shouldnt fall nearly that far. William and mary's 9 month was the main thing that changed form last year, and that was a change of 5 % points…

wired
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Re: William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up

Postby wired » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:09 pm

W&M 2L here (the one quoted by the pro-W&L guy a few posts above)

1. W&M and W&L are peer schools for all intents and purposes. A few different firms court at the two different schools, but they get essentially the same coverage and have essentially the same outlook ex ante.

2. If you are making a decision about W&M v. W&L, ranking should not matter to you at all. You should be making decisions based on a lot of other factors, particularly aid packages, atmosphere, and preferences with regard to class size. Neither is showing a particularly strong upward or downward trajectory that is putting it on track to be at a different level then it is currently.

3. The poster above talking about W&M engaging in deceptive practices or W&L's honor code binding them to avoid deception has absolutely no clue what he or she is talking about. None at all. W&M is easily one of the most transparent schools. It is one of the one of the most highly ranked schools that releases its full NALP data on its website for students to see, complies with requests from Law School Transparency, and is generally a good school. W&L is not deceptive, but it's not because an honor code binds them to it, it's because of a culture of transparency that the admissions office has created.

4. If US News did not consider those employed by the school as employed for purposes of ranking, the following schools would likely fall to about W&M's spot or further - Washington, Notre Dame, W&L, Arizona State, Boston College, Fordham, Alabama, Georgia. Unsurprisingly, that puts W&M right back where it would have been.

5. UNC was also screwed because it chose not to employ students at the 9 month marker.

6. Hope to see some of you at ASW this weekend.




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