WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

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MKell
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WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby MKell » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:21 pm

I'm currently waiting on the bigger name universities to take me off the wait list. But I have to make my deposit and have to decide between my choices. (Retake is not an option) Location doesn't matter as I am comfortable in both boston and new york. I'm open to varied types of law and seeking the best chance at employment vs debt level is the main concern to me.

I have about 17k in undergraduate loans to give you an idea of my current debt level.

1) Northeastern total expense: 75k, I have a 20k merit based scholarship (no stips) w/ 10k need based. The major benefits I like about the University are the co-op program and campus. I'm concerned with the lack of grading at that university but feel that co-op program may be able to counteract that negative. I like boston a lot and could consider living their but its an added expense (est. included in the total expense) and i'm concerned about my debt level is somewhat high (employment is more my concern at every school.)

2) Cardozo total expense: 60k, 32k scholarship. (top 80% stip) The main concern here is i don't like the campus and I think its lack of a reputation in the NYC market could hurt me in the job hunt. I feel like fordham nyu and columbia dominate the new york market. The career services really didn't seem like they were on top of helping their students and i feel as if the unemployment risk is high and assume that New York is much more difficult of a law market then Boston as competition from out of state schools is exponentially greater.

3) St. john's full ride. (45full/50half/651/3 stip) My issues here are both personal and regarding employment. I went here for my ungrad and really didn't enjoy a lot of my undergraduate time at St.John's and feel as if the employment services out of the undergraduate program really hindered me in finding a job. I see the employment numbers out of St.John's are very low and this coupled with my undergrad experience makes me very close to eliminating them right away. The only stopping me is the full ride.


i'm very gun shy of putting close to 200k in at the waitlisted schools I mentioned even if I get in. So the advice on my current choices could go a long way.

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dingbat
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby dingbat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:33 pm

MKell wrote:I'm currently waiting on the bigger name universities to take me off the wait list. But I have to make my deposit and have to decide between my choices. (Retake is not an option) Location doesn't matter as I am comfortable in both boston and new york. I'm open to a varied types of law and seeking the best chance at employment vs debt level is the main concern to me.

I have about 17k in undergraduate loans to give you an idea of my current debt level.

1) Northeastern total expense: 75k, I have a 20k merit based scholarship (no stips) w/ 10k need based. The major benefits I like about the University are the co-op program and campus. I'm concerned with the lack of grading at that university but feel that co-op program may be able to counteract that negative. I like boston a lot and could consider living their but its an added expense and i'm concerned about my debt levels is somewhat high (employment is more my concern at every school.)

2) Cardozo total expense: 60k, 32k scholarship. (top 80% stip) The main concern here is i don't like the campus and I think it lack of a reputation in the NYC market could hurt me in the job hunt. I feel like fordham nyu and columbia dominate the new york market. The career services really didn't seem like they were on top of helping their students and i feel as if the unemployment risk is high and assume that New York is much more difficult of a law market then Boston as competition from out of state schools is exponentially greater.

3) St. john's full ride. (45full/50half/651/3 stip) My issues here are both personal and regarding employment. I went here for my ungrad and really didn't enjoy a lot of my undergraduate time at St.John's and feel as if the employment services out of the undergraduate program really hindered me in finding a job. I see the employment numbers out of St.John's are very low and this coupled with my undergrad experience makes me very close to eliminating them right away. The only stopping me is the full ride.


i'm very gun shy of putting close to 200k in at the waitlisted schools I mentioned even if I get in. So the advice on my current choices could go a long way.

Dozo is worth the extra money vs st johns, especially considering the stips there. Yes, you'll be lining up for the scraps not taken by Columbia, NYU & Fordham, not to mention other T14s and the top 5% of countless other schools, but Dozo does have alumni there and can get you a real law job (but don't expect to make real money). Dozo isn't a complete TTT, unlike the other schools you mentioned. But, it is a risk.
It's hard to make a case for Fordham at sticker, especially if you're not gunning for biglaw.
I wouldn't touch NE with a ten foot pole myself, but sm not as familiar with the local market to offer valuable insight

I hate to say it, but, have you considered retaking and trying again next year

MKell
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby MKell » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:40 pm

I'm really not interested in waiting another year. I have no possibility of raising my scores (I retook from a 154 and got a 165 after 6 months of studying.) and feel that I would be adding nothing to my application by waiting a year and trying again. I'm curious of the concern about Northeastern I read from so many posters, as I have visited their campus and was impressed by their co-op program and felt it would significantly increase my chance at finding a job. The co-op program pays you while you work throughout your 2nd or 3rd year in the field which could potentially lower the sticker cost.

Dozo to me vs northeastern is my main choice at this point but the attraction of no debt from St.Johns is keeping them in the race.

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dingbat
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby dingbat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:05 am

I just looked up Northeastern's employment statistics and it's not good.
Only about 3/4 got real law jobs (JD required) and when you discount those working in firms with less than 10 attorneys (I'm not gonna get into this now, but you should always discount this group) you're only talking half the class. That's pretty shitty odds of having a real job - and that's before discussing what type of work. Do you have very specific career goals, or a particular background that makes a JD from Northeastern a better proposition for you? If not, don't go

MKell
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby MKell » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:09 am

My undergraduate degree is in finance. I was originally looking for a degree in corporate law, however due to my options now i'm more open to going into governmental as I understand the difficulties of the current market in my current choices.

Edit: I just read some of the information on the stickied post, it's some good information that provides a good breakdown of the some of the data i've been reading that doesn't go into the depth that many other sites go into and the schools information doesn't provide. Judging by that information it would seem your assessment of cordozo being the best choice would be correct, as it gives me the highest probability of higher level employment w/ the lowest risk of downside. It's quite useful information as I was leaning northeastern as my choice however the amount of part-time and low level employment in comparison due to Cardozo is astounding and concerning. Some of this can be accounted for by their interest in PI however logically this defiantly deflates from the co-op program I was being pushed the last two days when I toured the campus.

I was under the impression from their provided data and the 40% employment from their co-op employment figures that they were most likely the safest chance at employment vs. cardozo higher chance at a larger salary. If I take the numbers provided on this site from an unbias source it would seem that this assumption is incorrect.
Last edited by MKell on Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby dingbat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:16 am

I'm too tired to go into this now, but hopefully someone else will explain important stuff to you

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dingbat
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby dingbat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:16 am

Northeastern's self-reported employment data is pretty shitty to begin with, so there's no need to see an outside source.
On a separate bits, I'm not sure you calculated your total costs correctly.
Northeastern's tuition is about $47k per year, so after $30k in scholarship money, you'll be paying $17k per year, or $51k over three years, in tuition alone. Add other law school costs (books, technology fee, etc) and cost of living and you're probably paying north of $100k to go there. That's crazy talk, considering how you'd be competing for jobs that pay $30-$40k per year.
Dozo gives you a slightly better scholly, but slightly higher cost of living, so the price tag is about the same (assuming you keep your scholly)
A Dozo grad can reasonably expect to make $50-60k, although the cost of living in NY is higher. Basically, all your options are risky; I just think Dozo isn't quite as bad a choice as Northeastern.

As someone who studied finance, you should run a cost/benefit analysis - what kind of job can you get now? Reasonable future wage increases?
For each law school, what kind of salary can I expect to get? What are my odds of getting nothing? What are reasonable wage increases? How much will it cost me? What's the interest on my student loan? What's the IRR of each of these options?
You may want to factor in future cost of living expenses or just multiply/divide by cost of living index to get a true(er) apples to apples comparison.

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dingbat
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby dingbat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:19 am

Good luck riding out the waitlists.

MKell
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby MKell » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:58 pm

Well cost of living factors are not an issue at cardozo, as I can live at home and pay nothing for room and board. Not sure where you got 48k per year at northeastern from all the paperwork including the financial aide paperwork provided its tuition is about 42k (exact number is 42940) with an estimated living cost of about 15000 dollars a year. 12k annually (36 total) with 81k when you take into account the cost of living. This coupled that I can take my co-ops in new york so I can live in new york for over a year of my time at northeastern and live at home. I was subtracting a slight total from the guaranteed money from where they take off the co-ops coupled with their estimates of how much you'd make. That's where I came to that conclusion. It seems that estimate of expense is rosy apparently. I would eliminate that as a choice with the new information I have been provided.

Cardozo, I have no living so 48k minus the 32k is about 48k. Although at cardozo I have transportation cost on the LIRR and subway that I wouldn't have in Boston. So I estimated the amount the train costs, so its about 60k. (I live pretty far out in long island.)

As my for current job prospects i've been unemployed as most of St.John's connections fell apart after the recession and I lost several internships I had lined up at lehman brothers and JPM during my tenure at st.john's when the crisis occurred and lehman went under. The financial field isn't much better then the legal field as older brokers are willing to take low paying jobs due to massive layoffs from the big firms. I'm boxed out a lot of times despite my high gpa/class rank due to the fact I lack job xp or a high end graduate degree (MBA/JD). So my job prospects currently about a year out of school, aren't very good as it is. I'm someone who was planning on working in finance for a few years and coming back to law and being able to pay off my bill. However due to the job market I was unable to go this route. As law was always my end game goal, i'm left with taking the best of my current options.

I'm well aware of the dilemmas of the job market but I have wanted to be a lawyer forever, and am well aware of the day-to-day of the field and the difficulties of the job market. While i prefer corporate law, I know that it's unlikely even out of my top 30 choices and am trying to weigh the benefit of the degree vs the cost as you said. (However my exact numbers appear to have been off, it's lovely trying to navigate with the falsified data all over the place.) It would seem the cost controlled calculated risk would seem to be cardozo at this point for me as it gives me the best chance of employment while keeping cost at a manageable level for the expense. I have a 165 lsat 3.7 gpa, I think it may be able to get cardozo to up my money as i'm above their upper mean in both categories. And probably have a good chance of getting off of fordham and william & mary's wait list. However i'm not sure its worth doubling my bill for a not huge bump in employment and a massive amount of negative back end risk.

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john1990
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby john1990 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:23 pm

dozo is the only school here that will give you a shot at corporate law.

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dingbat
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby dingbat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:57 pm

If you can get Dozo to up the schOlly, then that should end the discussion
Even if you get off the waitlist at Fordham, you're unlikely to get any money with those numbers and it's hard to justify spending an extra $100k+ vs Dozo.
I assume W&M and ND are the same story.

MKell
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby MKell » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:39 pm

Yep I tend to agree thanks for the advice helped a lot.

bobbyh1919
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Re: WL:Fordham,Notre Dame, W&M IN: ($$$)St.Johns ($$)Dozo ($$)NE

Postby bobbyh1919 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:37 pm

I would advise you not to pay sticker at any of the schools you're waitlisted at. Cardozo is probably the way to go here, although retake is also a good idea.




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